Skis as “Anchors” in Avalanches

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Originally Posted by cat in january

Hopefully you have added a weak link to your leashes. The answer that it is best to become separated from your skis once you are entrained in an avalanche seems quite clear cut. You are looking for an answer to a question that does not lend itself to scientific testing. So you are left with speculation which has been given to you.

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I agree, experimental testing would be difficult. I’m thinking more data analysis to see if there is any relationship between burial depth and ski/snowboard attachment. Controlling for variables such as avalanche size, terrain, etc. would be important, but not impossible. But to your point, speculation seems like a weak basis for universal acceptance of a “fact.”

Personally my powder touring skis now have brakes instead of leashes. But I’m often left wondering what I would do I or a partner lost their skis. If you read the Silverton Avy School report related to the lawsuit thread, one of the victims (instructor) lost his equipment and needed to borrow a rescuers skis to get out. Losing equipment can also necessitate a rescue. How do you weigh the risks/consequences of equipment loss against the risks of attached skis in a slide if you can’t quantify the comparative risks/consequences?

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Originally Posted by cat in january

You are looking for an answer to a question that does not lend itself to scientific testing. So you are left with speculation which has been given to you.

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This.

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Originally Posted by Bunion 2020

I will add that this like so many topics related to snow safety will rarely if ever have a clear cut answer because "getting caught in a slide" isn't as simple as that descriptor would make it seem. It all comes down to, "it depends".

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And this.

For discussion sake, what would you change about your approach to traveling through avalanche terrain if research studies indicated that skis don't act as anchors? Keep wearing leashes? I think you can do that now if you have a good breakaway system, but I don't see much advantage to doing so.

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Originally Posted by Samski360

How do you weigh the risks/consequences of equipment loss against the risks of attached skis in a slide if you can’t quantify the comparative risks/consequences?

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If you insist on a data driven approach vs. "what do I know about my/my partners's tendency to lose gear and what backups do I have to deploy in that situation (bivvy, fire starters, rescue sled, inreach, etc.)" maybe look for data on backcountry deaths due to exposure vs. deaths due to avalanches.

I'd add that backcountry travel inherently requires one to make decisions based on limited and imperfect data.

. But I’m often left wondering what I would do I or a partner lost their skis.



Take two shovels plus voile straps and turn them into snowshoes

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Originally Posted by Bunion 2020

I will add that this like so many topics related to snow safety will rarely if ever have a clear cut answer because "getting caught in a slide" isn't as simple as that descriptor would make it seem. It all comes down to, "it depends".

I was caught ski cutting new snow soft slabs after running out of hand charges while on route, I lost the rochambeau with my partner, made the cut, the slope released and entrained me and my fucking skis pulled me under until I was able to ditch them. I did learn that you cannot swim when you have skis on your feet.

I was caught searching for an un-exploded hand charge on a 4F hard slab 2-3' deep and after being carried about 250 vertical I was able to ski off the still mostly solid hard slab, it was just starting to break up.

I was caught ski cutting a new snow soft slab that stepped down into a 1F layer about 3' deep and back above me. I was able to work my way to one side but accelerated to about 70 mph when one and then the other ski were ripped off my boot soles. I was glad to be rid of them.

In each one of those instances there was no clear answer.

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Thanks for describing these experiences. It’s fucking scary and there’s rarely a clear right answer to situations like you described. I’m glad you made it out and I respect the experience you gained from those events.

Really whenever we go into avalanche terrain, every safety step is just an attempt to move the odds in our favor, not eliminate risk entirely. Good decision making is the best defense, but I’m fallible and I’m not planning on stopping skiing. I’d like the deck stacked in my favor if shit does south on me again or my partners again. That’s the reason I’m asking these questions.

This isn’t rocket surgery


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That’s the reason I’m asking these questions.

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Fuck it man, its a discussion board AFAICT we are having one and there really are no dumb questions most of the time.

Here’s a reason to lose the skis, I knew a guy and his fiancé pretty well, they were out ski touring and he wanted to ski a spicier line. The rest declined but spotted him from a safe spot. He was caught in a small slab avalanche and carried through some larch trees. His dynafit toes were locked. His leg was disarticulated at the hip and he eviscerated through the gaping wound on his pelvis. His fiancé made it to him while he was still conscious and he died in her arms.


