Silverton gave me BLUE BALLS !

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Originally posted by Yossarian
with respect to backcountry "skier compaction:"



However, just because you always see tracks on certain slopes in the b/c does not mean that it gets skied enough to significantly reduce avie danger. That's what we're saying. Skier compaction in the b/c, by which I mean, that some people consistently ski parts of a certain slope, doesn't cut it. A slab instability could be triggered next to the more heavily skied area, and the fracture could extend into the apparently "safe" area, for instance. Happens all the time. Also, what happens when a layer doesn't get skied, then gets buried? Or wait, how about, particularly in CO, UT, WY, MT, and interior BC, the development of depth hoar from within the snow pack, underneath it all, slowly eroding the strength of the pack from within? Exactly. Now we're getting it.

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I disagree. However, just because you see tracks down a BC line, it doesn't mean that it's completely safe either.

You have to remember that an area in the BC that is skied somewhat frequently gets cut up through every layer, while each layer is fresh. This displaces the energy in the snow, and decreases the load of slabs. (Of course, the slabs therefor aren't as big and don't weigh as much) Also, when other layers are exposed from ski tracks, the consistency of each of those layers changes as well due to exposure to air, wind, and temperature.

Your argument is null due to the inbounds ski runs that recieve below average amounts of traffic all year long, but are never groomed and don't get avalanche control. (especially 30-45 degrees)

Never seen ski patrol criss-cross a slope?? That's what they are doing, along with avoiding buried stumps.:D

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Originally posted by Yossarian
Or wait, how about, particularly in CO, UT, WY, MT, and interior BC....

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AHEM! *cough* Why is Planet Potatoe always overlooked? *COUGH* ;)

[baiting joshbu] While you were out watching your "extremo" companions try to straighline death cookies in the sun, I was out shralping the pow pow on untouched lines on the other side of the rich hgwy. [/baiting joshbu]

There has to be a good medium between safety and fun. Unfortunately it sounds like you had a hard time finding a guide who can find that medium, board. Farming turns in a narrow area sucks.

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Originally posted by The Reverend Floater
AHEM! *cough* Why is Planet Potatoe always overlooked? *COUGH* ;)

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Being from Idaho, you should figure out the spelling of potato. Rock on Mr. Quayle.

wow. Good honest write-up.

Over the holidays, a friend who has been there many times (in fact he's a jong on this board (HD)) and he said pretty much exactly what Board said: that he wouldn't go back until they made some improvements.

Hopefully they get the permits that they need so that hardcore skiers can get the turns that they deserve.

what would be neat is if they had an avie+bc course set up, so you could take their courses on their terrain, and at the end you had a more "open use" pass, so when you went they knew you had the knowledge+experience to go on some different terrain and further away from the guide.

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Originally posted by joshbu
Just generalizing here, but guided skiing OFTEN gives you blue balls. You could very easily take your report and replace "Silverton" with any number of heli, cat, and touring operations out there. They have to be super cautious (to the point of absurdity sometimes,) or else they would be sued out of existance.

edit: forgot some words...

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This is very true, but mediated most often and reliably by spending more than 5 hours with the guides / operation. I know how my experiences at Retallack have changed from the first year my brother and I spent 2 days there to where we are now having returned for the past 3 years for a full week with them. There is a mutual respect / trust / understanding that developes between a group and the guides that allow for risks to be assessed with differing perspectives. While on our forst visit for 2 days we needed to be babysat, last year it was non stop top to bottom skiing on nearly every run with only very loose guidelines as to where not to go when not in extremely risky terrain traveling to or from a line. We routinely dropped 20 footers and always were given the primo snow stashes to the point that if we found the goods we could vote to go back and session the same stash again. I'd wager that most Silverton groups are not cohesive in that they are made up of a bunch og strangers with varying levels of skill and experience. The guides can not be faulted for being overly cautious, if you want freedom go tour Red Mountain Pass, though I doubt you'd feel too safe up there mid winter.

Aaron Brill (the owner) sounds like he's looking at the big picture.
Advanced powdersluts like Board are the minority, and probably the most pissed off. I'm sure there are several Dentists that are happy with their experience there. Aarons goal is to make the mountain an A+ supersick lift served full on ski resort, and he's jumping through legal hoops right now. Board conveyed the frustration that the guides were feeling from the constant pressure they must feel by the "core" riders. The guides probably wish they could just go rip shit up too, and it doesn't make it any easier on them to be pushed by everyone else to do exactly what they want as well, but have been STRICTLY told not to do. If I was a guide, I'd be a little pissy too probably.

