So, I SNOWBOARDED today

If you are thinking of doing this, use the softest ski boots you can find.
Most hardbooters who still use ski boots are on old flexons or heavily modified boots. the direction or amount of flex required for hardboot snowboarding is quite a bit different than what you find in your normal ski boots. Ski boots will work for a while, but if you really want to progress on hard boots, you really need snowboard specific boots. the bad part of that is there are only 3 manufacturers left that sell in the US, and one of them (UPZ) has a major design flaw.

Ski boots that work ok on boards: Raichle Flexon, old Line Transfer, and Dalbello Krypton Rampage...

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Originally Posted by Sinecure

I wish I still had my Sorel Snow Bears with the Caber boot liner shoved in them. Got them in France winter of 86-87 when I learned to snowboard and rode them for a few seasons. I even did Tuckerman Ravine in them!

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This sounds strangely familiar. I've been there and done that too but I am much happier with todays stiffer boots. Unfortunately for me I cant get a good fit with the BOA or any of the other systems so far. DaveTV mentioned that his boots have the velcro powerstrap which is something I wish more boots came with. I've been wanting to add those to my boots for a while now.

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Originally Posted by KnuckleDragger

Unfortunately for me I cant get a good fit with the BOA or any of the other systems so far.

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As much as I like to bash on Burton, I have 40 days on a pair of Ions with the speedlace and I'm pretty happy. I love the dual zone. I like my ankles locked in but like my upper boot loose.

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Originally Posted by Cyber Cop

As much as I like to bash on Burton, I have 40 days on a pair of Ions with the speedlace and I'm pretty happy. I love the dual zone. I like my ankles locked in but like my upper boot loose.

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I agree. I have Ride boots with dual zone laces and they give me the best fit I have been able to find, but I prefer to leave the boot a little looser over the foot for comfort and then crank the cuff as tight as I can get it.

Why is it that euros, right coasters, and racers seem to be caught up on this whole hard boot thing. I've yet to see one solid big mountain rider in hard boots for good reason. You can't move your ankes and have no chance at getting a feel for the mountain.

Sure, if you want to arc groomers, try a hard boot set up, but for anything else, soft boots will give you way more range. If you want a stiffer feel try bindings like Flows or those Rides with the wide top strap. In anything other than a race course, a good rider will be faster with soft boots.

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Originally Posted by tenB

In anything other than a race course, a good rider will be faster with soft boots.

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You need to come ride with me. If you can keep up, I'll change my tune. Hell, many of my skier friends can't even keep up. Don't bash until you've tried it a few times. I rode soft boots for 3 years before switching, and have re-tried periodically to see if I'm missing anything. This year I started skiing a bit again (fat skis are awesome), but there's still hardly a line I can't rip on a hard boot setup. Yes, I can go faster on skis, but I haven't met many people who are faster on a snowboard, and those that are faster are all World Cup caliber folks who also ride hard boots. Yes, I know there are loads of soft boot folks I've never met who are faster than me, but hey, I'm 42 so I'd hope they are faster.

We got a pretty serious snowboard debate going on here!

Who cares, just ski!

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Originally Posted by Sinecure

You need to come ride with me. If you can keep up, I'll change my tune. Hell, many of my skier friends can't even keep up. Don't bash until you've tried it a few times. I rode soft boots for 3 years before switching, and have re-tried periodically to see if I'm missing anything. This year I started skiing a bit again (fat skis are awesome), but there's still hardly a line I can't rip on a hard boot setup. Yes, I can go faster on skis, but I haven't met many people who are faster on a snowboard, and those that are faster are all World Cup caliber folks who also ride hard boots. Yes, I know there are loads of soft boot folks I've never met who are faster than me, but hey, I'm 42 so I'd hope they are faster.

