Going for a ride in an avalanche; would you rather have a helmet or an avalung?

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Originally Posted by stalefish3169

Though it's kind of unpleasant to think about, if you're going for a ride and smack your dome hard enough to the point where it's life threatening, you're probably gonna have some sort of spinal trauma too which is often game over quickly.

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Don't agree at all. There was an interesting video a year ago or so showing a non helmeted dummy head being dropped on a flat side of an anvil and a helmeted head. The non-helmeted drop had the same force on the brain from 8 inches as the helmeted head had from 8 feet. Needless to say dropping your head onto an anvil from 8 feet without a helmet would result in major hospital time if not worse.

Finally from first hand experience in one of my first comps at Crystal many years ago I crashed over a staircase cliff band. Tumbled down it. One hit was literally straight onto the top of my head on rock. Helmet exploded. Super surprised my neck didn't break. The force was luckily just perfectly straight. Without a helmet that fall would have put me in the ground. With a helmet I walked away.

Helmet always for this user while skiing no matter what. Avalung when sled skiing or touring. Don't wear it when on the resort or in the sidecountry. Looking to get an avy bag this year after being in a big slide last year.

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Originally Posted by splat

How 'bout an airbag v. avalung question to keep things in perspective?

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well, price is certainly a pertinent difference. also, the fact that the avalung is often a stand-alone piece of gear whereas getting an airbag dictates your choice of pack and comes with other technical considerations.

the airbag attempts to decrease the likelihood of burial while the avalung betters your odds of survival if you are buried. as has been stated, both is the obvious answer.

as a matter of whether to get an avalung or not. i can't really see the not side. it's low tech, affordable, unobtrusive and it directly addresses the primary cause of death when a victim is buried. the avalung and helmet are similar in most of those respects.

that being said i'm looking forward to demoing some of the airbag packs this season.

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Originally Posted by covert

as a matter of whether to get an avalung or not. i can't really see the not side. it's low tech, affordable, unobtrusive and it directly addresses the primary cause of death when a victim is buried. the avalung and helmet are similar in most of those respects.

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not trying to start anything negative here (believe it or not;)

the only downside to helmets, avalung, airbags is these things simply may put you in a situation where you may not end up in the 1st place without the extra confidence/comfort of them.

i've seen people cross suspect slopes on "scary" days with the damn avalung mouthpiece in thier mouths "just in case". if you feel the need to do that, should you really be crossing the slope in the 1st place? airbags? "hmm, wonder if this slope could go or not, i feel pretty good about it, but kinda maybe not, but we dug a pit and we have our airbags. let's go for it!" helmets? well, to each their own, but i'd rather ski in a way where i let the snow/terrain dictate my speed/style and keep the option of falling out of the equation. never a need to fall if yer skiing respectfully and mindfully in the BC. "oh, but with a helmet i can ski the trees faster and if my head hits a branch at least i have my helmet on!" lol!

after my big ride this year, the last thing that went through my head was, "oh, time for an avalung and an airbag"

my thought was, ok, here's where i went wrong, a was definitely a bit too complacent in a very familiar area, time to sharpen up and scale it back a bit on the scary days.

just my .02

rog

One buys you some time (no question a good idea) but the other reduces the chance of burial in the first place, theoretically.

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Originally Posted by icelanticskier

the only downside to helmets, avalung, airbags is these things simply may put you in a situation where you may not end up in the 1st place without the extra confidence/comfort of them.

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the same argument could be made against skiing with a beacon/shovel/probe/partner.

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Originally Posted by covert

the same argument could be made against skiing with a beacon/shovel/probe/partner.

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which is why i tour solo more often than not on higher danger days. however, a beacon/probe/shovel have come in handy when recovering the dead. they make for a shorter day fer sure. and i'd hate to imagine trying to dig a pit with a helmet, avalung, or airbag:)

rog

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Originally Posted by pshutah

One buys you some time (no question a good idea) but the other reduces the chance of burial in the first place, theoretically.

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hmm, buying more time to ponder potential doom, no thanx. make it quick please.

rog

Don't get me wrong. In a perfect world I guess I would consider an airbag as one more piece to the puzzle in addition to shovel, beacon, probe and maybe avalung. Not instead of one or all. And none are a substitute for your brain. Anything that can add a layer of safety in case things go bad doesn't sound like a bad choice.

