I blame the Louisiana Governor

In 2001, the federal goverment, under Bush's orders to cut costs, ordered the city of NO to not open any more investigations or analysis' into flood management. Part of these investigations would've included evacuation and emergency management plans.

It's not like the Gov and Mayor have nothing to do all day, but twiddle their thumbs and plan for hurricanes. And if the resources to carry out these plans are not in place, how can you blame them. Do you think a bunch of poor people in NO and LA are going to vote for a tax increase to carry out these plans, nope. Not when the state and city's richest are only paying 5% of their earnings a year in taxes and the poor are picking up the bulk of the bill. Equity in taxation could've been the first step towards preventing these disasters. CJ had a good point about disaster prepardness in the rest of the country, it isn't there, so it's not like NO or Miss is setting some sort of precident in unpreperation.

By 100 or 1000 year storm I meant all the factors that came together to hit NO like it did. Camille didn't devestate like that and I've heard nothing of a storm of that devestation being on record. I was obviously not saying a CAT5 hurricane making landfall only happens every 100 or 1000 years.

Bush is a fucker no matter what you say. He'll probably no-bid hire Haliburton to rebuild NO. And bless Kayne West for saying so on TV yesterday. "George Bush hates black people." The look on Mike Myer, and Chris Tucker's face was priceless. And bless CNN for replaying clips and actually covering it instead of pretending it didn't happen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bossass

Camille didn't devestate like that and I've heard nothing of a storm of that devestation being on record. I was obviously not saying a CAT5 hurricane making landfall only happens every 100 or 1000 years.

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Galveston, Texas, 1900. About 9000 dead.

http://www.1900storm.com/images/panorama.gif

A bit more fodder for the governor fire.
CNN interview of Mayor Nagin by Soledad Obrien
I know that Bush's FEMA hack and the general red-tape pencil pushers have much to share also, but this governor is a weak ineffective simpleton.

------------------------
NAGIN: Look, I've gotten promises to -- I can't stand anymore promises. I don't want to hear anymore promises. I want to see stuff done. And that's why I'm so happy that the president came down here, because I think they were feeding him a line of bull also. And they were telling him things weren't as bad as it was.

He came down and saw it, and he put a general on the field. His name is General Honore. And when he hit the field, we started to see action.

And what the state was doing, I don't frigging know. But I tell you, I am pissed. It wasn't adequate.

And then, the president and the governor sat down. We were in Air Force One. I said, 'Mr. President, Madam Governor, you two have to get in sync. If you don't get in sync, more people are going to die.'

S. O'BRIEN: What date was this? When did you say that? When did you say...

NAGIN: Whenever air Force One was here.

S. O'BRIEN: OK.

NAGIN: And this was after I called him on the telephone two days earlier. And I said, 'Mr. President, Madam Governor, you two need to get together on the same page, because of the lack of coordination, people are dying in my city.'

S. O'BRIEN: That's two days ago.

NAGIN: They both shook -- I don't know the exact date. They both shook their head and said yes. I said, 'Great.' I said, 'Everybody in this room is getting ready to leave.' There was senators and his cabinet people, you name it, they were there. Generals. I said, 'Everybody right now, we're leaving. These two people need to sit in a room together and make a doggone decision right now.'

S. O'BRIEN: And was that done?

NAGIN: The president looked at me. I think he was a little surprised. He said, "No, you guys stay here. We're going to another section of the plane, and we're going to make a decision."

He called me in that office after that. And he said, "Mr. Mayor, I offered two options to the governor." I said -- and I don't remember exactly what. There were two options. I was ready to move today. The governor said she needed 24 hours to make a decision.]

S. O'BRIEN: You're telling me the president told you the governor said she needed 24 hours to make a decision?

NAGIN: Yes.

S. O'BRIEN: Regarding what? Bringing troops in?

NAGIN: Whatever they had discussed. As far as what the -- I was abdicating a clear chain of command, so that we could get resources flowing in the right places.

S. O'BRIEN: And the governor said no.

NAGIN: She said that she needed 24 hours to make a decision. It would have been great if we could of left Air Force One, walked outside, and told the world that we had this all worked out. It didn't happen, and more people died.

