Intuition Liner Help

I have several months on my liners. Love hate relationship but it could be because the boot shell but I'm not sure. It took at least 10 days of solid skiing for them to feel unlike a cement cast. I have the 03-04 or 04-05Nordica Beast boot (year before the Hot Rod and different numbered Beast boots were released).

LOVE

• Warmth
• Efficient transfer of energy from foot/boot to ski
• Not hard to put on or take off after break in period

HATE

• Depending on god knows what the fit is money or painful
• I never had to fiddle with my buckles as much as I do now

I had my Intuitions done at their warehouse here in Vancouver. I wear othotcis everyday due to painful bunions. These unsightly bumps, obviously, present some boot fitting issues for me.

During my fitting Intuition told me that their liner "would support my feet without my othotics" and there was no need to use them. Now maybe for some people the pain goes away after a few days of skiing and then they are fine. But for me, I couldn't even get through a few runs! Holy fuck did they hurt!

So I went back and insisted that I be refitted with my custom orthotics. They complied and put the orthotics right into the shell, then we re-molded the liner on top of them. Voila! Happiness!

To me the Intuition logic seems flawed. Othotics/footbeds are designed to mimic the foot's shape in an unweighted situation. When weighted the foot/arch flattens causing pronation in many (most?) people. An othotic/footbed keeps the foot from collapsing, thus offering support and proper alignment. But if you are fitting a liner that is the consitency of "jelly" inside a rigid boot shell that then gets buckled/clamped down around an unsupported foot--well, I just can't see how, when that jelly-like liner has cooled, there will be any kind of proper support. Can anyone explain the reasoning behind Intuition's protocol? As I said, for me, it only worked once I put my footbeds back in.

I'm sorry I don't know which model they sold me. And they ride in my T1 bumblebee telewhack boots.

In the PNW they are too warm for me. And they get righteously stanky! But other than that I love them: comfortable, dry quickly, light weight. I'll be getting another pair this season to go inside my newly purchased MegaRide shells.

r.:cool:

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Originally Posted by rippah

To me the Intuition logic seems flawed. Othotics/footbeds are designed to mimic the foot's shape in an unweighted situation. When weighted the foot/arch flattens causing pronation in many (most?) people. An othotic/footbed keeps the foot from collapsing, thus offering support and proper alignment. But if you are fitting a liner that is the consitency of "jelly" inside a rigid boot shell that then gets buckled/clamped down around an unsupported foot--well, I just can't see how, when that jelly-like liner has cooled, there will be any kind of proper support. Can anyone explain the reasoning behind Intuition's protocol? As I said, for me, it only worked once I put my footbeds back in.

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search for "weighted" vs "unweighted" footbeds for a discussion of the pros and cons of each option for creating custom orthotics. intelligent people can disagree about which is better for your skiing.

it seems retarded, though, that intuition claimed their liners were, effectively, footbeds. that makes little to no sense and i've never heard that anywhere else.

i think that regardless of which method one chooses to create their footbeds, you should use that footbed when heating the liners.

baking your liners twice reduces their lifespan, too. that sucks.

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Originally Posted by upallnight

it seems retarded, though, that intuition claimed their liners were, effectively, footbeds. that makes little to no sense and i've never heard that anywhere else.

i think that regardless of which method one chooses to create their footbeds, you should use that footbed when heating the liners.

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I agree. It doesn't make a lotta sense to me either how they can recommend not using any footbed at all with their liners. Also the idea of putting the footbed in the shell instead of the liner when molding has me baffled too. It really makes me wonder if they are giving out the right advice.

Maybe there's something more to the Intuitions that I know about. Anyone out there with Intuitions care to shed some light on this?

I have moderately flat feet/low arch and had my Intuition liners molded with my Superfeet footbed,toe cap,and thin sock. I can imagine your pain without footbeds.

I concur: their logic seems illogical. Spock out.

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Originally Posted by wizard604

...Also the idea of putting the footbed in the shell instead of the liner when molding has me baffled too. It really makes me wonder if they are giving out the right advice.

