Spot on, splat.
Spot on, splat.
How's the morel pickin in there this spring?
Quote:
Originally Posted by splat
Don't count on this scaring anybody straight. People are dumb and last time I checked still put houses in the woods without adequate defensible space, while expecting firefighters to risk their lives to protect them.
How much do mass killers get fined? How many death sentences do they receive? Has that slowed any of the killing? Nope. Instead many in our society prefer to place blame on the kids for all of our ills. The children.
Like I said, the kid fucked up, but will likely be done with it in 10 years. Living here in PDX and witnessing all of the "nice" people threatening the kid's life and showing retarded mob mentality was a bit much is all I'm saying. This excessive fine kind of...fuels the fire.
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Well, that's fair. After all, Goldman Sachs and J.P. Morgan executives had to personally pay 1.3 trillion dollars for wrecking the world's economy in '08. Oh, wait...........
Quote:
Originally Posted by stalefish3169
But you can't just discount the potential impact of the symbolic fine here simply because 'people are stupid'.
Of course there will always be human-caused fires, be it accidental or intentional. And someone who commits arson are clearly more motivated beyond any threat of fines, so large $$$ amounts in the news won't help with those people.
I think the goal here was to set an example for those who don't entirely understand the devastation that can be caused, especially kids. Not counting on more than 1% to be re-payed, but headlines with $36.6 million on them will definitely be seen/remembered by some. There's no way to measure success in # of fires averted, but you can't just say that won't have any impact at all on kids (or their parents).
Simply put:
Mass Killers =/= Kids who stupidly start fires in the forest without realizing the potential consequences of their actions.
Different issues that need different approaches.
Won't bankrupty discharge, i.e. at parents level?
Too bad most of that work normally pays ~$10/hr.Quote:
Originally Posted by evdog
Speak with forestry folks and many people think this fire was much needed (and will be beneficial) to the ecology of this area!Quote:
Originally Posted by snapt
The way the justice system works, there's a great chance that in 10 years he'll be another adult with a recidivism problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by splat
How many dumbass teenagers do you think are even going to catch wind of this verdict, let alone become responsible citizens concerning fire?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rideski
Not a problem within the Russian community. He can join the mob or under the table construction work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peruvian
Came here to post this....Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny Profane
Well shoot, sounds like the kid should be getting a commendation not condemnation.
forest fire suppression and climate change has turned our forests into tinder boxes. ruining this kids life for a mistake, no matter how bone headed is ridiculous
37Quote:
Originally Posted by AdironRider
Well there are these things called "parents" and maybe they read and maybe they will impress upon their children the need to be responsible and careful but then again maybe it's all for not and we should just throw our hands up in the air and call it good. Seems like there is no solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdironRider
Former wildland firefighter here...
I think some people really don't understand what this kid did.
This wasn't a mistake like "oops, I didn't put my campfire out all the way or parked in tall grass". This kid walked down a popular trail in steep ass canyon in mid summer and dropped lit fireworks.
That is arson.
Furthermore, he legitimately could have killed all of the people up canyon from him if the wind direction was slightly different. I've been in that canyon, there is pretty much no where to shelter from a crown fire. He is really lucky no one was killed and he isn't looking at a homicide charge.
I don't think setting him up for a life of crime is a good plan, but neither is letting him off with a hand slap.
x2Quote:
Originally Posted by DBdude
the boy is 15 years old. I don't have enough hairs on my head to count the stupid shit I did as a kid that could have turned out really poorly under the right/wrong conditions.
if this was some 30y/o living in his mom's basement I'd be much less inclined to think the charges are a complete mockery of the justice system.
the problem isn't the kid. it's education.Quote:
Originally Posted by char_
^^No it's not, it's the dumbass that lit and tossed the fireworks. If you can't figure out that doing that is probably not going to turn out well at anything over 5 you're a dumbass and should be punished for it. Your parents should also be penalized somehow. Yes it should hurt.
Yes the kid was incredibly stupid and irresponsible dropping lit fireworks into that canyon. Speaking of stupid and irresponsible...Quote:
Originally Posted by char_
I spent my teenage years in a house on the south side of Rocky Butte in PDX. It was before I-205 was there. There was a county jail in the bottom of the ravine between where the highway now sits and the Butte.
When I was 14 two buddies and I thought it would be a cool thing to shoot old CO2 cartridges into the jail yard. Back then the orifice in those were big enough you could stuff matcheads in with some fuse cord. With a 2” piece of pipe for a mortar, a hastily constructed firing base and a dozen loaded cartridges we found a spot where we set positions. Being Boy Scouts, we took safety precautions - a bucket of water in case of fire.
We commenced to firing. All were landing short. We decided to stuff more heads into a cartridge. And that’s when shit went pear-shaped.
The matcheads ignited from friction. Our bucket of water had a hole in it. We lit that whole hillside on fire in a matter of minutes. Unlike the kid in the Gorge, we called the city fire department, who suppressed the blaze about ten yards from the houses above us, and about 50 yards from the jail. Fucking insanely lucky it wasn’t worse.
Yes we caught all kinds of hell from police, FD & our parents but we weren’t arrested and nobody had to pay restitution. As penance we had to do the house cleaning in the local fire station for three months. Which was a good learning experience in several ways - gave me a great respect for what firefighters deal with daily.
So my idea of Justice, much like mgirl & telehacker said upthread - put this kid on summer trial crews where he “earns” $22.75/hr (current USFS volunteer rate in OR) toward restitution. Do that for ten years and he “repays” about $110,000. Then let him off.
Well, if he actually got a job as a GS3 on a trail crew he would make about $13/HR. (Your local GS8 Hotshot Captain with 10+ years experience is making 22.50/HR base wage)
I say we ship him down to the California low security work camps where he can work his way via good behavior on to a fire crew. Some of those guys figure it out and get signed on to USFS or CalFire guys eventually.
I'm thinking 36 million, a reasonable payment plan that allows him to livebut has no disposable income is a good wayto keep him straight for 10 years.
The diff between $22.75 volunteer rate and GS3 base pay is employer taxes and insurance. Hell I “earn” $22.75/ hr doing trail maintenance for COTA and I’m pretty averse to hard work.
Serious question - how much of a degree in criminality would the kid get on a low-security jail crew vs USFS or BLM contract crews? But I take your point that getting him on a WFF crew would probably be a good thing for him.
BTW, good to see your uncle G at PPP Saturday- delighted and humbled by his progress and perseverance
his life is going to be fucked regardless unless he moves and changes his name. his community is stressed. all kinds of folks upset about it for all kinds of reasons. it's not just about a legal resolution.
It's not like there wasn't also 5 years probation and a crazy amount of community service with the FS included.Quote:
Originally Posted by char_