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http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...05/ltm.01.html

http://multigraphic.dk/lounge/weblog...rbara-Bush.jpg

I'm tired of hearing the political whiners blame everyone bu themselves. Nagin is the worst. Why didn't he line up the hundreds of school buses to haul people out when he announced every should leave before the storm?

Blame time is for later to fix the problems. Now is the time for planning what to do with 100k's of refuges without homes for months.

I'm sure there are things Nagin could have done that he didn't, but he did order a mandatory evacuation of NO a day before the storm hit. Let's be realistic here. After the levee broke and 80% of the city was flooded there was very little he could do. The city's resources were useless. At that point New Orleans had to rely on outside help and it was very slow in coming.

I don't disagree that after the levees brokes the problems went way beyond the city (or state) capability. I just want to see the politico's blaming the feds for incompetence after the fact step up & claim their own incompetence before the storm.

Yea, like that will ever happen. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Core Shot

I'm a partizan simpleton

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Agreed. Now can we move on? You may find this tidbit interesting:

"The 2004 National Response Plan explicitly states that, at times of

any natural or manmade incident, including terrorism, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or disruption severely affecting the population, infrastructure, environment, economy, national morale, and/or government functions,

the federal government pre-empts local and state government in its responsibility to act quickly."

People were warned to have 5 days of food, water, and medicine as part of the evacuation order. Although, why anyone who lives below sea level in hurricane alley would have to be warned about that boggles the mind. Anyway, it is interesting to note that water and food arrived right about that time.
On average, a category 4 or higher hits the US coastline every five years. It's not like they're rare. As has been reported ad nauseam, people became complacent; either because of being missed or having the storms peter out so many times.
One of the things that made this cat 4 quite possibly THE most destructive ever, is that it's the first time a US city below sea level has ever been involved in a hurricane of this magnitude (duh). I think we get it now. We've been schooled. How many Americans, outside of hurricane alley, could have even named the five most destructive hurricanes before this? We can now. The point is, the next time a Katrina-type hurricane comes along, wherever it may be, I wonder how many people will truly be UNABLE to evacuate.

As one of the few maggots who lives in Hurricane Alley, I thought I should maybe weigh in.

- First of all, LA was not prepared for this. Florida is better at this stuff. If we have a big cane coming, we are forced to evac. very early.

- We have city and school busses that bring the poor and disabled to safe shelters in other counties, at the forced inconvenience of the bus drivers. It is in their contract.

- We have ample warning to get this done, since most evac. routes run us over at least one bridge.They do not gamble. When in doubt, they get us the fuck out. Last year i sat on one bridge for 4 hours to get out. It sucked, but it was worth it.

- My county(population wise) is as big as NO, if not bigger. There is no reason why they could not have evacuated them sooner. They were counting on a turn. They won that gamble, but lost big time when the levee broke.

- When we are forced to evac., it is done by flood level. "A" being the worst or first to evac. By this thought process, NO would have been a "-A" flood level. They woulda been the first to be forced out, and they pretty much force people out of "A" level flood zones. They knock on the door, and make you sign if you refuse to leave. Then they blockade the street. End of story.

- When the evac. is mandatory, they drive down the streets with bull horns telling you to leave within the next 10 hours, or you are on your own until they can get to you. They give you no indication that help will come in 1 day, 2 days, or ever. You are ON YOUR OWN.

- I don't know what the fuck is going on in that state. That shit would have never happened in Florida, and it has nothing to do with who the Governor's brother is.

- When they find out about the Mayor's "Bananas and Blow" fund, I hope they don't shoot him in the street. I am convinced that most of this fuck up can be traced to some sort of corruption at the city level.

- Regardless, it is a fuck up on all levels. The blame game is just making it a worse situation than it is. We always need someone to blame.


Just thought you might like the perspective of someone who lives with this every summer. There are a lot on here talking out their asses. If all you know about a hurricane is what you see on t.v., then you don't know shit. If you have been through more than 1 or 2, then you know.

There is just a lot more to this than who screwed up after the strom passed. This thing was fucked 2 days before the storm got there. That is the local government's problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Endlessseason

People were warned to have 5 days of food, water, and medicine as part of the evacuation order. Although, why anyone who lives below sea level in hurricane alley would have to be warned about that boggles the mind. Anyway, it is interesting to note that water and food arrived right about that time.

