08/09 Legend Pro rider 184: Review

call it ego if you like, but it had nothing to do with it

its a simple matter of me just trying to help people understand that softer isnt always worse
for people to claim that if any ski is made softer, it is made worse, is a grossly incorrect generalization
all im saying is that making a ski softer, while helping to widen public appeal and market base, is also to introduce some compromise into the ski, so it is also much more versatile and demanding in certain situations. this is a give and take game and you can never make everyone happy.

Having skied an im103, and simultaneously loved and hated it more than any ski ive ever been on, the prospect of a slightly softened and larger shoveled version has me excited....
That ski is a lot of ski, even in the 183 version, and in my personal opinion, it borders on being dangerous to ski in tight trees.
anyway, hopefully you get where im coming from..

if you havent noticed, most of my postings here are to genuinely help out and call it as i see it
im here to also listen, but when i keep reading somewhat ignorant and antiquated thought, i tend to speak up.

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Originally Posted by altasnowbirdripper

blah blah blah

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you, i have nothing more to say to you.

the ignore list always gets bigger in summer

Like I said - little man - you are a very scrawny waisted little man

to let you in on a little tip - you're the one who looks and sounds like the moron here...

Your doing me the favor by not saying anything more to me - like it would matter anyway - MORON

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Originally Posted by pechelman

call it ego if you like, but it had nothing to do with it

its a simple matter of me just trying to help people understand that softer isnt always worse
for people to claim that if any ski is made softer, it is made worse, is a grossly incorrect generalization
all im saying is that making a ski softer, while helping to widen public appeal and market base, is also to introduce some compromise into the ski, so it is also much more versatile and demanding in certain situations. this is a give and take game and you can never make everyone happy.

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My point has nothing to do with whether or not you're right. It has to do with your approach to making your points. Just because you're right doesn't mean you're not sometimes a dick, in other words. This isn't the first thread in which you've come across with a huge ego in the way you present your views - "I'm right and if you disagree with me you're an idiot."

I would happen to agree that softer is not always worse, as I prefer softer skis than most here. In relation to the skis in question, I am not familiar with them, nor have I skied back-to-back skis with soft tips vs. ones without. But, just because a design feature is not worse for you, or even for the masses, does not mean it's not worse for someone else. This is a personal preference thing, and just because someone disagrees does not necessarily make them a moron. I do often find your insight helpful, and realize you have good intentions, but you do seem to be somewhat close-minded to other viewpoints.

Strength in a person includes the ability to look internally with a critical eye.
Just my opinion based off nothing more than your interactions on this silly website.

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Originally Posted by adrenalated

My point has nothing to do with whether or not you're right. It has to do with your approach to making your points. Just because you're right doesn't mean you're not sometimes a dick, in other words. This isn't the first thread in which you've come across with a huge ego in the way you present your views - "I'm right and if you disagree with me you're an idiot."

I would happen to agree that softer is not always worse, as I prefer softer skis than most here. In relation to the skis in question, I am not familiar with them, nor have I skied back-to-back skis with soft tips vs. ones without. But, just because a design feature is not worse for you, or even for the masses, does not mean it's not worse for someone else. This is a personal preference thing, and just because someone disagrees does not necessarily make them a moron. I do often find your insight helpful, and realize you have good intentions, but you do seem to be somewhat close-minded to other viewpoints.

Strength in a person includes the ability to look internally with a critical eye.
Just my opinion based off nothing more than your interactions on this silly website.

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He's (pechelman) nothing more than a little man in a narrow mind

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Originally Posted by adrenalated

My point has nothing to do with whether or not you're right. It has to do with your approach to making your points. Just because you're right doesn't mean you're not sometimes a dick, in other words. This isn't the first thread in which you've come across with a huge ego in the way you present your views - "I'm right and if you disagree with me you're an idiot."

I would happen to agree that softer is not always worse, as I prefer softer skis than most here. In relation to the skis in question, I am not familiar with them, nor have I skied back-to-back skis with soft tips vs. ones without. But, just because a design feature is not worse for you, or even for the masses, does not mean it's not worse for someone else. This is a personal preference thing, and just because someone disagrees does not necessarily make them a moron. I do often find your insight helpful, and realize you have good intentions, but you do seem to be somewhat close-minded to other viewpoints.