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Originally Posted by pshutah

Don't get me wrong. In a perfect world I guess I would consider an airbag as one more piece to the puzzle in addition to shovel, beacon, probe and maybe avalung. Not instead of one or all. And none are a substitute for your brain. Anything that can add a layer of safety in case things go bad doesn't sound like a bad choice.

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well put. the tough part for me is extras that add that layer of safety, or "just in case". "just in case" just invites problems, imo. just like digging a pit. once you dig a pit, your decision to ski a particular slope has been 95% made. and then it's, "do i feel lucky?"

rog

icelanticskier I respect your reasoning, but also think its fundamentally wrong. Never once have I crossed a slope and said oh it's ok because my avalung is in and my helmet is on. It isn't just in case and it should never be for a backcountry skier, but the variables and the unknown element are too hard to ignore.

For instance I nor anyone should ski trees faster with a helmet than they do without one. I'd ski exactly the same without a helmet. I have never once crashed into a tree, but that doesn't mean it won't happen at some point. Perhaps my binding breaks, or there is a tree root under the snow that creates the crash, or a rock. The point is shit happens and I want to be as safe as possible for when shit does. Thinking that shit won't happen is negligent. If that extra safety gear is raising your risk tolerance and affecting your judgement that is negligent as well.

The best and the worst in the world crash. The most experienced and the least in avy terrain get caught.
To each their own.

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Originally Posted by icelanticskier

the only downside to helmets, avalung, airbags is these things simply may put you in a situation where you may not end up in the 1st place without the extra confidence/comfort of them.

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Originally Posted by covert

the same argument could be made against skiing with a beacon/shovel/probe/partner.

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And the argument could be made as well for inbounds slopes that slide. Avalanches are not reserved for touring OB, Rog.
If you've never had an inbounds slide take you or a partner for a ride/burial, you haven't skied out west on a big year.

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Originally Posted by splat

Avalanches are not reserved for touring OB, Rog.

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no, really? :biggrin:

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If you've never had an inbounds slide take you or a partner for a ride/burial, you haven't skied out west on a big year.

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well, i haven't, but i hardly spent any time inbounds while living out west. i preferred touring on storm days in the wasatch as it insured empty trailhead parking lots and slopes. trailbreaking was always a herculean enedeavor, but always well worth it.

rog

I wonder if he knows who covert is?

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Originally Posted by Atrain505

icelanticskier I respect your reasoning, but also think its fundamentally wrong.

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It's what a segment of the population do and it's how they act. Similar to the gongshow of "knowledgeable" BC users at popular spots

hey, bottom line is to stay alive out there. do it however you like. you wanna spend dough on the "latest and greatest"? whatever blows yer hair back.

rog

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Originally Posted by Atrain505

Don't agree at all. There was an interesting video a year ago or so showing a non helmeted dummy head being dropped on a flat side of an anvil and a helmeted head. The non-helmeted drop had the same force on the brain from 8 inches as the helmeted head had from 8 feet. Needless to say dropping your head onto an anvil from 8 feet without a helmet would result in major hospital time if not worse.

Finally from first hand experience in one of my first comps at Crystal many years ago I crashed over a staircase cliff band. Tumbled down it. One hit was literally straight onto the top of my head on rock. Helmet exploded. Super surprised my neck didn't break. The force was luckily just perfectly straight. Without a helmet that fall would have put me in the ground. With a helmet I walked away.

Helmet always for this user while skiing no matter what. Avalung when sled skiing or touring. Don't wear it when on the resort or in the sidecountry. Looking to get an avy bag this year after being in a big slide last year.

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I think you're over analyzing my statement. Just to clarify, I wasn't insinuating that helmets are worthless at all. I was just stating that avalanches have a ton of energy and can break people very easily, with or without a helmet. That being said, I always wear a helmet.

people that exercise poor judgement will find ways to do so even if they're butt naked in a field of poppies.

perhaps avalungs and airbags are not appropriate for all users but they certainly have their place. i would put helmets in a category closer to seatbelts.

Icelantic that's exactly why stopped using my avalanche cord. Damn thing made me way too confident.

To answer the original question - It depends. Why do I have to choose? But if I do I would say it would depend on the situation.

Deep snow//deep pack/fresh snow/mid winter/open terrain/non-exposed, then maybe avalung.