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Different strokes for different blokes. What interests me is floatin big lines, surfing like Laird on Reece. I love watching, chasing and emulating the little bastards that get so creative with the line. Hang 10 on a big cornice and spin off a pillow. This ain't no one demention bitches.:tdo13: :tdo13: :tdo13: :tdo13: :tdo13: Dog and Poney boney all a little stoney, homeeeeeee.

honestly and especially with the introduction of the capstrap, the only reason anyone should ever be in hardboots is if they are racing (maybe, our US boy beat 4 hardbooters in Olympic boarder cross with a normal softboot and stance setup and got Gold) or if they are skiing

you do not get more control with hardboots whatsoever especially with all the onnovations in snowboard bindings today

also, tom burt is not a big mountain rider, he is an east coast parkie who just so happened to start a big company and get to ride "big" mountains

look at the real sick riders of the big mountain, Jeremy Jones (not jibber) Tereje Haakosen(sp) ect... all in soft boots riding shit that if it were a degree steeper it wouldnt hold snow... also i know for a fact Marco Siffredi (sp) wore soft boots as well, and he is the sickest big mountain rider to ever live.


and the reason only 3 companys make hardboots? its the same reason only 3 (a guess) companys still make step in bindings without high backs...

snowbaording is progressing at a phenomanal rate and hardboots are a thing of the past now.

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Originally Posted by Humble

honestly and especially with the introduction of the capstrap....:fm:

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Dude the capstrat is the biggest gimick since wheat bread.:rolleyes2

It may be a bit more comfy but it don't change shit. And that's word from the streets sucka man.:cool:

Good fitting boots are great, but I think bindings are even more important. I was a weirdo though and took my board and boots to the shop and tried on probably 10 different bindings before I found ones I liked. I also don't like cap straps but am probably in the minority here. My current bindings have convertible straps so I can run them as caps or normal. I loved capstraps for 2 years, but when I could go back to back easily I found more control with my toe strap in the normal position. :)

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Originally Posted by ctarmchair

Sinecure,

Out of curiosity, what's your setup? I ask because a lot of the Bomber guys make me want to shoot myself when I read about how everyone should be on a 185 GS stick with stiff Bomber bumpers in order to slay the gnar of the blue runs at Stratton -- that thing about hardbooters being their own worst PR -- and am always curious what someone who ride all-mountain on plates is doing.

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I have 5 boards in my quiver. Actually 4 since I broke my powder board and will probably replace it with a pair of fat skis - well, I'll probably get a swallowtail board too, just for fun in the right pow conditions. 163 Volkl Renntiger SL that is only for racing SL. 171 Donek Freecarve I - my favorite board but it needs to be replaced soon, I've ridden it a lot. 180 Coiler RaceCarve - Fun board for speed, ripping huge lines and GS courses. And a 210 Donek SG board for terrorizing the groomers on non-crowded days.

I used to run a few different sets of bindings. Had Burton Race Plates but got rid of them after I popped out of them doing jump turns on a very steep, very tight chute (Keyhole at Alpine Meadows) :eek: . They weren't secure enough for me to feel comfortable. F2 Titanflex, but you can't get replacement screws or parts for them in this country so they are just on my pow board for the occasional day. Now I mostly run Bomber Trenchdigger 2's on my alpine decks. I use the softest elastomer ring and managed to get one set of Bomber's new extra soft cushion system before they ran out.

I'm not sure what I'd run if I still lived back east. Probably the same thing. We have pretty soft snow here compared to there. Also, there are a couple of ridiculously aggro folks in VT who seem to be of the opinion that "I'm the best, my gear is the best, and anyone who says different is an idiot." I don't agree. I love the bombers because they are, well, bomber. Plus I love to convenience of step-in alpine bindings.

I know lots of people who swear by soft boots/bindings, and some of them rip huge lines. Alpine riding suffers a real chicken and egg situation. Very few people try it because the equipment is hard to come by (at least its not available in many local shops - its easy to get on the web). It doesn't get stocked in shops because so few people do it. Sort of a vicious cycle. There are some small pockets of riders in Tahoe, Utah and VT.

