Avalanche Death 12.24.12 Donner Ski Ranch

Your right, i can't ski... but I ride better then you ever will! if it was a seven year old i would blame the parents and rightly so, not the resort like your implying should happen...time to wake up and smell the coffee... what we do is dangerous, people die, this is not the first friend that I've lost at dsr (same problem, riding alone, if you do it accept responsibility for it and don't blame others), and rocker was a friend... lost another friend at sugar bowl last year, once again same problem, it was people like you who don't keep an eye on their friends after taking them into terrain like this and then want to lay the blame where it doesn't belong because you don't take personal responsibility... If I happen to die on one of my many solo missions then please blame me, because it was my fault and not the resorts... even with my 12 units of uc transferable avy science, emt, gear, experience, etc. if I'm alone and go into terrain like this and die or get hurt, for you to blame anyone but me would be absurd and no, dsr wouldn't give me a lifetime pass for my first post, I buy them every year because dsr has more heart then your favorite mountain, squaw, judging by your attitude...

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Originally Posted by snapt

Not buying it Bodhi. There's a small contingent of very competent riders at DSR that lap this constantly on pow days (of which Rocker was a part of), and the general public laps the face just lookers right of the cliffs regularly. It could very well have been just about anyone, advanced or not, enjoying a few pow turns before veering back away from the cliffs.

It doesn't need to be closed but the obvious danger of the only slide path on the hill during a pretty heinous cycle should be mitigated if it is going to be open for riding. DSR doesn't shoot and after a slide into a trap failed to consider the worst case scenario. Patrol is lucky it wasn't one of them who triggered it and got swept from posting the cliff warning signs that morning.

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I know that dsr patrol always ski cuts that upper palisades cornice... that doesn't mean that they will get it to slide every time, that again is the nature of the beast... the bottom line, if he had his friends watching him the chances of this being a fatality would be GREATLY diminished!!! If you ride alone, accept responsibility for your actions!

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Originally Posted by Bodhi Moon

I would like to clarify a couple things about this accident. For those of you that don't know this terrain is directly in the front of the mountain, in order to access it you have to ride a chairlift that travels directly over these cliffs and start zones, it is labeled double black and is obviously not only a starting zone but a starting zone in an avalanche terrain risk scale of 1 or 2 (one being the most dangerous signifying that if an avy occurs there will be death/serious consequences), common sense dictates that you not only have the skills to ride it but that also, and most important in this situation you don't ride it alone or with no one knowing that you were at least headed to palisades, especially with early season conditions and a high avy danger. It is a common slide area at the resort that often causes small avalanches (which this was)and considering the visibility of the area (visible from the lodge, bar, chairlifts, bunny hill, etc) just because they had a slide there would not indicate a need for immediate search and rescue because a)you shouldn't be riding it alone and b) the likely hood of getting caught and buried there and not being seen by someone/anyone is minuscule to the extreme degree (I still have a hard time believing that no one saw it). For those of you claiming that it should be closed, take up another sport like table tennis! Palisades at dsr is obviously double black terrain and if you decide to ride it you are obviously risking life and limb to do so, that is the nature of our sport. I myself broke my neck, shoulder, and had 9 stitches through my helmet last year on these same cliffs, my other friend broke his back a week before... but when i was laying there unconscious and bleeding my friends were trying to get to me, i was not alone! that is the nature of what we do, blaming dsr for it is absurd... if your going to lay the blame, lay it where it belongs, with the victim via personal responsibility and the victims friends for letting him ride double black terrain alone, It's not like people of a lower skill set cant take an alternate and easier route to the bottom of these cliffs (top of the bunny hill) and watch there friends go big... If you ride stuff like this alone (like I regularly do) then accept responsibility for your actions and the possible consequences! and don't blame the resort for your own mistakes...

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a few stupid questions:
-where do you get this "double black diamond" / "risk scale of 1 or 2" stuff? http://www.donnerskiranch.com/trialmap.html
-why do you call that a small slide, the crown is pretty big (and clearly big enough to bury somebody)?
-not closing the area and doing a probeline search on a newly slid (and easily visible) area after operations for the day have begun sounds crazy (and negligent).
-do your friends wait in the runout?

imo, the buddy system only goes so far in resort powder-day skiing.

