Trout Lake Fatality

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Originally Posted by doebedoe

My point wasn't to stop discussion. It was to frame it in a that isn't dismissive of the individual. The who, what and why I've got no problem with. How to avoid the accident, what we can learn, and put into place in our own systems to have better outcomes -- great to discuss.

I do not think risk tolerance and risk ignorance are the same things. Nor do I think someone dying in an avalanche is necessarily an indication of their travel skills. There are too many highly skilled people who die in avalanches for that to makes sense to me. Those types of arguments further the victim from our own decision-making (no one thinks of themselves as ignorant or lacking in skills) and lead us into thinking we would never make the mistake. That's not conducive to learning.

The things I'm personally taking away here are: some people just have a much higher risk tolerance than I do -- I need to probably not tour with them. (This judgment comes from talking to avalanche professionals who knew Devin and have cited this.) And that changing aspects that may have been red-lighted in my plan to chase good snow can be fatal.

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Dismissive of the individual?

Here’s how it would sound to be dismissive of the individual:


‘He was completely incompetent at traveling in avy terrain as evidenced by his foolish choice to ascend such a slope in deep slab instability solo and dying’

Don’t come into the slide zone subforum discussion about avalanche accidents if you are too sensitive to separate the individuals involved from their actions. This is the reason threads are started here, not to dismiss learning by saying “he had a high risk tolerance” or “mags knew him so dont make any judgements.”

And most importantly piss off with your attempts to stifle the discussion. It wont help this guy and it certainly won’t help us.


If I screw up and die, please DO make judgements about my decisions.


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Originally Posted by doebedoe

And that changing aspects that may have been red-lighted in my plan to chase good snow can be fatal.

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Originally Posted by hatchgreenchile

Burning suspect aspects into your brain, after every AM report, seems like a good one. YMMV

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This really is the only thing that hit home for me, coupled with the understanding of how thin of a line general aspect differences can actually play a part in a life/death decision.

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Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark

This really is the only thing that hit home for me, coupled with the understanding of how thin of a line general aspect differences can actually play a part in a life/death decision.

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Kudos to investigators for working with whomever to get his GPS track for the day. I think it adds a critical piece in understanding how he ended up making a costly decision.

I would suspect that he had his GoPro running
Doubt that sees the light of day

No doubt he had a gopro, but I do doubt that it was running when he was skinning up in a baselayer, nor would I really care to see what would have been on it had it been on.

I thought about it for a moment. It’s the audio that would take me down

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Originally Posted by bodywhomper

Comfortable risk tolerance: would he have been comfortable with the risk he was taking knowing ahead of time that he’d trigger an avalanche and die? I didn’t know the guy (rip), but the answer (“NO”) seems obvious to me. I’m unclear how that’s “risk tolerance.” Can somebody define some terminology for me (and maybe others)?

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Have you ever gotten into a car? Doing that equates to one level of risk tolerance. Skiing a 40 degree slope in dangerous conditions is another. There are also many in between.

I work in hazard mitigation. I understand risk, hazard, vulnerability, etc. maybe I framed it wrong. My view is that it’s more about complacency than a tolerance.

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Originally Posted by bodywhomper

I work in hazard mitigation. I understand risk, hazard, vulnerability, etc. maybe I framed it wrong. My view is that it’s more about complacency than a tolerance.

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I think youthful exuberance, ego, and confirmation bias play a big roll as well, but that is a hard thing to teach to a young person living in a bucolic mountain town with a good upbringing and a penchant for solo excursions in deep pow.

My point is, just because we have a different risk tolerance than others, even wildly different, doesn't mean we should assume they didn't understand theirs. Sure, as we get older we tend to have a different understanding (maybe better, maybe not) of the finality of death because we look at it more often. But that doesn't mean the more youthful way of looking at (or ignoring) the potential consequences is more wrong for some reason. I certainly felt different about my actions at that age than I do now. And i felt every bit, even more, strongly about it then. I was an adult of many years as was he.
He didn't die doing what he loved.
He lived doing what he loved.

There's quite a few of us here that can say that. But overall, on the planet, it's a rare thing. We should all strive for it.

And he died a moderate death, alone.

Jeebus. You’re a bunch of panty waist scared old men.

Young kid dies in an avalanche. Sure, let’s discuss daily hazard and route selection.
But I don’t think he was suicidal.
He was living life. More so than you couch jockeys.

I hope my sons outlive me. But shit happens.
I’d rather they live a shorter but more satisfying life than be some cubicle dwelling bubble wrapped sheeple.

^^ I’ll chime in a big fuck you on this one.

Calling someone who decides NOT to ski a high consequence line, solo, in mid-winter a “cubicle dwelling bubble wrapped sheeple” is fucking lame.

“Died doing what he loves” is bullshit. Skiing is amazing. I, like many of you, have made plenty of sacrifices to ski pow and it has certainly changed the trajectory of my life.

But it’s also a selfish pursuit that does nothing to improve your community or the world around you.

I’ve been bc ski touring for 25 years and I’m quite certain that I will continue to do so for another 25.

I’m sure he was a great dude and and certainly got after it. But “shit happens”?

Seriously? You’re lame.


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Yanow

A decade ago a dude died inbounds in toilet bowl
Wearing a beacon.

Shit does happen. Even with patrol mitigation efforts.

I was just saying the dude didn’t have a deathwish.

