Right, beause we accept everything anyone wants to post without any sense of place or time.Quote:
Originally Posted by bagtagley
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Right, beause we accept everything anyone wants to post without any sense of place or time.Quote:
Originally Posted by bagtagley
Quote:
Originally Posted by truth
pot/kettle/black again Mr. 5136
Do the Iraqi's have any say in this at all? When I was over there the Iraqi's were overwhelmingly supportive of us having been over there. And as far as the torture thing goes there mindset is totally different then ours.
A story I have read kind of illustrates this. A Marine sniper comes up to the hotel housing foreign journalists. There happens to be some of those antiwar protesters there and one of them comes up to him and starts ranting and raving about him being a baby killer. Even shows him a calender of dead babies killed by war. Some Iraqi's come up to him and as there offer of thanks for taking out Saddam they offer to kill the protester for him. He politely tells him that we don't do those kind of things and ends up having to protect the protester.
Natty there is nothing Bush could have done to have prevented what is happening right now in Iraq except to not have gone at all. What is happening now was planned before we even invaded. A lot of these weapon caches were preplanted, criminals were let out of jail, and Saddam knew we were coming and planned to mainly fight us by guerilla tactics. I don't think he planned on getting caught. I read one book that seemed to think that Saddam was being held captive when went to go get him. His politcal capital running out.
What do you guys think we should do with these prisoners? Send them to a nice federal prison back here in the states? What do you condsider torture? Do you consider depriving them of sleep torture?
Rusty I don't agree with you at all. All you lawyers sitting behind a desk talking about the niceties of war are totally out of reality about what is actually happening in the war. From my experience and what I have read actual physical torture is actualy counter productive and from the tiny little bit I have been told about actual interogation techniques they don't teach physical torture.
What actually is happening out there and what is actually reported in the media are 2 different worlds. Remember that the media sole and only job is to make money not report what is actually happening because it might not be exciting enough to make major headlines.
One more thing, even though I totally disagree with Natty's political views if you don't want to read what he has to say then why the hell would you click on this thread when it is extremely apparent what this thread is about?
AKP, first off, welcome home, and thank you for your service. Glad you are back safe and sound and ready to enjoy some skiing.Quote:
Originally Posted by AKPogue
I have to disagree with you on your last paragraph above. Have you seen the pics from Abu Grabe (sp)? Have you read the reports of the CIA using third world countries to secretly take prisoners to for torture and interogation? I by no means think that this is wide spread bu US troops. I think though that there is a pretty active black ops brigade that is essentially metting out torture and its own trial and jury in third world torture chambers. And while I don't exactly weep for many of these Al Queda people (esp. if proved they are directly linked to causing innocent deaths), i am upset that we have sunk so low. All this does is to reenforce the belief by the already radicalized elemnts of the Muslim populace, and they use it as PR against us, and as a powerful recruitment tool for new terrorists. Shit is happening out there, and its not pretty
Is that the only point you can make natty?Quote:
Originally Posted by natty dread
Is that how you fight for new sewers in the city council?
C'mon, I expected more from you. You posted it and then run screaming when someone disagrees, resorting to retorting with silly witicisms rather than engaging in the discourse that your topic would seem to be attempting to create. Maybe you just copy and paste too much and should spend a wee bit more time forming your own opinions and formulating your own ideas rather than spewing forth copious volumes of someone else's dictation.
When disagreeing is outlawed we're all in trouble.
AKP, what cheney wants to authorize is far more than sleep deprivation. Of course I don't think enemy combatants need to be coddled--just not tortured. What you have heard about interogation techniques not including physical torture (which has been documented repeatedly to be false) would change if the shrub cabal had their way. Just because the media is reporting it and you happen to think media spreads falsehoods does not make the bush pro torture stance untrue.Quote:
Originally Posted by AKPogue
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKPogue
Thank you!!
I never said anything about disagreeing, in fact I supported it. My post was directed at the attacks towards natty even posting the article.Quote:
Originally Posted by truth
With the exception of pictures of your own turds in the toilet, I'm okay with people posting about anything, particularly political content.
Dos Pesos.
Bottom Line:
Torture is not a productive interrogation technique. It does not lead to replicateable long term intelligence gains. It exacts a huge toll on those called upon to carry out the torture. It negatively impacts other aspects of the intel gathering function and reinforces an enemies will to fight to the death instead of surrendering. Being for torture is an emotional response based on exacting revenge, instead of producing useful information. The military really doesn't want anything to do with it.