Strength in a person includes the ability to look internally with a critical eye.
Just my opinion based off nothing more than your interactions on this silly website.

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ill be the first to admit im a stubborn SOB
so thanks for calling me out on it here in this thread
maybe i a was a bit over asserting in how i made my points
so i apologize for that
its also key to remember this is the internet, and maybe what i typed and said in my head maybe didnt have as much close-minded-asshole-stubborn-know-it-all inflection as when you read it.

admittedly though, this is also not the first time ive publicly disagreed with the person i now have on ignore. ill also add that, for whatever reason, he annoys me because I feel he gives lots of people the wrong impression and information, and does so with some authority i dont feel is credible or warranted. I have not spoken up when he did this a multitude of times in the past few months since his first set of posts, so lets call it pent up aggression or something ;)

ie, there is a history here that i think you may be overlooking and interpreting this solely as egoism and me being an asshole

i do appreciate your ability to express yourself to me in an honest manner
its nice to see not everything turns into a flame war....even during summer

So now that piece has been restored to the universe, does the new LP suck or not? ;)

sounds like its a bit early to say one way or the other definitively, but right now it seems like 3 out of every 4 says there is a good chance its not a ski of the same heritage. (take that to mean whatever you want)

ive always wanted my 186s to have less tail width (or a wider waist and tip) and a tad softer tip with the mid-core extending a bit (say 3-5cm) further forward. id also ask to reduce the kick on the tail, increase the effective edge there, and move the mount point back 1cm. oh yea, and make them a true 186.

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Originally Posted by pechelman

its also key to remember this is the internet, and maybe what i typed and said in my head maybe didnt have as much close-minded-asshole-stubborn-know-it-all inflection as when you read it.

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So true. I think everyone falls victim to this one from time to time.

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Originally Posted by pechelman

ie, there is a history here that i think you may be overlooking and interpreting this solely as egoism and me being an asshole

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Did not know the history, thanks. Hard to keep track of all the interpersonal drama ;)

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Originally Posted by pechelman

i do appreciate your ability to express yourself to me in an honest manner
its nice to see not everything turns into a flame war....even during summer

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Word. This signal to noise ratio this summer actually seems like it's been pretty good.... for summertime.

Duly noted. I would like to say though that any information that I have given or passed on has been from others experience in here, of which I have always used a link to the post or quoted, or has come from my own experience or others. I by no means claim to be an expert or have all the answers. What gear I like or works for me may or may not for the next guy. If I gave info that seemed un-credible then I guess to that I don’t know what to say other than it came from in here or from experience of my own or others. If I have inadvertently offended anyone or came across as a smart ass know it all with no experience, I’ll take this as a public opportunity to say sorry – didn’t mean to in any way.

As for the 09 LP - "for me" I think the soft tips will be a hindrance. But I won’t really know until I actually ski my pair. From what experience I have with skis that have softer tips - they would work for me as a soft snow/pow quiver ski. For a 180-185ish all mountain all conditions ski - give me a ski like the 07 or 08 186 LP. But that's just me. I just received my 09 LP 184's a few weeks ago and just from comparing them in had I am certain they will be too soft for me. As far as pechelmans moronic, ill informed and completely biased opinions and accusations go - Credibility is something I hold to highest esteem and you have no merit let alone any place to pass judgment on me - I have been skiing for 30+ years, currently hold a level II EMT Cert, have patrolled, instructed, raced, did the mogul thing, maintain a volunteer status patrol & volunteer canyon rescue, hold advanced rock climbing certs, shit, I don’t need to say any more and certainly don’t need to answer to the likes of him, Pechelman and any one like him can kiss my ass (and right in the middle) until he or anyone like him has walked a 1000 miles in my shoes or any one else’s who has been down similar roads. I know I have never out rightly bashed someone’s credibility around here - maybe questioned a few opinions when I thought there was little to no experience to back some hasty remark but that’s it. Pechelman you are way off base with your accusations and as I have said, nothing more than a LITTLE MAN with a loud mouth! The only pent up anger I have is for incompetent little people who blatantly throw shit then go run and hide like little irrelevant little people do – feel pretty confident behind your monitor don’t you..

Through 35 posts it looks like only Jerr and I have actually skied the 08/09 184 LP.

He didn't like them and I did.