Hey D-Bag Bodhi, sorry you broke your neck but it sounds like you didn't have the skills to ski it. Wtf is your deal anyways Mr Cuntmuffin? do you work for the resort?

Anyways everything you said is stupid (guy had friends who alerted patrol, not a small slide for in-bounds) but here is the main thing

A FUCKING AVALANCHE HAPPENED IN THE MIDDLE OF THE RESORT ON A CROWDED DAY AND PATROL DID NOT EVEN TRY TO FIND OUT IF SOMEONE WAS CAUGHT UNTIL IT WAS WAY TOO FUCKING LATE.

shit happens skiing, but at a resort you at least expect patrol to respond, after all that is their fucking job. And it could have easily been a young kid (lots of kids under 10 could handle terrain like that without breaking their neck)

In conclusion, I don't think this run should be closed. I think this mountain should be closed until they get some new fucking management.

I just saw your more recent post but still everything you have to say about this is completely fucktarded and still I have no clue why you and all your friends are unable to stay alive on the hill.

but just so you shut the fuck up, i copied this from the article:

"By the time rescuers reached the man, Anderson had been buried in snow for about five hours.
Reports indicate that there were several people skiing and snowboarding in the affected area, deputies said.
Anderson's friends were left in shock after the incident.
They said he had just moved back to the area and was enjoying his first day of the season on the hill.
“We had been telling ski patrol ‘we’re missing a guy, we’re missing a guy,' but they didn't start looking for him until two to three hours later," said Katana Curven, Anderson's friend."

Goddamn Bodhi, you're a fucking moron and a half. Were you that dumb before the injury, or was it that apparently bigass hit on the head that made you such an idiot?

WOW Bodhi. Didn't think someone could post three of the dumbest fucking posts in a row. Congrats! Also, if you're trolling in an avy death thread, you can go fuck yourself. Actually you can go fuck yourself either way. Way to completely miss the point on this whole thing.

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Originally Posted by Bodhi Moon

If I happen to die on one of my many solo missions then please blame me, because it was my fault and not the resorts... even with my 12 units of uc transferable avy science, emt, gear, experience, etc.

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Thank god they are UC transferable. Got nervous there for a second and thought maybe you didn't know what you were talking about.

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Originally Posted by Bodhi Moon

what we do is dangerous, people die, this is not the first friend that I've lost at dsr

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You've had multiple friends die in inbounds avalanches at DSR???

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If I happen to die on one of my many solo missions then please blame me, because it was my fault and not the resorts...

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I generally don't refer to skiing under a ski lift as a solo mission. However, since DSR doesn't advise everyone to bring a full avi kit and ski with a partner under the lift, what would the buddy system have done? Afterall, apparently DSR patrol didn't do a full search until hours after they were told someone was missing. I fail to see you point.

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even with my 12 units of uc transferable avy science, emt

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You took a 120 hour EMT-B class and a 24 hour Avalanche 1? I guess that makes you a real expert and nobody else on the forum could possibly know enough to legitimately disagree! :rolleyes2:

