Is it possible to build a light, capable, mid-travel bike any more?

Mezzer Pro is an outstanding enduro fork, stiff as a fox 38 but lighter. The Mattoc Pro (which I also have) outperforms the 36 but is lighter but I’m not sure what travel you’re running up front?

My 120/140 Hei Hei is 27 lbs w/ pedals and decent tires…there are many 120ish frames now with good geo if low weight is the goal with an AM build. But by edging up a bit in the travel you’ve placed her bike in the trailduro category (hence the enduro fork weight and the 1900 g wheels choices?) and along with frame weight pushed into the 30s.

Simply having a speaker on one's bicycle is grounds for bitch slappage! Come on, man!

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Originally Posted by jdadour

My Stumpjumper in a large with carbon wheels and cranks, 850 gram tires, Deluxe Ultimate and a Pike 140mm is 28lbs. Yes its possible, and it is really versatile type of bike to have.

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this. same same same. shoot i dont even have carbon cranks , and im still at 28 lbs , s works frame, xtr/slx brakes, wao wheels, but exo+ tires , it's friggen amazing and think with a v3 one up , carbon saddle and xtr cranks i could get near 27, and again thats with heavier tires.

also i dont get this assertion that you need bikes in this travel category to be heavier as to be more durable or burlier ? i thrashed an 21 epic evo that weighed like 25 lbs up and down the PNW for three years , down all the same big ass trails i take my 170 status and it was just as solid and ready to ride as day one and im not a graceful super skilled rider, im a straight hamfisted bonehead. i think most everyone would be perfect on 140ish bikes at 26-29 lbs especially now that we've sort of settled on some really sensible geometry numbers. i hope now that bikes have gotten SO good on the whole more effort will redirect back to lightening things up. that would seem to be the historical trend ?

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Originally Posted by volklpowdermaniac

this. same same same. shoot i dont even have carbon cranks , and im still at 28 lbs , s works frame, xtr/slx brakes, wao wheels, but exo+ tires , it's friggen amazing and think with a v3 one up , carbon saddle and xtr cranks i could get near 27, and again thats with heavier tires.

also i dont get this assertion that you need bikes in this travel category to be heavier as to be more durable or burlier ? i thrashed an 21 epic evo that weighed like 25 lbs up and down the PNW for three years , down all the same big ass trails i take my 170 status and it was just as solid and ready to ride as day one and im not a graceful super skilled rider, im a straight hamfisted bonehead. i think most everyone would be perfect on 140ish bikes at 26-29 lbs especially now that we've sort of settled on some really sensible geometry numbers. i hope now that bikes have gotten SO good on the whole more effort will redirect back to lightening things up. that would seem to be the historical trend ?

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But have you gone back to the Epic Evo after having your Status for a while? At least for me, where the differences become really noticeable is when doing that kind comparison. The best you know is the best you've ridden. So while it's entirely possible that you'd still be able to flog your previous bike down the same trails with the same confidence and speed it's also possible that it would feel like a wet sock filled with tapioca pudding in comparison to your Status. Something overlooked with heavier/burlier frames is not just the weight, but the increased stiffness and dampness. Not much different than skis, I suspect. Yeah, you can ski that 1600g (or lighter) crabon touring ski inbounds on the same terrain, but the 2200g (or heavier) ski is gonna ski way better when the snow is choppy, setup, blah blah blah.

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Originally Posted by Full Trucker

But have you gone back to the Epic Evo after having your Status for a while? At least for me, where the differences become really noticeable is when doing that kind comparison. The best you know is the best you've ridden. So while it's entirely possible that you'd still be able to flog your previous bike down the same trails with the same confidence and speed it's also possible that it would feel like a wet sock filled with tapioca pudding in comparison to your Status. Something overlooked with heavier/burlier frames is not just the weight, but the increased stiffness and dampness. Not much different than skis, I suspect. Yeah, you can ski that 1600g (or lighter) crabon touring ski inbounds on the same terrain, but the 2200g (or heavier) ski is gonna ski way better when the snow is choppy, setup, blah blah blah.

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all fair points.

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Originally Posted by Full Trucker

But have you gone back to the Epic Evo after having your Status for a while? At least for me, where the differences become really noticeable is when doing that kind comparison.

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I handed down my old bikes to my kids, and had the opportunity to noodle around on my old Giant NRS a few years ago. I'm absolutely astounded that thing didn't kill me at some point during the 10 years I rode it. It was a fuckin' nightmare. :eek:

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Originally Posted by Full Trucker

But have you gone back to the Epic Evo after having your Status for a while? At least for me, where the differences become really noticeable is when doing that kind comparison. The best you know is the best you've ridden. So while it's entirely possible that you'd still be able to flog your previous bike down the same trails with the same confidence and speed it's also possible that it would feel like a wet sock filled with tapioca pudding in comparison to your Status. Something overlooked with heavier/burlier frames is not just the weight, but the increased stiffness and dampness. Not much different than skis, I suspect. Yeah, you can ski that 1600g (or lighter) crabon touring ski inbounds on the same terrain, but the 2200g (or heavier) ski is gonna ski way better when the snow is choppy, setup, blah blah blah.

