Heating system for new house construction in Colorado

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Originally Posted by EWG

I'm with ya. Like I said, I'd love it, and I'd trade my gas top for induction tomorrow. Some folks aren't feeling it though - I have a family member, as an example, who just got one in his rental while he waits for his house to be rebuilt (garage fire - so fun) and is not a fan it. Says it's less controllable, which I can't really understand. Maybe he's just doing it wrong. But I've heard it as feedback in other situations like multi-family rentals. Maybe it's just unfamiliar to people?

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I had a pretty high end induction top that we used for about 4 years. Not sure when it was new. Tech has obviously improved since then. It made better financial sense to have them pipe out to our propane tank and fit in a gas top. The gas unit is 1000 times more fun to cook on, and infinitely more controllable. It is a pain to clean, that is about the only downside.
Again, mine was an older unit, but in talking to several high end appliance places, and the high end section at Best Buy, they all pretty much confirmed that to get the type of control I have with gas, you are spending a ton more $$ for induction. That was all about 2 years ago, so again, tech and pricing may have changed.

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Originally Posted by EWG

I'm with ya. Like I said, I'd love it, and I'd trade my gas top for induction tomorrow. Some folks aren't feeling it though - I have a family member, as an example, who just got one in his rental while he waits for his house to be rebuilt (garage fire - so fun) and is not a fan it. Says it's less controllable, which I can't really understand. Maybe he's just doing it wrong. But I've heard it as feedback in other situations like multi-family rentals. Maybe it's just unfamiliar to people?

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The cooking surface does heat up indirectly via contact with the hot pan, so when you turn the heat down they are a little slower to respond than gas. Obviously they are much more responsive in the other direction. I find that tradeoff well worth it for the rapid heat up (mine will boil a gallon of water in 6 minutes, yes, I've timed it), lack of waste heat, safety of not having open flames, no NOx emissions, and dead easy cleanup. Gas does have the advantage of being able to cook when the power is out, so that is something to consider if you live somewhere where the power goes out frequently.

Cheap models with smaller magnets can have issues. I would say an MSRP around $3k is probably the minimum buy-in. I've had this LG for a little over a year now and it's outstanding. Love the oven, too. Heats up fast and even cranked to 500+ it puts out very little heat into the kitchen. While we can debate the merits of gas vs induction ranges, on the oven side gas has no advantages over electric.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/LG-30-in...36FE/329104370

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Originally Posted by ::: :::

Agree with most of your post except this ^^^

Induction is worlds different from electric resistance cooking (glass or coil)
Safer by far & way more tunable for cooking temps. And ultimately cheaper on energy via less wasted heat.

I don’t know who “many folks” are, but they are very poorly informed or making shit up

The requirement of using ferromagnetic pots & pans is a minor cost in the cooking life, and it doesn’t mean anyone has to purchase expensive cooking pots/pans.

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Seriously, induction stovetops are like some sort of magical sorcery. Boil water in 60 seconds, go from boil to simmer in a half second.

Thanks again all. A few things:

1) I don't NEED A/C with a well-insulated building with our cool nights when I can open windows, but yeah I'd use it sometimes if I had it- especially if there's wildlfire smoke (I've lived here 33 years so I know what it's like). I just don't want that to drive the decision.

2) The house will be first floor on slab (partial below-grade- it's a mild hillside), with second floor as the main floor a few feet above street level. I am tending toward in-floor heat for the slab. What would be the best for that- heat pump or natural gas? One comment above says heat pump not great for that but I'm reading other things that says it is good because water doesn't need to be that hot.

3) With that in mind I'm wondering about doing in-floor in the slab, and then just mini-splits for the main, second floor (so would have A/C there too), which will have a gas heatstove regardless for on-demand radiant comfort/ambiance. But if I did that would still need to decide on heat pump or gas for the in-floor heating.

^^^^ sounds like a good plan.

Heated slab is gravy.
As said above any heat pump isn’t the best for second homes, but if you have WiFi thermostats you can ramp it up before you get there.

My main home has gas boiler and baseboard registers. Also has splits for ac and shoulder. The gas is being used now.
My other house only has splits. Long story complicated renovation. Working on reconnecting the gas boiler to the first floor baseboards.
Heat rises. So I’ll only run the upstairs spilt if the temps drop.