I also understand Boards POV. I'd be pissed as well, especially by being led around by someone with inferior skills, experience, etc. and not letting me ride the goods after shelling out $107, for the amount of vert he could have hiked in a day.

Sounds like we need to all sit back and let the Dentists pave the way to our future Utopia....

I thought that was well written and organized and a very interesting perspective. I can see the points of guiding from a safety perspective and the need to be ultra careful not to give the dissenters an accident to fuel their fight.

However I can't abide the apparent snow farming and saving of lines for staff or VIPs or whatever it's being saved for. Just plain limiting your skiing is lame too. Someone comment to give the operators a break. I'm aware they are in a fight with (local authorities?) and restrained as a result. BUT the flipside is they need to give their paying clients a break. If they want to foster the groundswell of support to counter the evil forces then they better offer a quality product to the hardened few that make the trip and lay down the bucks.

Getting caught offering bullshit rationale for not skiing a line is only going to foster cynical non believers posting their disgruntled views on the world web.......... Oh look!

They're in a fight to get permits but they can't loose sight of who their supporters are and when it comes down to it it's all about the skiing not what journalists can get fresh pow that's been saved through a drought.

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Originally posted by Blurred Elevens
Aaron Brill (the owner) sounds like he's looking at the big picture.
Advanced powdersluts like Board are the minority, and probably the most pissed off. I'm sure there are several Dentists that are happy with their experience there. Aarons goal is to make the mountain an A+ supersick lift served full on ski resort, and he's jumping through legal hoops right now. Board conveyed the frustration that the guides were feeling from the constant pressure they must feel by the "core" riders. The guides probably wish they could just go rip shit up too, and it doesn't make it any easier on them to be pushed by everyone else to do exactly what they want as well, but have been STRICTLY told not to do. If I was a guide, I'd be a little pissy too probably.

I also understand Boards POV. I'd be pissed as well, especially by being led around by someone with inferior skills, experience, etc. and not letting me ride the goods after shelling out $107, for the amount of vert he could have hiked in a day.

Sounds like we need to all sit back and let the Dentists pave the way to our future Utopia....

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Well said.

Agreed.

MD9,
thanks for the vote of confidence ! btw I personally think you'd pull your hair out there.

blurred you hit the nail on the head with the dentist comment. We slugged some beers with some Jersey dentists in the parking lot afterwards who from the way they were talking had just scored 3000' foot lines of cold smoke in the Chugach. On the other hand though we also talked to some middle of the road ( not " extremo mountain dudes like me and my crew :D ) skiers and boarders who were also under whelmed by the experience. all this being said I PRAY this place makes it.


btw way random comment from a skier in our group " This place makes me really miss what we had when Berthoud was open "

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Originally posted by Woodsy
Rev,
I disagree.
It has been mentioned over the last few days a lot from Andrew M, Bruce T. & the others on the UT avie report
Drew H from today:

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The main avie concern in the Cottonwood canyons has been extensive surface hoar. Perhaps hoar is more susceptible to skier compaction?

Well, I'll let you know what I think after next weekend!

One thing I thought when reading this is that Silverton is kindof advertised as lift-served backcountry. Plus part of their business is offering avy training, etc. Right? So whether or not there is skier compaction making the slopes more stable, I can imagine that they feel the need to use safe BC practices all the time - not only because they're responsible for keeping their clients safe, but because they want to set a good example for people to follow when they're out on their own in the BC in the future. So while it's frustratingly slow to ski one at a time and be in a group that REALLY has to keep track of each other, I can understand why they're doing it that way.

Turn farming does absolutely suck. I'll give you that, and it does sound like what they're doing. But without restrictions on where clients should be skiing, it isn't hard to imagine people taking off in the wrong direction because they think they see something good and getting separated or much, much worse. Sounds like they could make some improvements there though.

Anyway, I'm still psyched to go this weekend!

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Originally posted by altagirl


One thing I thought when reading this is that Silverton is kindof advertised as lift-served backcountry. Plus part of their business is offering avy training, etc. Right? So whether or not there is skier compaction making the slopes more stable, I can imagine that they feel the need to use safe BC practices all the time - not only because they're responsible for keeping their clients safe, but because they want to set a good example for people to follow when they're out on their own in the BC in the future. So while it's frustratingly slow to ski one at a time and be in a group that REALLY has to keep track of each other, I can understand why they're doing it that way.

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excellent point, altagirl!

