Kids Beacon

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

Just because it hasn't been said yet.

Recovers Extremely Cold Corpses Occasionally

Dale cuts and pastes his lame sales pitch every time recco gets mentioned.

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...ighlight=recco

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Nice Job,

I love how you bash a guy who has given more back to the Skiing, Avalanche, and Rescue communities then you could possibly fathom. Since Dale was upfront about his affiliation, I would like to know yours since it appears you have some sort of agenda.

Think about what your posting and how you come off sounding like a complete idiot. Let me guess, you are against seatbelts, motorcycle helmets, airbags, train crossing signs, stop lights, andy any other device that could possibly save lives. Keep on spewing your crap, but at least stop hiding behind a computer and share your agenda.

^ My concerns about recco system are covered in linked thread.

No affiliation.

Your second paragraph does not represent my arguments.

RECCO is to avalanche victims as the rhythm method is to contraception. It should not be your first (or only) line of defense and in terms of this particular thread it should not recommended for use by children.

and are you really putting recco in the same league of safety benefit as

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seatbelts, motorcycle helmets, airbags, train crossing signs, stop lights

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?

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Originally Posted by snodale

Au contraire. So if I read your comment correctly, you're giving up since your buddy has been buried for more than 15-30 minutes.

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if i'm sitting on my thumbs relying on recco, yes

but, instead of that, i'm going to rely on my beacon and actual proximity to the slide and be already searching in the time it takes for someone other than me to go alert authorities with a recco tracking device who then have to arrive on scene before any miraculous pinging of the reflector can happen.

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Originally Posted by snodale

Statistics tell that at 30 minutes 50% survive. Then drops to about 1 in 3 by 35 minutes. Even at 2 hours about 1 in 5 victims survive (Brugger et al., 2001). After 2 hours survival drops again, but a few very lucky victims do survive for hours under the snow. In the US in the last 10 years we have even had a couple of people survive burials of 23 and 24 hours.

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instead of "au contraire", you basically reinforced my point, if with positive spin


maybe in europe it works, where systems are in place to effect quick rescues by authorities, but here in the US, the reflector is not helpful to individual ski party members, who are the ones who can make a rescue happen in the critical minutes after the slide

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

^ My concerns about recco system are covered in linked thread.

No affiliation.

Your second paragraph does not represent my arguments.

RECCO is to avalanche victims as the rhythm method is to contraception. It should not be your first (or only) line of defense and in terms of this particular thread it should not recommended for use by children.

and are you really putting recco in the same league of safety benefit as ?

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Why don't you re-read my posts on the topic as well as Dale's post. In both posts, we said RECCO is not a replacement for a beacon. There is no reason for a Kid or anyone for that matter not to wear both a beacon and RECCO. And yes I did compare it to something that has the possiblity of saving lives. For you not to advocate the RECCO reflectors is irresponsible. The majority of resort skiers do not ski with a beacon. RECCO makes up for that by inserting reflectors into clothing and some equipment and then supplies the resorts (free of charge I might add) a RECCO Unit to be used in the unfortunate instance where a slide occurs. How could this possible be a bad thing? Why would you even think about attacking Dale and RECCO for this endevor?

Read the linked thread.

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

Read the linked thread.

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And your point?

I hope Dale continues to post here, despite the criticisms on account of . . . well, whatever it was.

Back to the substance, the 1981-98 Swiss data in the cited article show the typical rather dramatic drop from 18 to 35 minutes (usually rounded off to between 15 and 30), but then a rather surprisingly decent chance of survival for a couple hours (on account of small air pockets):

“The augmented data for persons buried in open areas (black
curve) show a precipitous drop in calculated survival
probability from 91% at 18 min to 34% at 35 min
(acute asphyxiation of victims without an air pocket), a
flattening of the curve between 35 and 90 min (‘latent
phase’ for victims with an air pocket), followed by a
second drop to only 7% at 130 min (death of victims
with a ‘closed’ air pocket from slow asphyxia and
hypothermia), confirming the previously-proposed survival
probability curve [7].” [graph shows big drop from 120 to 130]

Regarding RECCO:
“Correct, RECCO has not yet had a live recovery in North America, but we do have live rescues in Europe, typically 1 to 4 a season. The reason is simple. We're a Swedish company and have been in Europe longer, so we have more people in Europe equipped with reflectors.”
– Seems like two other factors are that: 1) much more “backcountry” skiing in Europe is very close to ski resorts and other human infrastructure, with helicopters frequently used and highly trained mtn rescue personnel; and, 2) RECCO tags are no longer sold separately in the U.S., so they’re more of a fashion item than anything else.
(In some amusing timing, yesterday evening while attending a Board mtg as Treasurer for a local place of worship, the woman sitting next to me had a ski jacket with the outline of a RECCO tag visible, along with a lift ticket from a local resort. I suppose had we started talking about skiing, then perhaps I would have learned she often treks up to our regional avalanche terrain, and goes touring out West too, but somehow I doubt it...)