The best thing about a split system is closing doors. On a two floor it’s usually two thermostats. With a split you can heat room by room.

My first system is Fujitsu. Mitsubishi is also good I hear. But the one I put in last year is cooper hunter. Comes with WiFi built in. My hvac guy switched over to them and I agree.

FWIW, I really don't think I would consider mini splits for new construction.

They are fantastic for what they are and have incredible retrofit capabilities...but it is a whole lot of separate systems, more failure points, more noise in the active rooms, more noticable blowing air, etc.

A well-thought-out ducting plan is simply going to be more pleasant (but not as pleasant as in-floor). You want someone who will really think about where the vents are blowing (like...not directly at where the bed will be), where the returns are pulling from, etc. With a good system you should barely hear anything when the system is running. Everything is confined to the a utility room and an outside compressor unit.
You can go with multiple zones and a multi-stage air handler to get more control. Smart thermostats are very smart these days and can run remote temp sensors in key rooms.
If you are well sealed, you're going to need to inject fresh air somehow, so the ducting serves a purpose even when the heat/cool isn't running. Also look into whether you will need/want make up air for a kitchen exhaust.

That's a nightmare to do in a renovation, but should be easy to do at the planning stage when you can make sure you leave space for the ductwork and equipment.

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Originally Posted by Core Shot

^^^^ sounds like a good plan.

Heated slab is gravy.
As said above any heat pump isn’t the best for second homes, but if you have WiFi thermostats you can ramp it up before you get there.

My main home has gas boiler and baseboard registers. Also has splits for ac and shoulder. The gas is being used now.
My other house only has splits. Long story complicated renovation. Working on reconnecting the gas boiler to the first floor baseboards.
Heat rises. So I’ll only run the upstairs spilt if the temps drop.

The best thing about a split system is closing doors. On a two floor it’s usually two thermostats. With a split you can heat room by room.

My first system is Fujitsu. Mitsubishi is also good I hear. But the one I put in last year is cooper hunter. Comes with WiFi built in. My hvac guy switched over to them and I agree.

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Hot air rises, heat goes in all directions.

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Originally Posted by Tele 'til You're Smelly

Thanks again all. A few things:

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Are you building in-town or in the county? Just curious about where your lot is.. no need to be specific.. though despite my nosy prying, we'll probably see your construction ;).

Feel free to keep it private, mostly want to give props; at some point, I'd like to sell one of our older properties and start fresh w/ a new one built to our spec.

Fwiw, I like in-floor radiant heat and if you can power that via a heat pump all the better. Hope it works out.

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Originally Posted by warthog

If it is a 2nd home, install a Z wave Thermostat (s) and turn it on a few hours before you arrive.

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I've thought about doing a wifi thermostat because we turn the heat down to 50 when we aren't there. But we just turn it up when we arrive and then run the gas stove in the living room for the instant heat. But yeah, the in floor heat is awesome, so even, quiet and my feet are never cold. 6 separate zones for the micro adjustments is pretty cool too.

I have had induction (Thermador) since 2009 in the old house and in 2020 upgraded the kitchen in the next house and added the Thermador w the "french top" w no distinct burners. It's pretty trick where the setting follows the pan as it's slid across the cooktop and each burner has it's own timer that automatically shuts the burner off. That has saved my ass many times.

It's faster and more responsive than gas both heating and cooling (hate to disagree w DTM!.) It puts off WAY less heat so you can get by w smaller hood w less powerful fan. It's so much more tolerable in the kitchen during summer. The surface remains pretty cool, cool enough to wipe up a spill w a single paper towel.

As far as adjusting the heat output the scale on mine starts at 1 and goes to 9 with increments every .5. How could one need more adjustability than that? It's stupid easy compared to looking at a flame and one soon dials in the numbers, for instance chicken cutlets is 6.5, rice is 2.5, etc. It's also got after burner settings if you're really impatient.

As the others have said-I wouldn't go without the AC.

You might not want it but it may be a deal breaker to the next buyer and you always may regret not doing it later.

We've had electric resistance, gas, and induction in the last five years. Always thought I would love gas, but turns out it's induction by a mile, followed by electric resistance. Gas is only good for heating tortillas over the flame or roasting peppers. Hate how long it takes to boil water and how it heats the room

I like gas burners but not sure if I would choose them over induction. I do not like gas stoves.