Yeah. He rode solo. That’s violating rule one of backcountry.

But it’s who he was and how he lived.

Can we talk about the forecast before he went?
Known instabilities?

That makes more sense in the slide zone forum.

There’s a persistent slab that’s been plaguing the San Juan’s since we started getting snow again in late-February. Everyone knew it.

And I’m not sure if “that makes more sense in the slide zone”…as decision-making and human-factor discussions are just as valuable (or more so).

I just don’t understand why you’d call everyone not taking (clearly) unnecessary risks a bunch of pussies.


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Riding solo is violating "rule one" of backcountry travel? I don't think so. Terrain management, terrain management, terrain management!

There are several accidents with momentary lapses in judgement, isolated features sliding, or bad luck that you could chalk up as "shit happens". This accident is not one of them.

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Originally Posted by hatchgreenchile

Riding solo is violating "rule one" of backcountry travel? I don't think so. Terrain management, terrain management, terrain management!

There are several accidents with momentary lapses in judgement, isolated features sliding, or bad luck that you could chalk up as "shit happens". This accident is not one of them.

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Well. Yes. Correct.

But so many people rage against solo backcountry travel that my brain farted out the default response. Beacons mean nothing without partners.

I’m not here for a fight. RIP to what seems like a pretty chill dude and awesome rider.

As for shit happens. It’s one thing to meadow skip.
That line he was riding was not a walk in the woods.

Yes. Terrain.

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Originally Posted by Core Shot

Well. Yes. Correct.

But so many people rage against solo backcountry travel that my brain farted out the default response. Beacons mean nothing without partners.

I’m not here for a fight. RIP to what seems like a pretty chill dude and awesome rider.

As for shit happens. It’s one thing to meadow skip.
That line he was riding was not a walk in the woods.

Yes. Terrain.

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Doesn’t sound like he was riding the line. Sounds like he was climbing or in transition. I’m not comfortable climbing consequential terrain with lots of objective hazard.

Terrain appropriate for the conditions is my mantra


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As an ER nurse I think I'm going to call a Drama Activation here. So looking at this image where do you think the rider was when the avi broke? The yellow X? presuming the red circle is the burial there doesn't seem to be an up track to the yellow X? "All of the fatal avalanche accidents we investigate are tragic events" CAIC

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Originally Posted by Kinnikinnick

I love to solo.

But please don’t solo in that type of terrain in those kind of conditions. If you do,it will simply be a matter of time until it goes sideways.

Sad. 29. Barely beyond childhood in the grand scheme of things and in the skill of BC travel.


As an ER nurse I think I'm going to call a Drama Activation here. So looking at this image where do you think the rider was when the avi broke? The yellow X? presuming the red circle is the burial there doesn't seem to be an up track to the yellow X? "All of the fatal avalanche accidents we investigate are tragic events"
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Originally Posted by whipski

As an ER nurse I think I'm going to call a Drama Activation here. So looking at this image where do you think the rider was when the avi broke? The yellow X? presuming the red circle is the burial there doesn't seem to be an up track to the yellow X? "All of the fatal avalanche accidents we investigate are tragic events" CAIC

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"Rider 1 likely triggered the avalanche in the area indicated by the yellow X, and was buried in the area indicated by the red circle. " From the photo caption.

CAIC has his GPS track from the day.

Some of the risk tolerance stuff reminded me of the Solving for Z film, as well as Z's interview at Totally Deep. Z argues that there is big difference between someone who dies in a slide because they don't understand the dangers (the snowshoers who died on Hoosier this winter come to mind) vs. someone who has decided they want to ski big lines midwinter and are willing to die for that pursuit.

I didn't know Devin, so I don't know where he fell on that spectrum, but I think the spectrum ties in with some of these discussions.

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Originally Posted by Core Shot

I’m not here for a fight.

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You are here to annoy and piss people off here, so fuck off. you live in the midwest or out east somewhere and you are telling us how much we out west are posers and don't manage risk every day????- you are such a clown. If you actually read the ski threads you'd see some people here get out A LOT. And that we've had A LOT of freinds die doing this. but you don't read anything here because you don't give a shit, you just post your shit to hear yourself talk. Or you have some mental issue I can't pin.



"As for shit happens. It’s one thing to meadow skip.
That line he was riding was not a walk in the woods.

Yes. Terrain."

No shit sherlock - pipe down and let the adults talk about this and try to learn. God damn you are the worst.

Yep but no gps tracks near the yellow X.

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Originally Posted by muted reborn

You are here to annoy and piss people off here, so fuck off. you live in the midwest or out east somewhere and you are telling us how much we out west are posers and don't manage risk every day????- you are such a clown. If you actually read the ski threads you'd see some people here get out A LOT. And that we've had A LOT of freinds die doing this. but you don't read anything here because you don't give a shit, you just post your shit to hear yourself talk. Or you have some mental issue I can't pin.



"As for shit happens. It’s one thing to meadow skip.
That line he was riding was not a walk in the woods.

Yes. Terrain."

No shit sherlock - pipe down and let the adults talk about this and try to learn. God damn you are the worst.

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I lol’d

Core Shot lives in the flatlands?


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Originally Posted by Tech Tonics

I lol’d

Core Shot lives in the flatlands?


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yeah but he'll come in brag about how he used to beater around Jackson when he was young, just wait.