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Many of those people who were warned live below the poverty line. Many of them have trouble putting todays food on the table, much less planning for the future.

so the governor has got to go, the mayor has got to go, only the president is going to stay in charge? who was it, that restructured fema. who was it that completely neglected two of the three catastrophic scenarios that can hit the US: a terrorist attac on NY, an earthqake in california, a hurricane hitting NO, and focussed everything on just one scenario..?

I see it coming: in the end bush will be the one who effectively restructures fema, the hero who wanted to help but was hindered by local and state authorities...

we should not forget he's got the most effective pr machinery that ever existed on earth. don't you see him hugging victimes on a prepared stage build up just for him and torn down afterwards leaving behind said victimes? you can actually watch him helping.. whereas the mayor is invisible behind the scene, without any pregnants to hug und drop as soon as the cameras are turned off. that shit seriously scares me. he fooled you once, he'll fool you twice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Endlessseason

People were warned to have 5 days of food, water, and medicine as part of the evacuation order. Although, why anyone who lives below sea level in hurricane alley would have to be warned about that boggles the mind. Anyway, it is interesting to note that water and food arrived right about that time.
On average, a category 4 or higher hits the US coastline every five years. It's not like they're rare. As has been reported ad nauseam, people became complacent; either because of being missed or having the storms peter out so many times.
One of the things that made this cat 4 quite possibly THE most destructive ever, is that it's the first time a US city below sea level has ever been involved in a hurricane of this magnitude (duh). I think we get it now. We've been schooled. How many Americans, outside of hurricane alley, could have even named the five most destructive hurricanes before this? We can now. The point is, the next time a Katrina-type hurricane comes along, wherever it may be, I wonder how many people will truly be UNABLE to evacuate.

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Done correctly at the local level, no one is UNABLE to evacuate, only UN-WILLING. That is what truly makes the NO situation sad, as I stated above.

I know it is not a popular stance, but I agree with most of what you have said, Endless.

I was on vacation this weekend in Key West [getting engaged(yes- to a girl)]. So I caught up with everything last night on the board.

You would be amazed at how much damage it did down there.

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Originally Posted by warthog

I know it is not a popular stance, but I agree with most of what you have said, Endless

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White suburbanites unite!

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Originally Posted by cj001f

Many of those people who were warned live below the poverty line. Many of them have trouble putting todays food on the table, much less planning for the future.

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That's my whole point! Do you think that "lack of money" will stop them from leaving next time? It's a rhetorical question.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Endlessseason

That's my whole point! Do you think that "lack of money" will stop them from leaving next time? It's a rhetorical question.

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Would rather be without shelter and starving in your neighborhood, or in some strange neighborhood?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cj001f

I'm a partizan simpleton who cannot possibly acknowledge anything outside of what Michael Moore and the NYT tells me to believe. No matter what any of you say, I know the real truth here.

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Yeah, that really helps.
Rather than trying some facts, some actual quotes or information, lets just re-characterize each others statements in pejoratives.

The whole point of me starting this thread was to address the knee-jerk "bush sucks, everthing he does sucks, and anyone who says he doesn't suck blows" thread.
Read anything I have written and see that I acknowledge Bush is an idiot, the FEMA director is incompetent and a political hack, and the response was tragically slow.
Yeah, that makes me a fucking partisan simpleton.
Sorry you can't handle the truth :the_finge

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cj001f

White suburbanites unite!

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Tanner?
What is your experience with Hurricanes and evacuation procedures? At least I speak from experience. Everyone has opinions.

THIS WAS ALL PREDICTED THREE YEARS AGO - note the date of these articles - June, 2002 :eek:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cj001f

Would rather be without shelter and starving in your neighborhood, or in some strange neighborhood?

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C'mon. Are you serious? Of course I'd rather be alive in a strange neighborhood than try to ride out a hurricane on my own. :rolleyes: ...and with that kind of a question, I think I'm done with this whole topic. Back to skiing-related stuff for me.

The LA Govenor, whom you cannot single handedly blame for the unpreparedness of NO for a storm like this, sent a six page letter to GW (in Crawford, because he was "on vacation" while the worst storm in recent U.S. history was hitting, and has anyone mentioned that he flew to AZ to golf the day after?) basically outlining the immediate need for all the resources and assistance from federal agencies and the military that Bush finally "thought up" and NO is starting to get right now--a week later.