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And that is what you hear when talking to a ebike rider.

Im not one. never have.

My bubby who is a national enduro rider and is rocket fast on a normal bike rides a ebike for downhill practice laps and he is amazed at how well the heavy feels ebike is glued to the trail going downhill, completely different ride. Heavier is not always a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by volklpowdermaniac

i think most everyone would be perfect on 140ish bikes at 26-29 lbs especially now that we've sort of settled on some really sensible geometry numbers

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That's my whole point. Can you get a 140ish bike in at 26-29lbs?
This IS a 140ish bike with carbon cranks, bars, wheels, and XTR driveline/brakes. And its an XS.
Park scale says >31lbs
Dropping 2-3lbs would require a lot of component choices I wouldn't want on a 142mm bike.

In a recent pinkbike article, they weighed a bunch of world cup XC bikes. Plenty of them were around 24lbs. Similar article for EWS bikes and most were around 37-38lbs.

If a world cup XC bike is 24-ish lbs, and an enduro race bike is 37-ish lbs, it seems reasonable to me that a mid travel bike is around 31-32. That switchblade is closer to an EWS bike than a world cup XC bike.

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Originally Posted by farmguy

And that is what you hear when talking to a ebike rider.

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A moto takes this up several notches. 240# with 12" of travel & gigantic tires... Even with the motor off, it just goes through stuff.

I think toast is right - it's mostly a death by 1000 cuts and going with enduro wheels & suspension on a mid-travel bike - but one thing not touched upon that helps those Transitions offered us as lighter examples is the suspension design. Those DW-style multilink layouts have extra rockers and bearings vs. a Horst bike, and that naturally bumps up the frame weight, all other things being equal. What size rotor did you give her for the rear? If I can get by with a 160mm out back (and still have modulation and the ability to lock it up on any terrain), then she might be OK with it, too. Unless of course Pivot's brake mount forces you to go bigger.... All that said, tell her I like her new sled!

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Originally Posted by farmguy

And that is what you hear when talking to a ebike rider.

Im not one. never have.

My bubby who is a national enduro rider and is rocket fast on a normal bike rides a ebike for downhill practice laps and he is amazed at how well the heavy feels ebike is glued to the trail going downhill, completely different ride. Heavier is not always a bad thing.

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7 lbs of motor 9 lbs of battery yer looking at 52 lbs for a full power 85nm E-bike no matter what the spec sheet sez, the mid power bikes are mid 40's cuz the batteries weigh less

with a full power E bike the component choice doesn't really matter cuz you got the 85nm's

a 170mm ZEB/ NX steel drivetrain / DW link suspension/ beefy rims & tires is fine SO don't waste yer moeny just get the lower spec of whatever E-bike you re buying IME

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Originally Posted by NuMexJoe

but one thing not touched upon that helps those Transitions offered us as lighter examples is the suspension design. Those DW-style multilink layouts have extra rockers and bearings vs. a Horst bike, and that naturally bumps up the frame weight, all other things being equal.

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I'm not sure that's necessarily true. It's the same number of pivots - 4 pivot locations + the shock pivot on both DW and Horst bikes. DW has some extra weight due to having 2 rocker links (vs. one on the horst link). But Horst link bikes have some extra weight by needing to beef up the dropout area to accommodate the pivot back there - a DW link rear end can potentially be pretty light since it's a solid rear triangle.

But having ridden a Switchblade and a Sentinel back to back, I think the Switchblade is just a beefier, stiffer bike. The Switchblade rides stiffer and feels like it could take more abuse. The Sentinel is flexier, and while I find that flex helps it track more smoothly though chunky terrain, the Pivot definitely definitely feels more stout (for better or worse).

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Originally Posted by frorider

Mezzer Pro is an outstanding enduro fork, stiff as a fox 38 but lighter. The Mattoc Pro (which I also have) outperforms the 36 but is lighter but I’m not sure what travel you’re running up front?

My 120/140 Hei Hei is 27 lbs w/ pedals and decent tires…there are many 120ish frames now with good geo if low weight is the goal with an AM build. But by edging up a bit in the travel you’ve placed her bike in the trailduro category (hence the enduro fork weight and the 1900 g wheels choices?) and along with frame weight pushed into the 30s.

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Bit of thread drift here. What’s the upside of going with the Pro vs. the Expert for someone who doesn’t constantly fiddle with their suspension?

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Originally Posted by GBB

Bit of thread drift here. What’s the upside of going with the Pro vs. the Expert for someone who doesn’t constantly fiddle with their suspension?