Alot of conjecture that soft tips ruin the ski (but improve Head im103's), that they are emasculated, etc.

Anyone else been on them?

IMHO a little softer 190LP could be the shit. I could also be talking out of my ass on this though. I know this a review of the 184 but has anyone been on the 190? if so thoughts? I know in a earlier post someone stated they talked to someone who heard from some dude that talked to a dude that demoed them for a run, said they were to soft now, but I am looking for first hand info. Any one......Bueller....??

I skied the 08/09 LP at Snowbasin last year at the demo, I have skied the 06/07 too. I enjoyed the new version, wider, just a little softer up front.

We are not talking about a Seth, or Maiden or Salomon softness.

It is pretty stout, but skis a little rounder, less "boardy"- for me at 160 lbs. it was fine.

FWIW I ski at JHMR 120 days a year, everyday ski this year was Stockli TT-188, and 184 DP pro.

I got the 186 Scot Schmidt (131-101-121) in March and that is more the old LP feel. You need to step on it all the time.

Also skied the XXL and liked it a lot. Conditions were pretty prime though, 20 something new, super cold up top so you liked just about every fat ski.

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Originally Posted by Bandit Man

So now that piece has been restored to the universe, does the new LP suck or not? ;)

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I skied it again today. No, it doesn't suck is the short answer but...

They opened the back chutes for the first time. I skied old light pow/no crust, and hard pack & skied-in hard pack featured terrain. There wasn't anything that really needed to be busted through, which really is this skis weak point. Launching off the top or simply avoiding any heavy feature worked fine. And I really enjoyed it.

I found if I kept a really balanced position over the ski then all was ok. If I was traveling at speed, whacking out aggressive turns and then weighted the front of the ski just a little to much, the ski would try to hook into a tight turn under me. I know this sounds like an obvious cause/effect but it really was over the handle bars type material. ALthough I'm definitely not saying these are noodles.

Basically I feel this ski is my new 05/06 gotama only a bit livelier and less happy for me to weight it's fore-body. By saying that I mean that it is easy to ski, about 100 under foot and performs pretty well. If you put dukes or your touring binding of choice on it, it would be a great one ski quiver.

Unfortunately, I have a nice little quiver and I bought this as a shortish sub 100 hard busting ski, which it definitely isn't. This ski and crud aren't friends, hence my disappointment. And at 78kg, I'm an average size operator.

As a post script I tried my new 07/08 xxl's today for the first time...wow! Even in heavily skied-in hard pack terrain I loved these (admittedly I was the guy going up the wall around moguls)! These skis seem so simple yet work soooo damn well. The relevance of this is - on a groomer - heading back to the lift I remember looking down at them thinking "If I could get this flex 10mm narrower I'd f@*$ing love it as an every day/hard pack ski!" And that thought was totally isolated from any negative 08/09 LP reflection. I'd forgotten them at this point.

Hopefully this addition gives a bit more clarity. Maybe I should have waited longer to provide a review, but there you go. Life's a learning machine.

P-man & AltaSBR - Chill out guys. I get what each of you are saying and I think each has a valid point (admittedly I skipped the last few posts). I bet if you skied together for a day and had a beer after you'd really enjoy each other's company. We are, after all, just talking about the characteristics of skis. Not world politics.

Interesting post and great feedback - not suprised that you love the XXL - the minute I stepped into mine 2 years ago they have been for the most part the ski I am on - they rule it! Good to hear about the 09 LP - I was hoping to do the same around here but the project I am deep in the middle of (w.o.r.k.) has me burning the midnight oil! As if the standard 40 hour work week isnt enough! I guess it wont be a bad thing then if the trade for a 08 LP 186 doesnt work out. Maye I was or am a bit hasty with my 09's... now I'm thinking I really need to get out on these! The Gotama you refered to - is that the black topshet with Buddha graphic and red writting?

PS: Oddly enough - a cold beer does sound so good right now - even at 6:50am!

PSS: supergaper - wanna unload any of your stocklis?? Sweet skis! (or trade for a 09 LP 184 ;) )

There have not been any 190cm 0809 Pro Riders in North America so far.

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Originally Posted by verbier61

unhappy with the 09 LP? try the new stockli stormrider DP plus

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Speaking of these, where can I get them? I want...