But all that pales in comparison to one basic thing: We are AMERICANS, we are better than that and if WE can't do better then I don't know what we even think we're fighting for. In order to hold the high ground, you must first occupy the high ground.
That's what people don't get here. The rest of the world doesn't really give a fuck about human rights! Most of them laugh at us because we make such a big deal about it. If we cared so much about human rights then why didn't Mr. Feelgood(aka President Clinton) go into Rwanda when 800,000 people were massacred there. If the rest of the world cared about stuff like human rights maybe they might have helped too. But no the world sat around in the UN debating about what to do rather than doing a damn thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by freshies
[QUOTE=truth]Is that the only point you can make natty? [/QUOTE=truth]
Nope, I think I've made a few points other than that. I was just responding to the hypocrisy in your statement. You have posted plenty of pointless, out of context shit yourself. So have I. shrug
Where is "here"..? You think you are the only one here who has been out of the country ..? The fact is, the USA has a double standard on "human rights". We have no business torturing anyone. EVER. UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE. PERIOD.Quote:
That's what people don't get here. The rest of the world doesn't really give a fuck about human rights!
Yeah. It's bad news if you're a soldier. Geneva Convention is a big deal and it's meant to protect our soldiers too. If we don't follow the rules, why on earth would anyone else?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinner
yeah, I'm glad we get all of the obscure rantings from the NYT Editorial page. TimesSelect is the best thing that's happened to this board.Quote:
Originally Posted by backpack
The reason the administration has opposed this legislation is that all it does is tell the MP's to follow the Army Field Manual. It seems silly to legislate rules that are already in place. But whatever blows their hair back. I'm surprised McCain could peel himself away from the all important baseball steroid investigations to come up with this bill.
I wouldn't really fear this addendum to the defense spending bill won't get passed. W hasn't picked up the veto pen in almost five years as president. he won't start on this bill.
As of right now it is looking like the CIA will get exempted.
As far as the torture goes, the effectiveness of it from an inteligence gathering standpoint is becoming more and more doubtful. Mark Bowden had a series of essays in the New Yorker a couple of years ago that were pretty damning regarding the effectiveness of torture. I think this is by and large true. However, the successes that have been realized by either the CIA, et. al are most likely not sent to the AP. "Prisoner Hobbled, Saddam Found in Spider Hole as Result."
That being said, if one act of torture saves even one Coalition life. "Red is positive, black is negative."
It doesn't matter what the rest of the world thinks about it: Americans do (should) care strongly about it. I hold my country to a much higher standard than other countries, don't you? :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by AKPogue
As for the situation in Rwanda, that's a straw man, nobody here has yet defended his action/inaction, nor should they. Past failure is no exuse for current failure.
[QUOTE=natty dread]Your pointless post is the point. Why don't you dorks just go skiing or something?Quote:
Originally Posted by truth
Fuckyou jong asshole. How's that? Why don't you go skiing?Quote:
Originally Posted by OG
AKP,
Not sure what point of mine you disagreed with. Military units have continued to follow military policy for the most part, but there have been notable exceptions that hampered our public image and fight. My statements to Truth and Jumper (a dude I really like) are simply that adherence to prohibitions against torture are paramount. Also, if you think I sat behind a desk and that is all, you are sorely mistaken and make a terribly misplaced assumption. Just because I know the law doesn't mean I don't know how to pull a trigger and spent time exposed in CENTCOM and may do so again shortly. You can contact me offline if you want.
The OGC info I talked about related in several ways to OIF and OEF-A concerning the applicability of the Conventions. Once determined applicable, the Conventions apply since they, as ratified treaties, have the effect of federal law. OGC was trying to find every conceivable way to say the conventions did not apply AT ALL. I'll save the detailed provisions for treatment as well as the Common Articles 2 and 3 analysis for another day (when beer and informal bantering is present). These include talks about the "Bybee Memo", the "torture memo", and several other official and unofficial legal advice presented in DoD and OSD. I, for one, think our military leadership has done a laudable job of not swaying from our adherence.
As a side note, I had the pleasure of visiting with a POW who spent 5 years in that status in Vietnam and is now an attorney in the DC area. It is his express opinion that torture in counterproductive and only strenghtens the resolve of the opposition. I could not agree more with this distinguished gentleman.