great thread. thanks for the feedback I appreciate all of it.

this week backcountry.com quietly snuck a price drop on all their beacons so I pulled the trigger on four T2s. They are due today with a saw shovels probes and avalungs all around. We'll start practicing right away on dryland due to complete lack of snow

It is hard to pull that much trigger for insurance purposes. The new snow app are reporting our target area is looking soft so it should come in handy. First week of april we plan to hit monarch wolf creek CB taos & telluride. could be a good ski vacation w/great adventures in the SkiRV

Lots of sidecountry & hike to terrain on that itinerary. if we see it we wont be able to help ourselves. now we'll have all the stuff to go with some basic smarts and tons of internet learning from all the mistakes. #1 seems to be dont be dumb. #2 is terrain selection. #1B is keep studying all the output from the avalanche centers like CAIC

I looked up Avy1 courses in that area however they don't coincide with our schedule and they required skins & AT gear. Does anyone know how I can get a family of 4 to basically have a private Avy1 for bootpacking alpiners on our schedule?

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Originally Posted by anemic

I looked up Avy1 courses in that area however they don't coincide with our schedule and they required skins & AT gear. Does anyone know how I can get a family of 4 to basically have a private Avy1 for bootpacking alpiners on our schedule?

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The backcountry travel that should be a major component of any L1 course really isn't feasible w/o backcountry travel gear.
But just contact one of these providers or instructors:
http://aiare.info/providers_list.php
http://aiare.info/instructors_list.php
... and see if some sort of training could be tailored for your family's needs.

aha. thanks as always Jonathan S. I am not looking for "Certs" as much as I am seeking knowledge and solid fundamentals - for the team. The lists are great start.

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Originally Posted by anemic

I looked up Avy1 courses in that area however they don't coincide with our schedule and they required skins & AT gear. Does anyone know how I can get a family of 4 to basically have a private Avy1 for bootpacking alpiners on our schedule?

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I've done my share of bootpacking, and before I got into AT years ago, that's all I did. Skinning, though, just allows for so much more energy for the descent, as you haven't used up all your reserves bootpacking through conditions that would have been so easy skinning through. The reason the avi courses focus upon skinning and AT in general is becaus that's the core of their customer's desires....so they focus on who pays the majority of their bills.

But I realize that outfitting a family of four for AT might be cost prohibitive seeing how quickly kids outgrow equipment (does Fritschi and others even MAKE AT gear for children, anybody know??). At least in Ak, most avi course instructors that I've dealt with are so stoked about teaching and spreading the word about avi safety, they very well might think about a private avi field course for a family. They may work out a simple hourly rate for you.

I don't know your region, but you can try the American Avalanche Association link below:

http://www.americanavalancheassociation.org

They don't list a phone number on their website, but I'm sure you can bing it. They will probably be able to email a list of available avi instructors for your region.

You might want to consider getting together with another family for a possible private course to spread the course costs around.

Good luck and have fun out there!

EDIT: Once you get that family course done, and depending on your kid's ages, you might want to look into snowshoeing on approach. Granted that's not as good as an alternative as skinning...and presents it's own problems of having to wear sorels for footwear and needing to have the ski boots in the pack and skis strapped to pack on ascent and then stomping out and tamping down a place to put your ski boots back on at the top..and stuff your sorel back in pack and strap the snowshoes to the pack !!), but it IS do-able, just not recommended for kids under ten. We did that as a family starting at 10 and 12. MUCH easier if the family snowboards, as only a slight snowshoe binding mod is needed to accept most softboots.

I've actually loved snowshoeing since I was a young kid, and you might decide that snowshoeing as a family is enough and dispatch with the skis. You'd be AMAZED at the depth of snow you can travel through with a decent pair of snowshoes, and have tons of fun to boot. Because it's closer to walking, kids take a shine to it once they get used to it.

http://kidssnowshoes.net/wp-content/...nowshoes-1.bmp

Snowshoe Magazine:

http://www.snowshoemag.com/

As you can tell, I'm a snowshoeing nut.

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Originally Posted by Jonathan S.

The backcountry travel that should be a major component of any L1 course really isn't feasible w/o backcountry travel gear.
But just contact one of these providers or instructors:
http://aiare.info/providers_list.php
http://aiare.info/instructors_list.php
... and see if some sort of training could be tailored for your family's needs.