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Originally Posted by North

This.



And this.

For discussion sake, what would you change about your approach to traveling through avalanche terrain if research studies indicated that skis don't act as anchors? Keep wearing leashes? I think you can do that now if you have a good breakaway system, but I don't see much advantage to doing so.

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This is a good question. For me, I think if the data indicated ski attachment (at least with leashes) wasn’t a significant factor in burial depths I’d be skiing with leashes more often. I like that leashes reduce the risk of equipment loss, reduce gear weight, and make transitions less fussy. I also wouldn’t worry about my close friends who are splitboarders, and the additional risk they assume in the backcountry.

Some of my closest friends and ski partners are splitboarders and I worry about their safety. Our approach to skiing is that the group collectively assumes all risks. If someone sees a line they want to ski, the group discusses risks and dangers recognizing that an avalanche or injury is a group problem, and it’s everyone who’s not skiing that lines responsibility to stage a rescue if shit goes south. In other words, if you’re going to take a risk that might ruin everyone else’s day (or month or year), you should at least get their agreement first. If snowboarding substantially increases risk of a deep burial, that seems like it should be a group conversation (especially for those who are also good skiers).

I’d be curious to know if this would affect anyone else’s decisions.

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Originally Posted by cat in january

. But I’m often left wondering what I would do I or a partner lost their skis.



Take two shovels plus voile straps and turn them into snowshoes

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I can answer that. One of your partners gives you his skis. Than your two partners each ski down on one ski. Hopefully it is all down hill and a lot of kick turns are done. Always ski with good partners.

Yeah that’s a better answer

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Originally Posted by BFD

I can answer that. One of your partners gives you his skis. Than your two partners each ski down on one ski. Hopefully it is all down hill and a lot of kick turns are done. Always ski with good partners.

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Damn, apparently I need better friends with smaller boots. Or only skiing with attractive women with whom I wouldn’t mind sharing a bivy if we had to spend the night.

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Originally Posted by cat in january

Yeah that’s a better answer

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actually having my partners go for snow shoes was my first thought. They realized I was in no condition to wait by myself. Your idea is good. May cut some slits in my shovel blade.

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Originally Posted by Samski360

And we can let this thread die a peaceful death.

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^^^^ This and this .....

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The answer that it is best to become separated from your skis once you are entrained in an avalanche seems quite clear cut. You are looking for an answer to a question that does not lend itself to scientific testing. So you are left with speculation which has been given to you.

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Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn

Here’s a reason to lose the skis, I knew a guy and his fiancé pretty well, they were out ski touring and he wanted to ski a spicier line. The rest declined but spotted him from a safe spot. He was caught in a small slab avalanche and carried through some larch trees. His dynafit toes were locked. His leg was disarticulated at the hip and he eviscerated through the gaping wound on his pelvis. His fiancé made it to him while he was still conscious and he died in her arms.


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Fuck that’s awful. skiing with toes locked is something I’ve done, and also definitely in the rear view. Trauma is obviously a significant concern. I would assume a force significant enough to disarticulate a hip would be enough to release a non-locked out binding.

As a percentage of avalanche deaths, trauma represents the minority of victims (10-20%). Asphyxiation represent the vast majority of avalanche deaths. Among the traumatic injuries of avalanche victims, 2% are to the pelvis and 8.5% are to the femur. Thoracic, lower leg, and shoulder are the most common injuries (in that order).

Here’s a really good presentation that outlines the stats above and looks at equipment related issues that contribute to avalanche trauma.

https://youtu.be/XZ7Y5EzCiEg

I’m not arguing burial depth is more or less serious than trauma. And the two risks are related. But as a matter of probability, you’re more likely to die of asphyxiation. And asphyxiation is often a function of burial depth. I’m really curious about the factors that contribute to burial depth and ski attachment/detachment is one of those factors that may require additional study/analysis.

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Originally Posted by BFD

.... cut some slits in my shovel blade.

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exactly
improvise a snowshoe
fun-time is over at this point

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