Board,
Having just skied Silverton for the first time a couple of weeks ago, I can completely understand everything you've said. I felt somewhat dissapointed with my experience as well.
The first thing that I noticed (and granted, yes they are a new/grassroots area, but isn't too much to ask for when you're shelling out the kind of cash they are asking for) was the lack of organization when it came to getting people up on the mountain. When I called to make my reservation, the lady told me to show up at 9:00. I however decided to get up there at 8:15, and it still took me a full hour just to get gear rented and my pass paid. And that didn't even include the safety talk and all that stuff. Then when it came time to get into groups, it was like a giant cluster fuck. I ended up being paired with people that weren't nearly the same caliber of skier that I am, which became very frustrating when you're sitting at the bottom waiting for them. So one suggestion that I have for them is to try and group their clients more efficiently. In my case, I was grouped with an older group of skiers and a kid from sea level. So my group was extremely slow on the hikes. So here is my second suggestion for them: possibly put some sort of stair/railing system going up the ridge in order to speed up the people who aren't used to hiking in that type of environment. There were several occasions where we had to wait for people who had fallen off the trail.
And thirdly is just waiting for them to open up to unguided skiing. I experienced the same blatent farming of turns all day long as well and the same sort of attitude from my guide. I think that they have a lot of potential but they also have a long way to go. Hopefully they can make it through all the BLM shit and really start worrying about the experience.
Just my $.02

Wow, sounds like you had a bad time. Quel drag grande'.

I hope that these grievances were aired first to Aaron or Jen and not only here.

For what it's worth, they are working their butts off. Consider whether you could really do it better.

But, I've had that strangled feeling in a number of guided situations. But I guess I had the good fortune to be in better caliber groups the times I've been there.

I'm not in any position to argue snow stability since I don't have the specific Velocity Basin data, but the point has been made regarding safety issues, lawsuits and the gestation of a new different kind of ski area. As far as skiing the liftline, I suspect that it may be managed with an eye for appearance as well.

Then again, this bottle's been aging for a while and for my nickle, I'm not out there solely for maxing vertical. <<insert Terminator cliche' here>>.

Buster,
Jen was my guide last year and I spoke to her at length about this situation, although I have never spoken to Aaron. The caliber of my group both times was never a problem no member was holding us up it was simply the guides being very very cautious. Although I certainly wanted more vert a comprise I would have happily settled for would have been to actually ski these runs without stopping 7-10 times per run. At least I could have got into a little rhythm and enjoyed what vert I did get.

Wow, 7-10 times? I think my group stopped about 4 times on the backside (Riff/Raff) and maybe 5 or 6 times on the frontside runs.

If you can find the time and tone, write them a constuctive letter about how to do it better. Your complaints are well founded, but sometimes it's a lot harder to really do things better. Take operating systems for example.

I was thinking about a career change anyway. How much does dental school cost?

Lifites are unpaid. Their only perk is that they get exclusive use of the liftline.

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Originally posted by Pinner
Lifites are unpaid. Their only perk is that they get exclusive use of the liftline.

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" well the world needs ditch diggers too ! " ;) btw way Pinner i'd like to hear what your experience at Silverton was ?

Buster I think I will shoot them an email, in a very constructive manner of course.

Having not skiied in a guided situation, how does Silverton (or most other ops) place you into a group? Is it mostly on the "honor" system, or do they actually get to see you ski?

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Originally posted by Pinner
Lifites are unpaid. Their only perk is that they get exclusive use of the liftline.

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If this is true, and I'm assuming it is, they should just let this fact be known and be done with it. Why tell board that he couldn't ski it because of safety when that wasn't the fact.

Someday when I have $107 for a pass I'll hit Silverton, until then, I'll just enjoy the pictures and stoke.

Interesting...heading down there in a month, we'll see how it is. My only guided bc experience thus far has been Berthoud Pass Snowcats (RIP)...it was awesome. They had all the avy packs ready for us, along with breakfast...skied hard all morning starting at 8:30am or so...no turn boundaries...great lunch and repeat in the afternoon. Of course, although I'm not a NJ dentist, neither am I extremo...nor are the folks I was skiing with (everybody except me was from up from sea level).

There were five of us...we had the entire cat w/o planning to. They couldn't sustain the revenue to keep it going. I had a great time, but couldn't justify the $200 for a return trip when my season pass to WP was 15 miles down the road and there's a ton of inbounds stuff that is a lot of fun. The guides were incredible, everything was awesome, they opened the bar at the end of the day...and sometimes that's not enough to keep it running.

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Originally posted by altagirl
Well, I'll let you know what I think after next weekend!

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Please do AG, I'm really interested to find out how your experience goes.

Actually, I'd like to hear some more opinions (Pinner?) about this. Some friends and I were considering hitting Silverton when we're out there in February. I'm not the same caliber skier as many people on here, but I still have certain expectations, especially for that kind of money.