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Jonathan, I simply cannot let that statement stand without a comment. Certainly there is some truth lurking beneath the comment, but as written, it is misleadingly false. A course can be effective in most circumstances, regardless of backcountry travel modality or location. I can think of several western resorts where you can do an effective backcountry lesson just by riding the lift and taking a short walk. A family of four can also cover a lot of ground on snowshoes, which do count as backcountry travel gear. How one travels is a personal choice, and is often not a very important component of the backcountry experience.

BTW, there is also a lot of justification for not taking a group on a long ski tour for a backcountry day. No matter the quality of the instruction, if the student is not ready or capable of receiving the lesson, the value is lost. E.g., I'd rather have students who are energetic, warm, and attentive than a group of tired, sweaty, and cold skinners. I'm not trying to shoot holes in the typical L1 pedagogy, just trying to say that effective alternatives exist to the usual and customary ways.

Anemic, I'd second Jonathan's recommendation. Find a guide who is also an avalanche instructor. Explain to him/her what you're looking for and he or she should be able to accommodate you and your family.

jeff

I had (mis?)interpeted the “bootpacking” reference as without even the benefit of snowshoes, in which case backcountry travel is pretty much impossible in most kinds of avalanche terrain. Granted many ski areas (even our very own Whiteface) can get you into real avalanche terrain, but I see a very big difference between traveling up to avalanche terrain vs actually traveling within and among avalanche terrain. And that difference comes down in large part to decision making, which AIARE has wisely emphasized.
The draft AIARE Introduction to Avalanche Safety ( http://avtraining.org/Avalanche-Trai...-Overview.html ) course curriculum I saw essentially emphasized “terrain viewing areas” for the field sessions of a sub-L1 course. I think that curriculum has fallen by the way side (I can’t even remember discussing it at our AIARE IRC this past fall), but it does illustrate by way of contrast a core element of a L1 course.
Back to snowshoes, sure, backcountry travel is possible, but it’s going to be a lot less travel than on modern ski touring gear, and the students are going to be a lot more tired. (Although at least not borderline hypothermic like a certain group of students practicing rescue in a cold rain at treeline last year...) However, I think the bottomline here is that the family should get in touch with a qualified avy educator, and I’m sure they’ll be able to receive valuable training that is appropriately tailored to the fitness, skills, travel mode, and available terrain.

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Originally Posted by Jonathan S.

I had (mis?)interpeted the “bootpacking” reference as without even the benefit of snowshoes, in which case backcountry travel is pretty much impossible in most kinds of avalanche terrain. .

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No real argument there. I'm not sure what his reference to bootpacking really was. I mean bootpacking from the top of an upper chair to whatever off-piste point is one thing...usually on an already defined stomp trail. I've done lots of that. Even modified a pair of crampons so that they fit my regular size 13 big downhill boots (pretty shitty, but worked to a point). But bootpacking UP a route from a trailhead...NO CHANCE! Too many drifts and deep snow fields. It would be a great recipe for a frost-bite slog. So I'm thinking he was just referring to bootpacking some stomp trail from a chair to sidecountry. But that sidecountry can still pose avi danger (just look at Alyeska!!), so I can see his desire for avi education.

Problem he might have is that some accredited avi instructors might not want to sign off on a private family course due to insurance hang-ups. Might not want to feel responsible outside the auspices of his association. Any Avi instructors know?

As to snowshoeing: Yes, I think skinning is much less problematic...as you stay in your boots. They have silly little plastic snowshoes that are supposed to work easily with regular ski-boots...but their surface area is pitiful, not to mention ski-boots are pretty pitiful for snowshoeing anyway. Even my Scarpas suck for that compared to some good Sorels. But for boarders, snowshoes are a decent choice with just a slight binding adjustment to take the slightly taller softboots (taller at toes, that is). Sherpas work well for this as they have built-in snowshoe crampons that work. For those boarders like myself who haven't yet kicked in for a sweet splitboard...a pair of Sherpas are totally do-able. It's also amazing how well Sherpas actually dig into crust...something regular snowshoes like Vermont Tubbs bearpaws suck at.

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Originally Posted by Pinner

Little kids ace modern beacons pretty much immediately. Devices are ingrained in their dna. They just watch the gizmo and go straight to the target. They don't freak out like we do, because they don't fully grasp the consequences and stakes of a burial. But they shouldn't have to, they're just kids. Which is why they must be protected from avalanches. A beacon won't do that. What you need is a avalanche detector. PM Rontele.

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this is exactly my thoughts on kids n tech. the beacon is so only 1 of numerous tools you must concern your mind with.
get touring gear before snoshoes, keep your ski gear on your feet not your back.
teach your kids proper and safe uphill travel
enjoy the downhill safely in a responsible manner

i travel in avalanche terrain with my young family safe as can be expected.
bobbyf

all excellent inputs! I am so grateful for you sharing your wisdom and experience with my family!