The best resources I know of on the US web for more info are:
www.alpinecarving.com
www.bomberonline.com
www.tahoecarvers.com

Bomber is the only one of those that's also a commercial enterprise.

If anyone is in Tahoe and wants to come out and have fun carving (soft or hard), let me know. I also have a somewhat stocked stash of demo gear. We call it the unofficial TahoeCarvers demo fleet. I even have some old Bomber bindings that work with ski boots or AT boots and a handful of boards not listed above.

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Originally Posted by ctarmchair

You were sounding core, I could even picture the dreads and the Jamaican flag wristbands, and then you said this. You didn't even make it to the knuckle.

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oh i know this is almost entirley false, but i am a young adult still dealing with the whole i hate capitalism/corprate america thing, and in snowboarding Burton is big tabacco and nike and mcdonalds and walmart all rolled into one

tom was key to the entire progression of the sport and still will be at least 10 more years form now... im just had to hate burton so i wouldnt be a lame trendy (though the vapors are extremley sick)

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Originally Posted by Cyber Cop

Dude the capstrat is the biggest gimick since wheat bread.:rolleyes2

It may be a bit more comfy but it don't change shit. And that's word from the streets sucka man.:cool:

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LOL... im pretty sure your being sarcastic and flame baiting ;)

but from my opinion, i will say my progression almost stopped until i rode with a capstrap, i was instantly able to ride moguls with speed (hardest technical aspect of snowboarding for me) and it improved my "surfing" in the goodness

i also reccomend T9 over burton because of the flexibility of the rubber system they use... can get a great grip on your toes

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Originally Posted by Sinecure

I'm not sure what I'd run if I still lived back east. Probably the same thing. We have pretty soft snow here compared to there. Also, there are a couple of ridiculously aggro folks in VT who seem to be of the opinion that "I'm the best, my gear is the best, and anyone who says different is an idiot." I don't agree. I love the bombers because they are, well, bomber. Plus I love to convenience of step-in alpine bindings.
.

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Having learned in Colorado and Tahoe, then moved to the Ice Coast, I think it's easier than it always sounds to ride the ice if you have decent skills, especially for a racer (you seem to be on the track I was on 15 years ago)
Vermont caarvers are a great bunch of guys...there's just one or two who like to make alot of noise about how their way of riding is the only way to go...I just don't get it. Snowboarding and skiing have always been (at least for me) a way of saying "I don't give a fuck what you think...my style is mine"
-that didn't go over too well with a certain race coach in tahoe, btw

You happy with your RC 180? I just ordered a 175 wide (20cm) for next year...next thing you know I'll be getting shit for riding such a "wide" board

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Originally Posted by Humble

also, tom burt is not a big mountain rider, he is an east coast parkie who just so happened to start a big company and get to ride "big" mountains

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umm..whatever...troll

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Originally Posted by tex1230

umm..whatever...troll

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read my next post please...

I think you have Tom Burt and Jake Burton Carpenter confused...

Tom Burt:
http://www.snowquest.com/crew/images/tombheadshot.jpg
Big Mountain Guide, Snowboard Mountaineer, Hardbooter

Jake Burton Carpenter:
http://mirror06.burton.com/images/co..._meetjake6.jpg
Snowboard Entrepeneur/Pioneer...now head of a lifestyle company that has little to do with real snowboarding

Humble, if you are looking for even more response from your soft setup, look into Catek FRs:

http://www.catek.com/98_freeride/05_...e_sidebar2.jpg

stiffest, most responsive soft boot bindings around.

ctarmchair,

I agree with you 100% that hard-boot riders are their own worst PR... even the companies. I think this comes from the high level of engineering that goes into the products... boards and bindings for hard-booting have much smaller ranges of tolerances than soft-boot set-ups. The personality types that you find producing this stuff in the US are not exactly marketing friendly.