Maybe there's something more to the Intuitions that I know about. Anyone out there with Intuitions care to shed some light on this?

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That' gotta be a typo or something, you can't use a footbed under the liner.

My experience FWIW:
I've got some older Dynafit thermos (older gen Intuition Powerwraps, also idetical to 2nd gen Raichles) I've got well over 700 days in them, many of which are 9-10 hour patrol days. They've outlasted five pairs of shells and are still pure love. I've cooked them three or four times due to packing out and foot changes. They are the lightest, warmest, most durable high performance liners available for any boot. I would never even consider using anything else again and just mentally add them to the price of any new boot. The garmont liners in no way compare to intuition. They are much lower volume and vastly inferior in terms of fit and durability in my opinion. The scarpa liners are the same basic style as intuition but are lower volume and don't last as long from what I gather. That said, some things I've learned:

1) durability can be directly related to liner care. I dry the liners thoroughly using a purpose built boot dryer, OUT OF THE BOOT, every night. My boot dryer uses a fan driving 100 degree air. The newspaper or heater vent method may work as well but they must be OUT OF THE BOOT. I also wear clean socks EVERY DAY.

2. If you've got bone spurs, cut some thick molefoam to shape and place it on the bonespurs under the sock/stocking before you mold.

3. I use standard superfeet footbeds in 'em and it seems to work fine. My foot gets too long and wide without footbeds.

4. If you tour in them, which I do, use runner's anti friction powder liberally in the heel area and it will extend the life of the inner liner. When this inner liner breaks down, use and exacto knife or small scissors to keep it trimmed neatly and prevent it from balling up. Keep using the powder.

Hope all this helps. I highly recommend these, they are well worth the price.

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Originally Posted by foxy

That' gotta be a typo or something, you can't use a footbed under the liner.

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I'm just posting to tell you that No, that's not a typo.
I couldn't believe it myself either. But after not using my footbed at all I decided I'd give the Intuition folks the benefit of the doubt one more time. (I'd tried to talk them into letting me form with my footbeds the first time but they insisted that the liner would create it's own footbed for my feet. Nope!)

Despite how counter-intuitive this practice of putting my orthotic under my liner seemed to me, it did work.

Or at least my feet aren't killing me anymore.:D

r.:cool:

with the orthotic under the liner during heat forming, wouldnt the liner conform to the orthotic (and work)?

the problem would seem to me that orthotics weren't cut to boot shells, they were cut to liners...

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Originally Posted by rippah

Despite how counter-intuitive this practice of putting my orthotic under my liner seemed to me, it did work.

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wow--i totally missed that in your earlier post, but if it works for you, that's all that matters.

personally, it seems retarded. my footbeds are molded so you can feel the contours of the foot -- even the toes. putting it under a thermo liner would diminish those nuances and may the footbed just an approximation not a perfect match.

the only reason i could see for them recommending this is that maybe they feel it keeps the footbed perfectly flat, whereas placing the footbed in the liner as it is heating may be more of a challenge to keep flat. however, this is not so valid because it's entirely possible to keep the footbed flat with careful technique (that's where having *2* additional helpers comes into play).

do they expect you to ride with the footbeds under the liner? if not, then why would you mold with it under the liner -- that would be molding the liner to the wrong side of the footbed.

jeeeebus.

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Originally Posted by upallnight

do they expect you to ride with the footbeds under the liner?

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That is what I was assuming

the argument of placing the insole outside the liner seems almost synonymous to placing an insole outside your running shoe on the bottom of the sole.

I mean isnt it called an INsole for a reason....otherwise it would be an OUTsole right?

maybe they encourage people to place their insole on the outside of the liner so that the foot places higher point loading onto the liner, thus making it pack out faster in certain areas, thus requiring more rebakes to get them to fit properly, thus making them last shorter, and finally, thus making them buy more liners over their life.

thats complete speculation of course

edit: id also like the point out that most insoles need support to keep them from just getting squashed flat. on the outside of the liner there is no support adjacent to the sides of the insole.