Bootpacking reference is yes, from the top of chairs, "hike-to" terrain, etc.

An experienced mountain traveler can see the range of risks in a scene; she sees convexities / rollovers, open unanchored areas ready to go, rocks protruding (a hot spot, frosty) a concavity, a cornice far above and she instinctively measures the risk of each feature. I want my family to develop this skill set together. I want us to learn snow science together. I want my kids to dig a snowpit with me, saw out a Rutschblock and jump on it, judge the results correctly and learn to make their own choices. When it's crunch time I want them to switch to search mode & go into action because they practiced that. I want them to look at a slope and say, "No way Dad, we looked CAIC this morning and it said NW above treeline is Red today. It sure is pretty though. Let's hold out for a southerly exposure"

They already love their beacons and playing with angles on the theodolite app, the Utah avalanche center youtube videos are instructive and the usfs avy page is like an interactive Bruce Tremper book club meeting so they are absorbing the material there...

We will develop sound fundamentals in somewhat skier packed terrain and then possibly we'll consider skins and trekkers or AT gear - one day in the future beyond the current horizon. The thing is this type of investment that can be used by us a week or two a year is kind of tough to swallow. Meanwhile sidecountry & hike-to is a reality for sure! Although I have run some casual calcs. If you are doing true alpine touring, you arent buying four lift tickets! That begins to pay for the AT gear!

I emailed the wolf creek avalanche school and I have not received a response in a week. I spoke with Monarch today (which is our first stop & would work much better anyway) and they said that their $55/head Mirkwood tour suits our needs (and $55/head sounds darn fine to me!). They are available to answer any questions as long as we want. They said to see the skischool desk on arrival, AM or PM, they can run the program for us anytime. It sounds wonderfully casual and probably well suited for us. The website says to email the patrol, so I did that as a redundancy. A Mirkwood tour may be exactly what we are looking for. I want us to be able to develop skills beyond the usual American in-bounds mindset of "If it's open it's safe and if it's beyond the rope it's likely deadly."

The only possible hitch is that they want you to be an "8 of 10" skier, full expert no question & a min age of 13. Well, the kids are honestly probably 6 of 10 possibly 7. However when I took them to the tightest steepest trees I could find all over Vail & BC, they kept asking to get back in there when I skied a few "runs" with them! So, I wouldn't hesitate to bring them down something steep, deep & treed & they would thrive, however I would feel pretty bad if we held back a group of HD Hero chargers who expected to be lapping heli-skimovie style...because we would take a lot more time than "8 of 10" adult experts. I would feel like the guy with 20 items in the 10 item express checkout lane. So perhaps, a private Mirkwood affair would be the thing. We'll see what they say.

thanks again and continue to share your thoughts and feedback it's really fun to learn from you.

My 12 yr old daughter is a backcountry skier. She wears a BCA Tracker and knows how to use it. However, she is NOT an integral part of the companion rescue system, and it will be some time before she is. It's not that she's not a pretty capable kid, but it's just that I'm not going to place that much responsibility on her. Yet.

While my daughter loves risky activities (she's a superb rock climber, has several technical mountaineering peaks, etc) it's up to me to make the decisions that mitigate the risk and keep her safe. So, we only b-c ski certain types of terrain, in certain conditions, and so on.

However, we also spend most her ski time inside a resort. Mostly due to the sheer amount of vertical that she can ski in a day. It's really helped her with increasing her skill level.

In followup to Wolf Creek Avy school's response, it was an email hiccup. An immediate response was attempted. IT was good to know that they are indeed interested in working with us.

I just got my kids (ages 8 and 10) the latest Tracker.

I have nothing more important. I'm not really interested in saving money in this regard.

If they're going into avie terrain with me, I want them to be equipped and know how to use their stuff, including their shovels and probes.

So we practice hide and seek with xceivers. They love it. I bury my xceiver in a parking lot in snow and they dig it out.

No disrespect intended, but give the angle some thought.

Four Trackers2 are in the house. Couldn't agree w/you more Buster.

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

I just got my kids (ages 8 and 10) the latest Tracker.

I have nothing more important. I'm not really interested in saving money in this regard.

If they're going into avie terrain with me, I want them to be equipped and know how to use their stuff, including their shovels and probes.

So we practice hide and seek with xceivers. They love it. I bury my xceiver in a parking lot in snow and they dig it out.

No disrespect intended, but give the angle some thought.

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buster i know another 8 yr. old that would love to play xcvr hidenseek in the parking lot.
bobby

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Originally Posted by flowing alpy

buster i know another 8 yr. old that would love to play xcvr hidenseek in the parking lot.
bobby

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Gee, you sure have an advanced vocabulary.

;-).

If we come up there this weekend, I'll fire a flare o'er the Alpenchronic's bow.