My point is that if you ride alone, you take a much greater risk! Year after year people keep dying and 90% of the time it could be different if there friends had kept a better eye on each other!!! If you do it on a double black with an ATR scale of 1/2 then you are taking an even greater risk! Where do I get the double black? From all the signs clearly posted above dsr palisades and the clear nature of the terrain. The avalanche terrain risk scale asks the simple question "if it does slide, how bad is it going to be?" If your right above a large early season cliff band then that would indicate slides are going to be more dangerous and normal safety precautions should be taken, like riding with a friend to keep an eye on you... In my over 20years riding, with over 100 days a year, I Have never seen a resort start a probe line just because there is an inbounds avy... especially a small one, where do i get that it was a small one, by knowing my shit... avys are rated on a scale of R1 through R5, with a small avy being an R2 (Could bury, injure, or kill a person, approximate path length 330ft, 100 m). And no I didn't just take a one weekend avy one course but three college semesters of a 4 unit avy class, my 5 unit emt class twice, and I'm a level 3 snowboard instructor that regularly hits dsr palisades, many times in the past with rocker. Bottom line, is if someone had seen him get buried then the chances of this being a fatality would be GREATLY diminished! He was buried in a easily accessible rescue area where rescue would of been quick and simple, I myself have saved people buried in the same area! If I hadn't been there then they would of also died! Because of the small size of the avy the chances of him dying from trauma injuries were small, if he would of been dug out within 30 minutes survival rates go up to over 50%. According to the reports "The sheriff's department received a call about the missing man at noon Monday, nearly three hours after the avalanche." why did it take him 3 hours to get reported missing? because he was riding alone... The simple fact that no one saw and reported it, especially in such a HIGH visibility area, would indicate to patrol that no one was caught in it. With no missing person report, and no one seeing it, patrol should be given a little slack for not setting up a probe line like some people have called for... I'm not saying this isn't a terrible tragedy, it is, I'm not saying that Steve did anything that I wouldn't do, because he didn't, what I'm saying is "that if you ride alone, you are taking a much greater risk of death!!! and you or your friends and family need to take that into account when laying blame" Don't make an assumption that just because it is a highly visible area you'll be seen, we all know where assumptions lead us. The most important avy rule of all, especially when it is an high avy danger conditions, is to ride with friends and keep an eye on each other! That is all I'm trying to say! And for the record I don't think much of dsrs patrol, they didn't even backboard me when I had a mechanism of injury that crushed my helmet and lacerated my shoulder to the bone, but in this case, I can't lay the blame at their feet, just because there was a slide there would not indicate an immediate search, that cornice slides all the time and I know that rocker knew that it "regularly" slid, so he knew what he was getting into... if a friend had seen him (and no, you don't need to be in the run out zone to watch!) then he would still most likely be alive today!

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Originally Posted by Bodhi Moon

I Have never seen a resort start a probe line just because there is an inbounds avy... especially a small one, where do i get that it was a small one, by knowing my shit.

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Around here if anything slides inbounds in an open area it's treated as a live burial until proven otherwise. Avy dogs, probe lines, etc. Why would you want to operate any other way? Best case you save a life, worst case you have a great training opportunity..

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Originally Posted by Bodhi Moon

He was buried in a easily accessible rescue area where rescue would of been quick and simple, I myself have saved people buried in the same area! If I hadn't been there then they would of also died!

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So what you're saying is this is an area that historically slides and people have been buried in in the past? Nope, no reason whatsoever then to probe. Especially with all of the tracks leading into and around the fracture area.

Four for four Bodhi. Batting 1.000, keep it up!

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Originally Posted by Bodhi Moon

If you do it on a double black with an ATR scale of 1/2 then you are taking an even greater risk!

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Inbounds skiers in Tahoe aren't generally educated to awareness level about avalanches, much less on the obscure avalanche terrain risk scale. I actually had to google it and the only working links I found (2 out of 8):
1. This TGR thread
2. A 1996 ISSW article that indicates you are confused and have your scale numbers backwards.

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where do i get that it was a small one, by knowing my shit... avys are rated on a scale of R1 through R5, with a small avy being an R2 (Could bury, injure, or kill a person, approximate path length 330ft, 100 m). And no I didn't just take a one weekend avy one course but three college semesters of a 4 unit avy class

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You also have the R scale and the D scale confused. For the record, D2 (which you called an R2) avalanches are responsible for more fatal avalanhces than any other D number. You might want to refresh your avalanche knowledge before you spew further about how educated you are.

A D2 or above slide in an open-to-the-skiing-public area is a clear indication of possible burial and a search by beacon, dogs, and RECCO. Probing is what you do until those assets are available. With the report of a missing person, a burial should have been assumed until the area was cleared.

If a report of an avalanche and a missing person doesn't prompt a full and immediate response, then skiing with a partner would be of no use unless both were skiing with full avalanche safety kits inbounds.

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Originally Posted by Bodhi Moon

He was buried in a easily accessible rescue area where rescue would of been quick and simple, I myself have saved people buried in the same area! If I hadn't been there then they would of also died!

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You have made two rather outrageous claims in this thread now: 1. That you have had multiple friends die at DSR in inbounds avalanches 2. You have saved multiple people buried inbounds avalanches at DSR in the area this man was buried, an area you claim is too dangerous to ski alone but that ski patrol had no reason to search after a slide.