I ride in hard-boots, and I ride almost exclusively in the bckcountry. Every once in a while I go to a resort and practice technique, but 90% of the time, I'm in the BC.

I used to ride in soft-boots, but I made the switch when I started taking my board above 14'k. I can't think of a line in the lower 48 that can't be done on soft-boots, but Denali, the Himalaya, etc... these are not places for oversized tennis shoes and plastic straps. I tried all sorts of homemade cobble-jobs to avoid switching to hard-boots, but when I did, here's what I found:

1. With the correct angles, cant, lift, etc... my knees suffer much less, and my legs have much more endurance on the way down. (definitely an issue when you are tired and hypoxic, in a dangerous place)

2. With just a little bit of coaching, I re-discovered the fun of snowboarding... I have zero desire to ride in soft-boots now. Hard-boots are just too much fun. I prefer them in all conditions; corn, hardpack, mush, pow, big lines, trees, etc....

There are definitely people out there who will always enjoy soft-boots more, but I am not one of them. I prefer to look down the fall-line and orient my body and balance in the same direction. I never got into the pipe-and-park, jib, switch scene... left that stuff behind when I gave up BMX.

3. They obviously climb better... I had tried mountaineering boots in strap bindings, a reasonable solution with the right boots. What I found, though, is that AT boots are easier on the calves, if you need to front-point on hard snow for a loooooooonnnng time. The only time I use any more specialized climbing boot is for pure ice climbing... and, I don't do it often.



I ride in Garmont, Mega Rides, though I may be switching to some Scarpas next year... The Mega Rides are great because they have a ton of power, but they are very adjustable... I can loosen them up in just the right places for softer snow conditions. They also have a decent amount of forward lean.

My bindings are the Bomber TD2s, slightly modified. They went on a weight-loss program, post-production. Bomber milled out a lot of the excess alumminum and added titanium wherever possible. They are working to make some 2-piece bindings for me, just the heel and toe blocks with my cant and lift built in. This will cut the weight by 75%.

I have 2 boards that I use right now:
1. A Donek, Incline 168... I can ride this board anywhere, and it is my "go-to." The waist is 24.1cm, and it has a 10-meter sidecut radius. It works perfectly for my boot size and the angles that I run (45/45)... you need to have the toes and heels of your boots as close to the edge as possible without booting out.

The Incline has a pretty aggressive flex pattern, so it's definitely geared towards a hard-boot rider.

2. A Donek, Incline 165... with no tail... gives it the effective edge of a 168. The only difference between this board and my 168 is that the thickness tapering was done on a CNC machine instead of a planer... it affected the flex pattern. It's a little too stiff in the front for powder, but it absolutley kills it on corn.



I get free stuff from Donek and Bomber, and part of what i trade is some marketing expertise... I haven't been doing it for long, but I expect that they will start changing their strategies gradually, by next year. My opinion is that the hard-boot system is usable by at least 75% of the backcountry snowboarders out there.... they just need to be shown that it is not just for carving blue-run groomers.

My access set-up; approach skis with permanent skins, Dynafit toe pieces, and Voile heel risers - Combined with the reliability of plate bindings = a much more reliable and efficient system than splitboards.

Zach

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Originally Posted by ctarmchair

Thanks for taking the time to share the specifics of what you're riding. Also thanks for helping to push the sport forward, I know it only happens when people work really hard to make it happen.

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cheers Zach. Not much into mountaineering myself, but it's nice to read your perspective and experience. If I was pushing it to that level I'm sure I'd switch to hard boots, but for everyday blow-hard type shit I'm stickin with my softies. In general terms you don't have to be 45/45 to point it down the fall line, but if death is involved it might be a good idea. Pinche.:wink:

Hey, thanks!