I sure hope they do soon. It seems a worthwhile question to ask which Iraqi's you're referring to, the ones we humiliated in Abu Ghraib or the rest of the country.Quote:
Originally Posted by AKPogue
You say below that you don't trust the media, so where is this story coming from and why is it that you trust it more than anything else?Quote:
Originally Posted by AKPogue
So let's learn the lesson and not fuck around with unjust, credibility-ruining wars. I don't see this war producing anything positive. You mention political capital in this post, well this war, and this pro-torture policy has burned up a lot of our political capital around the civilized world.Quote:
Originally Posted by AKPogue
Why is it then that the Shrub declared victory...shouldn't we have known what was about to go down?Quote:
Originally Posted by AKPogue
There are civilized agreed-upon standards for holding POW's. We should follow those.Quote:
Originally Posted by AKPogue
No need for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by AKPogue
The naked pyramid, the Quoran in the toilet, hanging people up by their wrists with handcuffs...that sort of thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by AKPogue
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by AKPogue
Hardly me. Not nice. I have friends who've filled me in on what's going on over there. I'm not a lawyer (fuck no I'm not) and I don't have any illusions about reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by AKPogue
That's what we're saying bro! That's why it's retarded that the Shrub administration wanted to allow it, pushed for it, had lawyers working on how they could get away with it, against the better judgement of the people who understand interrogation.Quote:
Originally Posted by AKPogue
I don't see how that applies to PBS/NPR, they report what's going on in an unbiased way and are not subject to corporate/government influence. In your opinion does this apply to them?Quote:
Originally Posted by AKPogue
The interesting thing is that they're not following the rules. Go watch the Frontline Documentary through their website, they have an interview with both a former and present Army interrogater detailing what they do to prisoners. And that's just the army... the CIA is a whole other ball game.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_gyptian
So here's the question: How many innocent people is it okay to torture in order to extract information saving one Coalition life.
5?
10?
1,000?
If you knew that torturing your mother would save a Coalition life would that be ok? Let's say she was picked up in a random sweep of people who might have knowledge about an upcoming terrorist attack. Wrong place, wrong time - but we have reason to believe that someone in that groups knows something. So we go to work on all of them.
And heck, let's keep it within the boundaries of what the administration has said is not torture. That is, no impending sense death and no sense of pain equal to that of organ failure.
So to begin we take mom into a room hooded and bound. Then we release a dog on her. The dog is muzzled, but she does not know that. Maybe, under controlled situations we let the dog gnaw on her a bit. You know, nothing too bad, just mom gets a few superficial dog bites.
Then we break every bone in her left hand.
Then we stick her in a cold shower with fans running on her, suspended by her wrists for.... oh heck.... 4 hours? (You're right... better make it 5)
Then we take dear old mom into another room and let some guys work her over a bit. Nothing to bad, just some kicks to the head, a few punches, a knee thrown here and there. Probably mom walks out with a few less teeth, a broken rib or two, and a dislocated shoulder.
But hey! She hasn't experienced any imminent fear of death or the pain of organ failure, so buck up kiddos... it's not torture!
Let's put her through another 4 hours in the shower, maybe some sensory deprivation, another beating or two... and then some sleep deprivation.
Then we move onto the water boarding & sodomy.
Am I the only one who thinks we're better than this?
"I think our policies required abuse. There were freaking horrible things people were doing. I saw [detainees] who had feet smashed with hammers. One detainee told me he had been forced by Marines to sit on an exhaust pipe, and he had a softball-sized blister to prove it. The stuff I did was mainly torture lite: sleep deprivation, isolation, stress positions, hypothermia. We used dogs." - army specialist, Anthony Lagouranis, who recently left the military, and served in Iraq.
I'm pretty sure it's allready bad news. I just don't believe that others are following the rules AG, especially those that we are fighting in this war on terror.Quote:
Originally Posted by altagirl
Macchiavelli was wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_gyptian
AKPogue: The "Western World" - i.e. Europe, Canada, Japan - which we purport to lead, THEY care. We rank dead last in G7 nations as regards Human Rights. Some leadership. :rolleyes:
It's easier to hate an enemy and play their dirty pool than it is to respect them and treat them at a higher level. If we want the moral compass to point our way, as we claim, then that is EXACTLY what we must do, regardless of cost.
You may want to take a look at this: http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm and pay close attention to #2.
Agreed, and I'm not trying to attack you. It's just that pasting political articles seems to just be a way to stir the shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by natty dread