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Not much upside. I have both a Mattoc Pro and Expert and a Mezzer Pro. Once set it's set and forget

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Originally Posted by GBB

Bit of thread drift here. What’s the upside of going with the Pro vs. the Expert for someone who doesn’t constantly fiddle with their suspension?

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None. It doesn't have MC² damper or IRT air spring. So only rebound and LSC on the damper side. That's for Mezzer.
Mattoc is the same but their Comp is heavier due to different lowers material and can be adjusted up to 160mm vs 150mm in Expert and Pro.

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We’re chasing dragons. My large Rail 29 is just over 32# w/ a 38, 11.6, 200mm dropper, flats, and DHR brakes. It rides better than any bike of any weight I had from 10+ years ago.

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Originally Posted by LeeLau

Not much upside. I have both a Mattoc Pro and Expert and a Mezzer Pro. Once set it's set and forget

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Originally Posted by Robik

None. It doesn't have MC² damper or IRT air spring. So only rebound and LSC on the damper side. That's for Mezzer.
Mattoc is the same but their Comp is heavier due to different lowers material and can be adjusted up to 160mm vs 150mm in Expert and Pro.

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That makes the decision pretty easy. Thanks.

orbea does claim their fanciest occam sl comes in at 24 lbs, before you put pedals on it and such, but that is essentially a 140mm bike with xc parts on it. I had someone ask about one and was pretty surprised they could get that light. Even the fanciest fuel exs and such are 30ish and top fuels aren't much better.

The big hoops and Superboost are a part of it. If your wife is on an XS frame why not go Shadowcat? It’s a Boost hub and full 27.5, I haven’t seen many complaints about the inline shock - same travel as the Switchblade but smaller hoops and much lighter frame.

I was pretty damn eager to get a Shadowcat to replace my Bronson 1, but a demo ride on a Smuggler disabused me of that notion.

I think that’s a pretty damn burly bike. Outside of tires, I wouldn’t swap anything for an enduro race.

As has been said, I think the 429 is the “mid travel bike” which for a lighter rider you slap some 1400 gram wheels on there, a fox 34 grip, a lighter dropper and suddenly you’re in the 27 lbs range. Most riders on an XS don’t need parts build for 190lbs riders.

I currently have a previous gen Mach 4 and a Switchblade.

I do wish weight was more of a factor on current bikes but you can still build light bikes. My next bike will be the 115mm travel Mach 4 with a 130mm fork and some 1300 gram wheels. Hopefully 25lbs and fully capable of riding and trail in Moab with a little more forgiveness on stuff like Mag 7 than my current Mach 4 (which still does great).

I’ve ridden my current 100mm travel Mach 4 on “no shuttle” laps on the enchilada, mag 7 and others and think about how much better that bike descends than my 2010 Remedy, ASR7, 2014 Santa Cruz Blur or various other old “big travel” 26” wheel bikes I used to ride out there.

On easy option if you want it to be under 30 lbs is to take off the flat pedals and weigh it again.

Joking aside sweet bike. I really want an XS switchblade for my wife so I’ll cross my fingers you decide to move on.

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Originally Posted by toast2266

If a world cup XC bike is 24-ish lbs, and an enduro race bike is 37-ish lbs, it seems reasonable to me that a mid travel bike is around 31-32. That switchblade is closer to an EWS bike than a world cup XC bike.

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This makes the most sense.
Another point I wanted to make from upthread is when you go back to your old bike it has old stuff on it. Probably the frame is flexy, the fork’s not great or freshly maintained etc. But if you went back and rode a lightweight current bike, it would be pretty damn good on xc style trails.
The trails I ride from my house are all basically cross country trails, so when I wanted an upgrade, I got a single speed with new stuff/geometry, and it rides perfect for those kinds of trails

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Originally Posted by jamal

orbea does claim their fanciest occam sl comes in at 24 lbs, before you put pedals on it and such, but that is essentially a 140mm bike with xc parts on it. I had someone ask about one and was pretty surprised they could get that light. Even the fanciest fuel exs and such are 30ish and top fuels aren't much better.

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Accurate description. I had a beefed up Occam with Mezzer Pro and Mara Pro, Hayes brakes with 200 rotors, full XT everything else, carbon wheels with a DD tire in the rear, basically the 150/150 trail/mini enduro version of the Occam you mention, and it was right around 31 lbs. Same frame, 7 lbs of extra lard.

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Originally Posted by volklpowdermaniac

i hope now that bikes have gotten SO good on the whole more effort will redirect back to lightening things up. that would seem to be the historical trend ?

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Except if they keep adding crap you “gotta have to sell”—then it is back to death by a thousand cuts.

Integrated storage, adjustable geometry to go mullet, power meters from the factory, burlier bits, electric shifting, etc., they all add weight or cost (which leads to using heavier cheaper parts elsewhere on price point builds).