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Because of the small size of the avy the chances of him dying from trauma injuries were small, if he would of been dug out within 30 minutes survival rates go up to over 50%.

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1. Trauma is more terrain dependent than anything. I'd say the consequences of that terrain include a high chance of trauma.
2. The survival rate for 30 minutes is probably less than 50%, it depends what dataset you examine. For example: http://www.earnyourturns.com/wp-cont...urves_2011.gif
3. In either case, it is a good reason for patrol to have responded with urgency since time is of the essence.

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According to the reports "The sheriff's department received a call about the missing man at noon Monday, nearly three hours after the avalanche." why did it take him 3 hours to get reported missing? because he was riding alone...

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According to the news interviews with the man's friend, which could be wrong, they reported it several times to ski patrol. After 3 hours, the friends and/or ski patrol called the sheriff.

http://www.kcra.com/image/view/-/178...412-LB-jpg.jpg

I'm not familiar with DSR, but from the pictures it looks to me like the individual didn't have to ski the line to be in the start zone. He could have been traversing to another area.

The point Bodhi is making is valid: it really is the individual's responsibility to ensure their own safety. Not unlike choosing to wear a helmet or not. But that, unfortunately for Bodhi, is not the issue of this whole discussion.

It was an inbounds slide. End of conversation. The ski hill/patrol completely shit the bed.

Bodhi, paragraphs are your friend.

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Originally Posted by Bodhi Moon

I would like to clarify a couple things about this accident. For those of you that don't know this terrain is directly in the front of the mountain, in order to access it you have to ride a chairlift that travels directly over these cliffs and start zones, it is labeled double black and is obviously not only a starting zone but a starting zone in an avalanche terrain risk scale of 1 or 2 (one being the most dangerous signifying that if an avy occurs there will be death/serious consequences), common sense dictates that you not only have the skills to ride it but that also, and most important in this situation you don't ride it alone or with no one knowing that you were at least headed to palisades, especially with early season conditions and a high avy danger. It is a common slide area at the resort that often causes small avalanches (which this was)and considering the visibility of the area (visible from the lodge, bar, chairlifts, bunny hill, etc) just because they had a slide there would not indicate a need for immediate search and rescue because a)you shouldn't be riding it alone and b) the likely hood of getting caught and buried there and not being seen by someone/anyone is minuscule to the extreme degree (I still have a hard time believing that no one saw it). For those of you claiming that it should be closed, take up another sport like table tennis! Palisades at dsr is obviously double black terrain and if you decide to ride it you are obviously risking life and limb to do so, that is the nature of our sport. I myself broke my neck, shoulder, and had 9 stitches through my helmet last year on these same cliffs, my other friend broke his back a week before... but when i was laying there unconscious and bleeding my friends were trying to get to me, i was not alone! that is the nature of what we do, blaming dsr for it is absurd... if your going to lay the blame, lay it where it belongs, with the victim via personal responsibility and the victims friends for letting him ride double black terrain alone, It's not like people of a lower skill set cant take an alternate and easier route to the bottom of these cliffs (top of the bunny hill) and watch there friends go big... If you ride stuff like this alone (like I regularly do) then accept responsibility for your actions and the possible consequences! and don't blame the resort for your own mistakes...

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Bodhi Moon - This maybe one of dumbest things I have read in this discussion. You are so wrong on so many different levels.

1. This was not a small slide (Crown was over 3ft and at least 60-80 ft wide). In addition, this is a terrain trap with the possiblity of a deep burial.

2. Whenever a slide occurs inbounds at at a ski resort, it is the Patrols responsiblity and duty to treat this as if somebody has been burried even if nothing has been reported. This is done specifically because of this type of scenario.
3. Laying blame on the victim? Wow I can't even believe you stated this. Are you actually saying the resort made no mistakes in this situation. Really, are you that fucking stupid? No control work, opening known avalanche terrain after 40-50 inches of new snow, not responding to an avalanche on open terrain that is clearly visible, turning down aid initially from Sugarbowl, no probe lines, and the list continues.
4. You actually stated that is shouldn't have been closed and we should take up another sport like table tennis. Let me make this cleas since you have no idea how to run a ski resort. If you are not going to do control work on terrain that has clear avalanche danger and severe consquences, it should be CLOSED.