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Originally Posted by rippah

I'm just posting to tell you that No, that's not a typo.
I couldn't believe it myself either. But after not using my footbed at all I decided I'd give the Intuition folks the benefit of the doubt one more time. (I'd tried to talk them into letting me form with my footbeds the first time but they insisted that the liner would create it's own footbed for my feet. Nope!)

Despite how counter-intuitive this practice of putting my orthotic under my liner seemed to me, it did work.

Or at least my feet aren't killing me anymore.:D

r.:cool:

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So you ski like that?
That sounds as utterly nuts to me as I'm sure it must have to you when they did it. What I don't get is how they keep the footbed from moving around laterally (fore/aft too for that matter) inside the shell before and after the molding process, not to mention when you take the liner out to dry it.:confused:

Does not compute. And I have never heard of this before now. Whatever works I guess, maybe I should try it.

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Originally Posted by Summit

That is what I was assuming

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confirmation: that *is* retarded. (not your assumption, their philosophy.)

is it possible that the folks at the warehouse are really experienced in making good liners but not so experienced as the best shops doing the fittings?

how else do you explain it?

I don't know about those guys but a friend of mine took hers to a very reputable bootfitter in Telluride after having bad luck in Durango and they put the TOE CAP ON THE OUTSIDE of the liner.
WTF?
She didn't know any better at the time and needless to say, her boots are still unbearable. Maybe they were confused by the Intuition shop manual or something. Takes all kinds I guess.
The footbed thing still sounds retarted to me too and I wouldn't even believe someone would do that or ski like that if we didn't have first hand testimoney here.

IMHO, putting the footbed outside the liner would defeat the original purpose of the footbed. Plus how the heck would you be sure that you have the footbed in the right spot for proper registering with your foot when it's floating around on the outside of the liner?

Any molding of the liner I'm going to have done, will be with the footbed inside the liner.

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Originally Posted by foxy

I don't know about those guys but a friend of mine took hers to a very reputable bootfitter in Telluride after having bad luck in Durango and they put the TOE CAP ON THE OUTSIDE of the liner.

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we need a separate thread about all the assinine things these "bootfitters" are telling folks to do.

gives the real experts a bad name.

...now where did I put that dead horse?

For the record:

My othotics are prescription orthotics. I currently have 3 pairs. The first set I ever got were made with the "unweighted" protocol. My foot was held in a stable position by the Doc while he wrapped plaster impregnated gauze around it to make a mold. That was 10 years ago and these have become the footbeds I use inside my shells. It took 2 adjustments to get them right. (ie. they re-shaped and re-made them twice.) They are made of rigid plastic and are 3/4 length with a cushion-y top skin that extends the full length of my foot.

I've also had "weighted" othotics made. I stepped into little boxes of compressable foam while the technician watched to ensure proper leg/ankle alignment. 3 sets of othotics were done with a technician who made them with cork. All of them killed my feet. I finally just gave up on them--it was a long drive out there.

My latest pairs have been made in the same "weighted" fashion but with a different technician who works with the rigid plastic. They are great--3/4 length with a full length neoprene insole glued to the tops. I wear these every day in my shoes. If I didn't have them I would have a hard time getting through a long day on my feet.

During my second fitting with Intuition they placed my orthotics inside the boot shell with the heel cup resting right at the back of the boot. The othotics actually fit into my T1s quite well. They don't shift around at all but I think we may have put some double-sided tape in there to hold them steady while doing the fitting. The liners were baked, slipped over my feet, stockings slipped over the liners, the whole thing shoved into the boots and the boots buckled up for a cooling down.

The liners mold to your foot shape on the inside but they also mold to the boot shell shape on the outside. Hence, my liners have ridges and indents that follow the shape of the othotics, shell overlap and rivets. The othotics are placed inside the boots shells everytime I use them--I can't believe that the liners would support me without them.