This year, I'm just training... I was planning on Shishapangma, but couldn't get it together with a team, etc... I think I've finally learned that having good/compattible climbing partners is more important than getting things done when just I am ready. (It's also easy to take a year off, since I'm gonna' be a father next month.)

My best climbing partner was busy last year, starting up a business with his wife. He also has been a little behind on fitness. Now, we're training up, together, and we're heading back to Denali next June to take another stab at the Messner. We'll be looking at the Himalaya after that... A friend of mine is looking at the Messner variation on the North Face of Everest that Fall, so if everything works out, we may go on that trip... a LOT has to work out, though.

I know that I am ready to climb above 7000 meters, but it's equally imprtant that I have a climbing partner whom I can trust with my life that is ready to go that high, too.

(...it's all a little "deep"... but, with my boy in the way, and the coombs thing, I've been thinkning wwwwwaaaaaaayyy too much)

Zach

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Originally Posted by tex1230

I think you have Tom Burt and Jake Burton Carpenter confused...

Tom Burt:
http://www.snowquest.com/crew/images/tombheadshot.jpg
Big Mountain Guide, Snowboard Mountaineer, Hardbooter

Jake Burton Carpenter:
http://mirror06.burton.com/images/co..._meetjake6.jpg
Snowboard Entrepeneur/Pioneer...now head of a lifestyle company that has little to do with real snowboarding

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wow, i feel like stupid...

confusing Jake and Tom is stupid in so many stupid ways =(


i guess i still have early childhood issues with the name Burt(on) and my subconcious was looking for an exscuse to bag on big snowboard...


once again i apologize for the stupidity, im also planning on putting the joint out soon, maybe this will help.

and no i dont hate prior unity ect... they aint mcdonalds or walmart of the industry, there good comapnies run by good people with a great product... burton is horrible on so many levels and i dont go to therapy for a week so i cant discuss


AGAIN IM AN IDIOT FOR EVER CONFUSING TOM THE BADASS AND JAKE THE SNAKE

Zach, you get all the cool goodies. I'm jealous. Folding skis, TD2s w/out the center disk and custom cant/lift...f'in A.

Good post. I agree that a forward oriented stance definitely inspires more confidence, allows for better visibility on steep pitches and the stiffer boots are so key when edge hold is critical. I remember trying to hold an edge on Tuckerman Ravine in softies and it was a bit sketchy, even in soft snow.

Want to ride together inbounds tomorrow? I have a pass to S-bowl and it looks like my friend can't make it. Either that or A-Meadows. Let me know.

Randy

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Originally Posted by tex1230

Humble, if you are looking for even more response from your soft setup, look into Catek FRs:

http://www.catek.com/98_freeride/05_...e_sidebar2.jpg

stiffest, most responsive soft boot bindings around.

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i would look into these but im already getting a splitboard for next season and these look like they have a fair amount of lift... and im trying to be a minimalist right now with lift =(

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Originally Posted by Sinecure

Good post. I agree that a forward oriented stance definitely inspires more confidence, allows for better visibility on steep pitches and the stiffer boots are so key when edge hold is critical. I remember trying to hold an edge on Tuckerman Ravine in softies and it was a bit sketchy, even in soft snow.

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As far as holding an edge I've been hearing lots of good reviews from the few people pimping the lib-tech magnatraction. Wierdest idea to pop up in awhile, but supposedly it works. Even seen it on a pair of lib-tech skiis...what's the world comming to?

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Originally Posted by Below Zero

Who cares, just ski!

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Put a cork in it spanky! :p


I learned on the ice coast on hardboots and a really long Burton something or other many moons ago. Then I tried softboots (coming from a ice coast ski racing background) and HATED them, slop is all I felt. I would crank binding so hard my feet went numb on the way up.

Now I ride Salomon soft boots and I love em, one pair 2, need pair 3 soon.
I ride with feeling in my toes (and my soul bitches!) and love it.


I would not mind trying hard boots again out here, but I just don't see the need in Utah snow really.