I am sure the Forest Service, Lawyers, and Insurance companies will have a completly different opinon about who is at fault and who made the mistakes. I still can't believe a ski resort in this day and age operates like this although maybe not for long.

Judging by the photo above i had judged this to be a "normal" slide for this area (which I know better then most), for which a full ski patrol response would of been uncalled for, after talking with friends at the scene and seeing more detailed photos I have been corrected... and I apologize. This was not a normal slide for the area and the photo above does not do it any justice. The actual enormity of the slide!!!, and it's path of travel actually onto the bunny hill should of absolutely called for an extreme search effort immediately! The person who triggered the slide was seen to ride out and did not know that anyone else had been caught in it. He then went to check his entrance lines and only noticed his own 3 entry lines, no one elses, rocker had been on one of his tracks and hence there wasn't a separate entrance line. Also, unfortunately, another individual was wearing the same jacket and was mistakenly identified as rocker, and being ok. The one witness who did see rocker get caught didn't come forward until 2 hours later, by changing his story. Donners 3 ski patrol and management did not follow proper protocols in the situation, in my updated opinion they were negligent in their response, but in their credit they had no indication that anyone had been buried for way too long. but that doesn't excuse the proper response for a slide of this caliber. Actually grooming the bunny hill first. But, if rocker had been riding with someone, the chances of rescue would of been greatly increased! That was my main point the whole time, if you ride alone, take some responsibility.

To answer your questions, this was the first friend who died at dsr from an avy, my other friend died in a tree well, for which riding alone was a major contributing factor, same with my friend at sugar bowl last year. I have never dug someone out from a slide in that area but from someone jumping off the cliffs, penciling in and having their sluff bury them. This was my 5th friend i have lost on the hill, and in every case but one, they were alone. The one exception was my friend at alpine who left his helmet in his locker and ended up needing it. A "normal" slide in this area is the same thing you would see at lots of your normal cornice locations on many mountains, and never have I seen patrol make a big deal over a small slide like I had originally taken this to be. I was wrong because of the enormity of the slide for the terrain and my mistaken assumptions that this was a "normal" event(something that I myself have set off numerous times), which it was not. Once again I apologize for offending anyone, that was not my intention, which was to remind us all... to ride with friends instead of alone especially when avy conditions are extreme.

and at the very least, be wearing a beacon, and know how to use it! Please!

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Originally Posted by Bodhi Moon

and at the very least, be wearing a beacon, and know how to use it! Please!

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GODDAMIT YOU ARE A FUCKING RETARD!

Will this and the Alpine Meadows and Squaw avalanches be investigated by SAC or will other bodies be investigating--since these were inbounds--or both, and will there be public reports?

Bodhi: every other ski area in tahoe that experiences in bounds slides organizes a probe line every time it happens. It's very standard. No one is blaming DSR for starting a slide. DSR did not follow an incredibly common (pretty much universal) practice. That's fucked up.

How you could not know that is beyond me.

even fucking South America patrols (who do not even know what beacons are) will form a probe line immediately for an in-bounds avalanche

Not doing one in America is pretty much criminally negligent

anybody can tell from the photo that that is a decent slide. I have no idea how they could have seen it in person and not said "Oh Shitballs, we've gotta do something."

and with regards to everything about guessing whether or not anyone is in there all i can say is the very fucking obvious

ASSUMPTION IS THE MOTHER OF ALL FUCK-UPS!

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Originally Posted by sfotex

Around here if anything slides inbounds in an open area it's treated as a live burial until proven otherwise. Avy dogs, probe lines, etc. Why would you want to operate any other way? Best case you save a life, worst case you have a great training opportunity..

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Same here (MT) same everywhere in the west.

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Originally Posted by Bodhi Moon

If you do it on a double black with an ATR scale of 1/2 then you are taking an even greater risk! Where do I get the double black? From all the signs clearly posted above dsr palisades and the clear nature of the terrain. !

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I have come out of a long, self-imposed retirement on TGR, to tell you that you are a moron. Go away.