Normally the othotic sits right next to my foot--only a sock separates them from the bottom of my feet. The Intuitions are like a big, thick sock. It's not at all like putting an insole underneath a running shoe. However, because it is such a big, thick sock the alignment of the orthotic would seem to be offset from my foot. I'm absolutely sure it is--at least a little. Yet it seems to be an amount that is acceptable because I really have no complaints about the current system.

Weird and counter-intuitive? You betcha. Would I recommend this "fix" to others? Probably not. But for some reason it is working for me.

I've bought some G-Rides this year (welcome back to the dark side) and will be putting new Intuition liners into them. It'll be interesting to see what sort of fit issues I come up against this time. If anything unique happens I'll let you all know.

r.:cool:

So here's the bump.

Last week Rob from Intuition fit my G-Rides for me. I reminded him of the various devices and techniques he used when fitting my T1s a few years ago (orthotic inside the shell etc.) and he said he wasn't doing that anymore.

Mostly he's developed a new heating system which sticks 2 tubes into the liners while they are in the shells and pumps hot air into them. This must've taken 15 or 20 minutes before they were ready. He doesn't use the oven anymore he said because that system had chronic issues. ie. heel pocket, toe cap space etc. His feeling is that the amount the liner deforms when it is hot and pliable as you stuff it in the shell was the main source of these recurring issues. Apparently he is selling these new machines at cost to his dealers.

Rob put my othotics inside the liner this time--after they'd been heated. He also padded out my toes with a toe cap but that was it. Previously he added padding to all my hot spots--bunions, ankles etc. He also used a larger liner size than the last time saying that he wants to fill up the shell space as much as possible, making the fit tight.

Well, the fit seems tight and comfortable. Soon I'll ski them and let you know if anything interesting develops. I went with the stiffer liner, the Alpine overlap, to give my boots better response. He said most AT people were asking for more flex, not more stiffness.

r. :cool:

Have you tried a more flexible footbed?

Some people's feet are more comfortable with firm cork footbeds, others need more flexibility.

I've used both and found that the semi-flexible non-cork footbeds work best for me, my feet are happier and my feel for the snow and ability to make small edging/balancing moves is greater.

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Originally Posted by uncle crud

Have you tried a more flexible footbed?

Some people's feet are more comfortable with firm cork footbeds, others need more flexibility.

I've used both and found that the semi-flexible non-cork footbeds work best for me, my feet are happier and my feel for the snow and ability to make small edging/balancing moves is greater.

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:cool: You nailed it Crud...there are some 'fitters out there who still believe in posting EVERY foot. The new norm is to get a good neutral immpression, and go without posting (filling in under the arch). That way, you can achieve more sensitivity, as you mentioned, and also be able to unlock the sub-taylor joint and rrroooollll into your turn. I also find not being so locked in is actually warmer as the foot can move a little more naturally in the boot. Take a look at a close-up photo of Bodie's boots and you will see that not only are the ankles punched out, but the navicular bone right below and just forward of the ankle is also punched or rolled out, to achieve an easier roll into the tun with the whole ankle joint.:wink:

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Originally Posted by rippah

So here's the bump.

Last week Rob from Intuition fit my G-Rides for me. I reminded him of the various devices and techniques he used when fitting my T1s a few years ago (orthotic inside the shell etc.) and he said he wasn't doing that anymore.

Mostly he's developed a new heating system which sticks 2 tubes into the liners while they are in the shells and pumps hot air into them. This must've taken 15 or 20 minutes before they were ready. He doesn't use the oven anymore he said because that system had chronic issues. ie. heel pocket, toe cap space etc. His feeling is that the amount the liner deforms when it is hot and pliable as you stuff it in the shell was the main source of these recurring issues. Apparently he is selling these new machines at cost to his dealers.

Rob put my othotics inside the liner this time--after they'd been heated. He also padded out my toes with a toe cap but that was it. Previously he added padding to all my hot spots--bunions, ankles etc. He also used a larger liner size than the last time saying that he wants to fill up the shell space as much as possible, making the fit tight.

