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That dude was soooooo lucky.
Walkie talkies are revelry for that kind of terrain. I wish there was a hands-free chips version for communication. Aside from the moto helmet versions with separate mics.
What happened to the odt chips version that was around in the form of an app years ago?
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I’m curious to hear more about where the snowboarder’s partners were as well as what the rescuer’s partner was starting to think after his buddy didn’t show.
rescuer appeared to have skins in his pack but victim wasn’t on a split board so I’m guessing his partners weren’t equipped to go uphill after him in deep snow.
Hard to do a beacon search up hill.
Rescuer's partners were riding ahead of him you can see in the vid. Snowboarder's partners I understand were also downhill.
You can't save shit from way down there. Lot's of people think they are riding with a partner when it is really just a collection of solo travelers. Mutually supporting travel/positions are key.
When in the trees, best to stick close. Whoop/Heyo/Yodle whatever.
Uphill searches are a thing. You gotta be fit and fast on the transition (looking at you, splitters). Uphill is when it is really nice to have the 100m range+
option on my Barryvox S (over the standard 70m) and not to be stuck with an old <50m range beacon.
Where was this at Baker? Snowboarder on a solid board so close sidecountry?
JFC somebody’s always last.
Would a split have kept him out of the tree well?
Judgement free, but wonder if a skier would have gotten so inextricably stuck in the same situation? Snowboarders just seem so locked in it's scary to me. At least on skis there's the chance to dig hands up and punch a heel piece free?
Either way, sobering video and one I'm glad was captured and shared.
Sidecountry. Oy valley trees between the arm and chair 8.Quote:
Originally Posted by altasnob
Thanks. So not true backcountry. I don't even consider this area sidecountry since you can ski in, and ski out, without hiking at all. Any shmuck can ski this run, and they do. You can throw a baseball from a groomed run to the area of this incident.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker
.Quote:
Originally Posted by altasnob
i'm sure the victim will be relieved to hear this
.
I'm just pointing this out to all the people scrutinizing whether all the parties involved were following proper backcountry protocol. This wasn't backcountry. It's essentially in bounds terrain and the only reason it is not included in Baker's patrolled in bounds is it would require patrol to deem the Shuksan arm avy safe in order to open. The real danger of this area is the Arm coming down on you from above and you being at the bottom in a valley terrain trap.
Side country is backcountry. Access methods are not relevant to risks, so they shouldn't change mitigations.
Tree skiing / treewell protocol is indicated inbounds if conditions warrant
Is where this happened even relevant?
Don’t more people die in inbounds tree wells anyway?
Isn’t it something like 1 out of 5 deaths from skiing and snowboarding are tree well related.
Tree wells in the north cascades are no joke. There's already been an inbounds death at Baker this year. Guy was alone near chair 1.
Years ago, I pulled a (not submerged) snowboarder out of a tree well between 1 and 6. He wasn't in any real danger of suffocating because the snow was mostly consolidated with a few inches of heavy pow on top - but he was stuck because he couldn't move or reach his feet. Had he been submerged, I wouldn't have seen him. I only knew he was there because he started yelling to me as I was approaching.
During one of the avy refreshers I've taken, they presented some pretty fucking scary tree well facts. Like during simulations, something like 90% are unable to extract themselves. And snowboarder deaths are more than double skiers'.
IMO, the rear skier is fucked if they go in a treewell, even if you are fairly close to your front partner it would take 30+mins for a partner to climb back up 30 yards in steep bottomless snow and then dig you out. Its just not realistic to be so close to an uphill partner and be so hyper aware that you can stop within a second or two of them taking a digger.Quote:
Originally Posted by bodywhomper
When my wife and i ski trees together she loses sight of me in 2 turns and so she just follows my tracks to ensure we go the same direction but also to find me if they end at the bottom of a tree. Vice-versa, when i follow her, i follow her... no veering off to random fun terrain i see.
