Utah Search and Rescue Bill

Fire department charges for ambulance rides in Truckee. Ask me how I know.
There are certainly inconsistencies. If we want SAR to be free, how about ambulance rides, how about all medical care. We dyon't charge for the FD and PD.
The analogy that makes sense is CG rescue, at least for recreational boating. I would have no problem charging for that. The analogy with a lost kid is absurd. And the writer doesn't know how FEMA works. But if we want to use that analogy--I pay for flood insurance. If you live in a flood zone you should have it. You don't get a new house if you don't have insurance. In Europe it's routine for people to be charged and for people to have rescue insurance. Amyone who's skied in Europe knows it's cheap.

As far as the argument that paying will keep people from calling for help, I would counter that knowing you can get a free rescue makes people take more chances. Which is more dangerous? I suspect in most cases the cost doesn't enter into the decision. People call fast because they're hurting and frightened. When people don't it's because they value their self reliance.

Society ultimately decides who gets free service (fire, police) and who doesn't (occasionally a hiker, sker, climber). What ever the public consensus is I'm fine with. What I have a problem with is the attitude.

Rescued in Canada and no charges
It was a close to death one and I’m forever grateful to BC SAR

No charges but I’d have paid

Volunteered with Davis SAR and they are full volunteer

I’ve heard many people in trails say they can always call SAR and seem very unprepared

One thing they trained me on was they want to go home to their families and we should real be in need and try to avoid rescue but if they are needed they answer the call Much respect to SAR


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Originally Posted by old goat

What a bunch of entitled bullshit. It's nice that most rescues are free but it's a gift, not a right. And when they put you in an ambulance when they get you to a road you better believe that ambulance will charge you. While a lot of SAR is volunteer (and a lot isn't) helicopters most definitely are not free. If you get hurt in a car accident, whether it's your fault or not you will pay. Why does being in the backcountry give you free rescue privileges.

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Agreed - And I don't believe this goes far enough -
I am appalled and disgusted by the idea that adults would request "Rescue" for getting lost ;
the reliance on electronics for location and navigation is after my time ;
those who step off-trail better be able to find there way back to their transportation ( trailhead or wherever ).

I did not see it above, but consider the diversion of resources, when SAR is deployed, and a real emergency occurs --

it is my understanding, in Europe, we would be billed for our rescue, And Insurance is available ;

the idea that one should be excused for giving a few bucks for Gas. . .

And yes, the volunteers - Bless them - do not charge for their time or Work, but if they are using ... - owned equipment, Somebody's got to pay to replace that equipment.

I will close where I started -
adults better not "get lost" when we choose to step off-trail -
( Dog) Damn. !

(( we have had two boys lost in the wilderness U.p. here in the last four years - one was rescued, and one was ( Recovered) ;

The Effort that the community put in to (F)finding those boys was Awe-inspiring to me ))

Know the Risk(s),
Be Responsible.

( "Take-offs are optional ;
landings are Mandatory. " )

Good luck. and peace,

my friends


skiJ

I wouldn't decide whether or not to charrge based on the perceived stupidity or risk of the victim's behavior. Everyone will draw the line in a different place. Charge everyone or charge no one.

I can’t edit my post for some reason above. But I want to make clear that BC SAR groups are staffed by volunteers under non-profit societies. When I said we get paid, I mean the society gets a (small) reimbursement from the local/regional govt.
As volunteers, we get access to amazing training, discounts from some outdoor suppliers, and great satisfaction for contributing tour our group and the community at large.

Interesting in that out of country visitors that require our services, but might be transferred to an ambulance are very aware of the cost of the ambulance, and sometimes will refuse that service once they get back to the parking lot - free emergency health services only applies to citizens in that regard. I assume, but do not know, that this applies to the helicopter ride (free), but the air ambulance (which rarely can transport in backcountry locations) is also a paid service for non- residents. But then if you need an air ambulance then I suppose the cost is secondary. No charge if the coast guard cormorant is needed for a backcountry call (only one call here in my experience - sadly for what became a deceased mountaineer).

the article specifies that the rescuees were fined for ignoring closures rather than billed for their rescues. important distinction. however, in a case like that where there is no legitimate reason for rescue, i say fine them for misuse of emergency services, too. same goes for spot or inreach devices that are activated accidentally or without cause.

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Originally Posted by old goat

I wouldn't decide whether or not to charrge based on the perceived stupidity or risk of the victim's behavior. Everyone will draw the line in a different place. Charge everyone or charge no one.

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100% agree, though i do fall in the camp of no charge. i view sar just the same as a pd and/or fd response. if someone needs rescue, they need rescue. however, if someone doesn't need rescue and their call results in a response, bill their ass.

pretty-much too close to home for me, guys -

an important distinction >> urban or non-urban environment -
in the city, FD, EMTs, Paramedics, CoastGuard are staffed government agencies ;
The quote cited above asks, ' Why should the backcuntry be any different ? '

But it is Not a rhetorical question >> the "backcountry" IS different -
in a Not-urban setting, emergency services from Fire through emergency medical care is likely staffed by volunteers, or at-least the monetary compensation does not come close to providing a "living wage" ;

Those who want 'the backcountry' to have urban emergency services needs to convince Everyone else they need to equip and staff those agencies ;

overtly stupid stuff ?
we turned it into an industry ;
it became the media and marketing of "Extreme sports" ;

an effort to be self-sufficient -
I would argue is a contradiction in terms ;
one that IS self-sufficient does not need to 'make an effort' -

accidents do happen, and people do get injured - accidentally.

And
I would urge caution about trying to tie SAR to "medical care" - it could or may be part of emergency services ( see Fire - And consider the differences between urban and Not-urban ) , And
If you want to apply models of "medical care" to backcountry SAR, I will just give that a "no" - absolutely Not.