Well, the fit seems tight and comfortable. Soon I'll ski them and let you know if anything interesting develops. I went with the stiffer liner, the Alpine overlap, to give my boots better response. He said most AT people were asking for more flex, not more stiffness.

r. :cool:

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i got kryptons from cosmo in tahoe city with the new intuition liner + corks and this is how he molded them. only 2 days on them so far and im still getting used to them but i love em so far.

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Originally Posted by upallnight

intuition power wraps are the best thermo liners out there.

my experience shows that they last:
* 120 days from the first cooking;
* 100 days on the second bake;
* 80 days on the 3rd bake...and then they're done.

that's quite a bit longer than any other thermo liner. it's not unusual for me to have them last into a 3rd season.

i think the MSRP/non-hookup-price is $189 or $209 or something like that.

i hear what you're saying about theoretically being able to do everything a bootfitter can at home, but in my experience it just doesn't work out that way. the best shops i've been to actually have two people assist with the thermo fitting. there's a bunch of prep work to getting set up for it and keeping your boot open so that (a) the heated liner can slip in easily and (b) your foot can get in there immediately without creating any creases.

Little details, liketaping spacers to key areas of your feet and slipping a stocking on over your footbed + foot + spacers are easy to forget at home and sometimes not that easy to do if you're flying solo.

a good shop will probably rebake your liners for the life of the liner, too.

garmont liners are not constructed nearly as well, by comparison. so far, leelau is the only one i've heard whose liners are lasting, but i think he mentioned he has less than 50 days on 'em so far.

if i had to, i'd pay retail for intuition power wraps. i think they're worth it.

good luck in your decision.

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UPDATE - now up to 70 days on my Garmont liners and they're still lasting and have no perceptible wear.

I did this before I used them - put ducttape over all the rivets on the inner part of the boot.

Good info, Lee. Today was actually my 126th on my Intuitions. No wear on the outside (and I didn't take any special care with them at all or place duct tape anywhere), but they are starting to pack out a bit. I've only heated them once and will probably mold them a 2nd time soon, which I would expect to last another ~100 days before needing a 3rd & final heating.

Not news, but intuitions are frickin awesome. I've had foot issues for years and my boots now fit how I've always imagined they should. If in Tahoe, consider Buck at Java Summit Sports. He'll fit you with a low volume custom footbed that, in combination with the liner, makes your skis feel like they are attached to your feet. Don't buy into the "you don't need a footbed" bullshit from intuition.

More Update.

My G-fit liners died after I skied through a swamp on a traverse gone bad. http://www.leelau.net/2007/mcbride0704/day3/

I got some Intuition liners and had them fit by Crystal and Rob using the same technique described by rippah.

What a revelation! The best thing I've ever done. I thought the G-fits were fine. Turns out that Intuition liners are the best fit, and significantly stiffened my Megaride to the extent that I put back my soft touring tongue and took off the flexon tongues with which I had modified the boot.

I have found religion and it is Intuition

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rippah

So here's the bump.

Last week Rob from Intuition fit my G-Rides for me. I reminded him of the various devices and techniques he used when fitting my T1s a few years ago (orthotic inside the shell etc.) and he said he wasn't doing that anymore.

Mostly he's developed a new heating system which sticks 2 tubes into the liners while they are in the shells and pumps hot air into them. This must've taken 15 or 20 minutes before they were ready. He doesn't use the oven anymore he said because that system had chronic issues. ie. heel pocket, toe cap space etc. His feeling is that the amount the liner deforms when it is hot and pliable as you stuff it in the shell was the main source of these recurring issues. Apparently he is selling these new machines at cost to his dealers.

Rob put my othotics inside the liner this time--after they'd been heated. He also padded out my toes with a toe cap but that was it. Previously he added padding to all my hot spots--bunions, ankles etc. He also used a larger liner size than the last time saying that he wants to fill up the shell space as much as possible, making the fit tight.

Well, the fit seems tight and comfortable. Soon I'll ski them and let you know if anything interesting develops. I went with the stiffer liner, the Alpine overlap, to give my boots better response. He said most AT people were asking for more flex, not more stiffness.

r. :cool:

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