An oldschool avalung is what i pull out of the closet on deep days. Gives me a little peace of mind that i can almost certainly get the mouthpiece into my mouth and breathe for an extended period until someone hopefully find me.
Agree with avalung for deep trees. Seems like the only realistic self support option when stuck in a tree well.Quote:
Originally Posted by californiagrown
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Sidecountry is backcountry, regardless of whether you can return to the area easily. To be sidecountry, that means it is not avy controlled or patrolled. Thus, backcountry. Just backcountry that is skied a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by altasnob
That is beyond lucky.
Not his time.
A friend and I decided to ski a run at the same time so we could keep an eye on each other. The low angle run was through untracked tress and ended at an open bench about 300’ below. He started on my left side and we hit the open bench almost simultaneously with him on my right. I did not spot him once after we started and he said that he didn’t even get a glimpse of me. One of us skied over the other’s tracks and didn’t even notice. If you’re not actually visually following someone, or their tracks, they’re skiing alone and, if you’re last, you’d better be careful.
I keep coming back to how the skier split a tight goalpost.
The only way to be safe is by giving trees a large margin.
I was in a tree well once. Scary as fuck. Had to grab branches and use my poles to clip out. But I was a hack back then and tripped and tatered into a hole. Wasn’t super close to the tree but gravity put me headfirst into the well.
My wife is super scared of tree wells. But doesn’t understand them. She thinks they exist in New England.
But. A healthy awareness and giving trees space is a good thing.
PS. The idea of skiing with a partner in trees is almost comical. Almost. The one thing that works is your partner waiting for you and being able to tell patrol what run you were on and where your partner might be.
That may what you, patrol, and ski area management want to believe but that is not reality. Reality is places like where this incident occurred are jong slaughtered by the clueless just as heavy as the in bounds right next by. I'm not saying that is right or wrong, that is just the reality and it is impossible to police it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danno
I treat tree skiing, and particularly tree snowboarding, in deep snow in the Cascades as fall you die terrain. Skiing with partners and skiing with gear isn't going to save you. Just don't fall. And if you are not confident that you won't fall, then ski somewhere more wide open. It will take a miracle, like in this video, to save someone fully submerged in a tree well. Most of the time, you can't even see the person from the surface and by the time you get to them with avy gear, they are dead. If are on a snowboard, you can't ski slow through the trees with a partner. You have to charge it or you are getting stuck on the flats in a wallow fest.Quote:
Originally Posted by californiagrown
The Cascades are particularly bad for tree wells because not only do we get a shit ton of snow, we have big trees with big branches that create gaping, unconsolidated, cavernous spaces in which to fall into.
Thanks for clearing up the “difference” between side country and backcountry. The tutorial on tree wells in the Cascades is especially enlightening.Quote:
Originally Posted by altasnob
Good to hear, although since you exclusively ski East of the crest you wouldn't understand as you only have spindly little lodge poles, an occasional needle-less larch, and a general lack of snow.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn
Who said anything about policing it? And I also said that it might be "backcountry that is skied a lot." Simple questions with simple answers. Is it patrolled? Is avy mitigation done for it? No? Then backcountry. You can argue with that because we all know how much you love arguing, but no amount of people skiing on it changes the simple equation. Berthoud Pass here in Colorado is skied all the time, and lots of people fall into the trap of thinking it is "safe" because it is skied so much. It's not, it's backcountry, expecting the same standards as exists inbounds is a mistake, both in safety and in rescue. Regardless of whether the great Altasnob deems it "backcountry" or not. Seriously, this is fucking "skiing out the gates 101."Quote:
Originally Posted by altasnob
And it can be policed. There are mountains where they'll clip your ticket for ducking the ropes and re-entering. I've known a few guys over the years who've been caught poaching closed areas at various mountains that resulted in pass cancellation/banning. Hit Elf Chutes on a sketchy day when the canyon is closed and find out!
Not only is Danno right, it's worse. Sidecountry is a made-up concept to downplay potential risk.