I would go either:
- Full ducted air, heat and AC
Or
- Radiant + a few mini splits in key locations. Although you can use radiant to cool, cold floors are uncomfortable, having mini splits as AC + supplemental heat sounds ideal.

Gas is much cheaper than elec here… you should check your local economics and make that decision.

If your planning on having a gen for backup power - A benefit of heating with gas would be only sizing that gen to move that heat, not make it…


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Originally Posted by Dantheman

The cooking surface does heat up indirectly via contact with the hot pan, so when you turn the heat down they are a little slower to respond than gas. Obviously they are much more responsive in the other direction.

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not so sure about that
seems like same thing occurs w/ gas stoves: the pan support frame on a gas stove is carrying not just latent heat from pan contact but also direct heat from the flame. So when you turn the heat down, those materials are lagging just the same

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Originally Posted by Hopeless Sinner

As far as adjusting the heat output the scale on mine starts at 1 and goes to 9 with increments every .5.

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ours is just 1-10; i will say i do wish it had .5 increments.
def gonna look for more spectrum when it comes time to upgrade, but i've been vary happy these last 9yrs

Yeah, the trick with induction is that you can’t go cheap.

The technology works great, but the American market has been plagued with crappy induction ranges meant to hit a price point. Too many with crappy controls and undersized coils that have given them a bad reputation. This has hurt adoption which has prevented prices from coming down on the good ones.

I’d love to switch my new house to induction but the previous owners put in a pretty nice electric range within the past year…hard to justify replacing a brand new stove that has seen just enough use that it probably has no resale value.

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Originally Posted by Hopeless Sinner

in 2020 upgraded the kitchen in the next house and added the Thermador w the "french top" w no distinct burners.

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Got any monacle recommendations? ;)

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Originally Posted by ::: :::

not so sure about that
seems like same thing occurs w/ gas stoves: the pan support frame on a gas stove is carrying not just latent heat from pan contact but also direct heat from the flame. So when you turn the heat down, those materials are lagging just the same

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The frame on a gas range doesn't contact most of the pan, but it does get hotter than the induction glass so maybe it evens out.

Our good friend who’s one of the best home chefs I know got a nice induction stove and initially hated it but now loves it. Her take was that initially it feels like it’s less controllable, but it’s actually that if both stoves go from one to ten, the gas stoves one to ten is the equivalent of the inductions two to six. Once she got used to two to three being a significant difference she liked it.


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Originally Posted by neufox47

Our good friend who’s one of the best home chefs I know got a nice induction stove and initially hated it but now loves it. Her take was that initially it feels like it’s less controllable, but it’s actually that if both stoves go from one to ten, the gas stoves one to ten is the equivalent of the inductions two to six. Once she got used to two to three being a significant difference she liked it.


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Yep - we have a Café induction range and the micro-control (it has knobs) is fantastic.

That’s what she has. One of the higher end cafe’.


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If using a heat pump I would go with a system like this. Not really into a bunch of mini splits all stirring the air with inherent fan noise. Radiant is just more comfortable and even heat.

www.arcticheatpumps.com

Modern building science calls for a home to be airtight and well insulated. You still need to bring in fresh air via an ERV or HRV so you'll end up with some ducting to move air around. That also means you can add some level of air filtration to keep the dust and smoke out.

I like redundancy so would use a gas furnace or boiler plus central air or heat pump. The gas unit can be powered with a generator when the power goes out in the colder months.

You should also plan for backup power by putting critical electrical circuits in a separate panel with a transfer switch. (I have a '70s era house but put my boiler on a plug and put together a power pack with a couple of RV batteries and an inverter. It can run the boiler for more than 24 hours if needed.)

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Originally Posted by singlesline

Yeah, the trick with induction is that you can’t go cheap.
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I don't know, we got a low end Frigidaire and we have zero complaints.

All of these questions would be a lot easier if Tele til your Smelly was building in CB where gas is no longer even an option anyway.

No an option due to Energy Code Reasons on Xcel is out of capacity?

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Originally Posted by goldenboy

I don't know, we got a low end Frigidaire and we have zero complaints.

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Ditto, we got the cheapest induction at HD and it's great. I have noticed that the "big" burner isn't as big as suggested by the graphics on the cooktop, which messes up certain things like scrambled eggs, but easily addressed by using a smaller pan that's the same size as the actual burner.