Shallow pack/rocky areas/old hard snow/spring summer/exposed technical terrain, then maybe helmet.


But it's kind of like asking "what's better to eat with, a fork or a spoon?". Just saying.

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Originally Posted by ncognico

Icelantic that's exactly why stopped using my avalanche cord. Damn thing made me way too confident.

To answer the original question - It depends. Why do I have to choose? But if I do I would say it would depend on the situation.

Deep snow//deep pack/fresh snow/mid winter/open terrain/non-exposed, then maybe avalung.

Shallow pack/rocky areas/old hard snow/spring summer/exposed technical terrain, then maybe helmet.


But it's kind of like asking "what's better to eat with, a fork or a spoon?". Just saying.

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Making a choice forces intellectual curiosity over the consequences. Saying both is lazy, requires no thought.

Why not carry every piece of gear you can that up the odds of survival in the BC? Avalanches can happen on slopes that look safe or you think are safe. I do think if you want to spend the money do it on training yourself, gear is not a substitute to snowpack knowledge and BC experience.

I do see how having the gear can tempt you to drop down that sketchy slope.

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Originally Posted by Socialist

If you had to choose between a helmet or a avalung before getting caught in an avalanche, which would give you the best chance of survival?

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So many factors involved......it's not really a definitive "either/or" scenario.

1) what kind of terrain and at what altitude?

2) what kind of snowpack?

The type of pack that causes the most suffocations is often the pack that is least likely to cause acute head trauma....and vice versa.

Now say you're wearing a helmet and get unlucky enough to get hit by a large-debris avalanche....the larger the debris, the more air-pockets are likely to be present...but that won't really be a help, because you'll probably not be able to dig yourself out from under large debris...so you'll freeze to death or get crushed. Not fun.

Now say you've got no helmet...but are wearing an avalung in that same above scenario....avalungs don't help if your unconscious.

Either way, you're fucked.

I don't put a whole lot of emphasis on an avalung, but if it makes you feelo better....bring it....but you'll never be sure if the damn thing will function as needed when the shit hits the fan.

A helmet, on the other hand, is nearly fuck-proof....as long as it stays on your head...and comes in handy, safety-wise, in SO many different mountain endeavors....like kicking steps on a ice traverse where your chances of slipping are high and rocks are below.

Plus you can use it as a make-shift snow shovel and get less frost-bite on your hands when your digging out your buddies.

For general mountain versatility, I'd favor a decent climbing helmet ANYDAY over an avalung.

But like someone else said: The primary safety gear are YOUR BUDDIES. Always ski/ride with a buddy. Shit....I should be the one to say that !!, since I'm often doing the 'he-man' solo mountain thing!

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Originally Posted by Alaskan Rover

But like someone else said: The primary safety gear are YOUR BUDDIES. Always ski/ride with a buddy. Shit....I should be the one to say that !!, since I'm often doing the 'he-man' solo mountain thing!

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buddies are good and all, but i'll bet a whole lot more or most avalanche incidences occur when folks are with a buddy(s). all of the incidences i know of, from friends accidents, and mine personally have always involved a touring partner. no problems ever when solo as i think being solo tends to make you make even more conservative choices in avalanche terrain. higher danger days, i choose solo fer sure. not pounding my chest here, just my personal preferance.

rog

Interesting question. I'd like to see statistics on avy fatalities for Trauma vs. Asphyxiation. Obviously wearing a helmet is helpful in many situations, however I find myself going without more and more often in the backcountry. If it is going to be a peak decent, then the helmet comes along, otherwise hat and shades are often the outfit- goggles only in dumping conditions.

I know I should wear one, and used to, but they're sort of a hassle in the pack, which is why I'm surprised no foldable D30 product has been developed- yeah they have beanies, but packable helmet would be a nice option, even if it was less protection than a full hard shell.

I use a avalung pack, but may I remind other users- the biggest slide I've ever been in I didn't so much as think about it being there. You need to practice putting it in place to breath out of...

If i had to choose, i'd take helmet... full face for hopefully an air pocket...

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Originally Posted by camlax

If i had to choose, i'd take helmet... full face for hopefully an air pocket...

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Snow gets shoved everywhere in a slide. People have reported it being forced down their throats when they tried to breath. The only full face helmet which might give you a pocket is a full screen snowmobile helmet.