Many of the 'questions' posed aren't really as rhetorical as presented -
Almost Nothing is Free - it's just a matter of Who pays, and What is being paid for
( - and Who determines whether a Search or Rescue was ' necessary' ).

I am Sorry for my rant - I apologize.


skiJ

I'm just glad that Bill made it home safely.

https://youtu.be/a6XbkMDlOIE?si=kSv9IF7zAWFwg2T3

Speaking of Coast Guard rescue, this is pretty interesting.

The Surfmen are impressive but the ones who are completely crazy brave are the rescue swimmers. The portrayal in A Perfect Storm I believe is pretty accurate. (The irony is that in the book it turns out the sailboat whose crew was rescued by the swimmer and the CG eventually washed up on a Caribbean island--intact.)

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Originally Posted by whyturn

Rescued in Canada and no charges
It was a close to death one and I’m forever grateful to BC SAR

No charges but I’d have paid

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Yeah its covered under a Provincial Emergency Program or PEP, we self rescued super quick so SAR wasnt really involved but someone showed up at the heli base at 2 hrs and I think they gave us a PEP number or SFT to pickup the chopper bill

the province are pretty generous and I know of an instance where they picked up the chopper bill long after the incident like a year later

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Originally Posted by pfluffenmeister

I'm just glad that Bill made it home safely.

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Word.

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Originally Posted by old goat

The Surfmen are impressive but the ones who are completely crazy brave are the rescue swimmers. The portrayal in A Perfect Storm I believe is pretty accurate. (The irony is that in the book it turns out the sailboat whose crew was rescued by the swimmer and the CG eventually washed up on a Caribbean island--intact.)

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Years ago during a trip along the North Carolina coast I stopped by a few lighthouses and became aware of the rescue swimmers (the original surfmen). There’s a good write up of the history here...

https://www.nps.gov/caha/learn/histo...ng-service.htm

Another good read...

https://www.mycg.uscg.mil/News/Artic...fesavers-of-pe

The local FD is volunteer.

It is an active question how far up the mountain bike trails should we go when someone is injured. The trails are both in and out of our response zone but, with PEP authorization, we can go out of our area (whereby the prov. government becomes responsible for our insurance and costs).

However, we are paid for by the Town taxpayers while in zone. The patient does not pay when we respond to an injured cyclist on the street, should the same tax-paying cyclist pay if they managed to make it a few km down the trail?

We are usually tasked out with SAR, but have a different response model meaning we are on scene first but they have better extraction equipment. I think it is a good working relationship. It would be weird for them to bill the patient and us not to. I also think that areas, like ours, that market themselves to outdoor enthusiasts should not completely abandon those visitors when something goes wrong. But I am a socialist.

since we have brought the coast guard into this.
https://coastguardnews.com/coast-gua...-near-cordova/
I was never in danger of physical harm. I could of got on one of the good samaritan vessels. They did save me a shit load of money if my uninsured boat would of sank. The rescue swimmer was a great guy. he was pumped to actual do what he trained to do. The pilot filmed the rescue and they sent the footage to the local news. The swimmer said it is good press for them and helps with funding. I was never billed only had to follow up with the coast guard that I made repairs. Took the fish I had left at the time on board out to the coast guard base and passed it out.

This heli pilot has some serious skills and ballz.

https://www.ksl.com/article/51164966...iver-to-safety
https://img.ksl.com/slc/3020/302073/...r=ksl/fullsize

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

This heli pilot has some serious skills and ballz.

https://www.ksl.com/article/51164966...iver-to-safety
https://img.ksl.com/slc/3020/302073/...r=ksl/fullsize

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"Video of the rescue shows the helicopter clipping trees on its way out of the narrow space. Huntsman said the pilot landed again at a higher spot to check the blades."

:eek:

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Originally Posted by skaredshtles

"Video of the rescue shows the helicopter clipping trees on its way out of the narrow space. Huntsman said the pilot landed again at a higher spot to check the blades."

:eek:

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FAFO.

Bet s/he doesn’t do that again.

Important part is Bill is ok, right?

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Originally Posted by riser4

Important part is Bill is ok, right?

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Amen.

I talked to a guy who was involved in a rescue in the Winds. He stood with one foot on a ledge and one foot on the skid while the pilot kept the helicopter tilted away enough to keep the rotors from hitting. Doesn't seem possible but I know nothing about helicopters.

^^^ Not really possible if the ledge is on a more or less vertical cliff face If the ‘ledge’ was on a fairly sloped face, then maybe…

I’ve spent a fair amount of time working with helicopters.

"To tilt forward and back (pitch) or sideways (roll) requires that the controls alter the angle of attack of the main rotor blades cyclically during rotation, creating differing amounts of lift at different points in the cycle. To increase or decrease overall lift requires that the controls alter the angle of attack for all blades collectively by equal amounts at the same time, resulting in ascent, descent, acceleration and deceleration."

Altering the AOA cyclically as the blades turn allows the thrust to point a different direction from the rotor's axis as well as producing torque about, say, the helicopter's longitudinal axis so that it can be hovered in a slightly rolled position.

Quadcopters don't.

That pict ^^ looks a little too close for me but a good pilot makes the call eh

I seen lots of pilot weigh shit before a flight but Tom the guy who came and got us off the side of a mtn was the base commander at Canadian ( buddy had like 10,000 hrs) so he knew what shit weighed, I seen him pick up/ drop all kinds of loads that he couldn't hover with and if he was too heavy at the drop end, + fuel burned he would have been really too heavy at the pickup end

an amazing pilot and apparently a damn good defenceman