I don't care about the LA gov in particular, but the way the Bush machine has twisted the blame to point in her and the mayor's direction is bullshit. And let's just say they are incompetent boobs, WHERE THE FUCK WAS THE PRESIDENT, THE MILITARY AND FEMA? To think that the gov was underplaying the severity of the aftermath and Bush didn't want step on any political toes is absurd to. Do you really think Bush cares or doesn't have the power to bowl over any state official or agency? And if the gov. was doing an inadequate job and deliberately downplaying the aftermath, isn't it Bush's job to step in and do something. All he had to do was click on CNN, NBC, ABC, FOX, MSN, etc to see the dire need down there. But it still took days. Food and water dropped from helis: 5 days later. Some dude in Florida loaded a cargo van full of food and water and drove into NO two days after the storm on his own. And if Bush did violate some State-Fed rule in coming in, so what? Doing something illegal hasn't stopped him from not firing advisors or starting wars. God forbid he do something illegal to help somone (other than himself).

A few years ago FEMA ran a model of a hurricane called Pam, a Cat5 to hit NO. It put the city under water. "Lord knows, no one is suggesting that we should ever prioritize levee improvement for a below-sea-level city, ahead of $454 million worth of trophy bridges for the politicians of Alaska. "

I'm sure all agencies and politicians involved in this whole tragedy could've done things different. But only a couple actually had the means to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cj001f

Would rather be without shelter and starving in your neighborhood, or in some strange neighborhood?

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most would have left but a large portion would have stayed, just because they know what happens when you leave your home unattended down there. not too many people commenting in these hurricane threads know what they are talking about. they tend to regurg last nights news to the letter.

New Orleans is and has always been a dangerous place for many reasons. people that have never lived or spent time in such areas just won't understand. i don't mean to say that all people down there are bad but the few that are can be worse than you'd guess. unfortunate childhood experiences groom them to be desensitised to violence and that blurry "right/wrong" line. when a something like katrina happens, some people don't lament but see opportunity. i don't think they were expecting that degree of damage but one it happened the thugs got busy doing what they wanted. most of that you wouldn't want to hear about. after the military arrived some dropped the guns and split. the small portion that stayed is still creating problems. one of my friends that just came back from N.O. by military escort was told that they had shot 58 people sunday night by use of night vision. they were looting and exchanging fire with people trying to help. those people are the reason that so many stay with their homes in the hope that the storm will turn.



it's the rest of N.O. and the coastal areas that i really feel sorry for.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AltaPowderDaze

those people are the reason that so many stay with their homes in the hope that the storm will turn.

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I think it's due to my bad english, but I am really not sure, that I got your point. Are you saying, that those people that stayed behind were trying to protect there homes from looters, or did they stay behind in order to loot..

seriously, I think it's a language problem, but could you clarify that for me?

greg, some stay in hopes that others will leave. the rest of the people stay in order to protect their homes. they are very poor so what is in that home is all they have.



i will find out in a few hours if i am leaving tomorrow for new orleans. i want to go help but my job will not be a good one. unfortunatly it will be search and recovery rather than rescue.

This is one of the most heartbreaking things I have seen concerning Katrina.

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BATON ROUGE, LA. - In the chaos that was Causeway Boulevard, this group of evacuees stood out: a 6-year-old boy walking down the road, holding a 5-month-old, surrounded by five toddlers who followed him around as if he were their leader.

They were holding hands. Three of the children were about 2 years old, and one was wearing only diapers. A 3-year-old girl had her 14-month-old brother in tow. The 6-year-old spoke for all of them, and he said his name was Deamonte Love.

After their rescue Thursday, paramedics in the Baton Rouge rescue operations headquarters tried to coax their names out of them.

Transporting the children alone was "the hardest thing I've ever done in my life, knowing that their parents are either dead" or that they had been abandoned, said Pat Coveney, a Houston emergency medical technician who put them into the back of his ambulance and drove them out of New Orleans.

"It goes back to the same thing," he said. "How did a 6-year-old end up being in charge of six babies?"

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6 year old kid putting president, FEMA, governor, mayor, et al to shame.
Rest of the story here