Universal health care.

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Originally Posted by mrw

Are you still under taxed?

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yes.

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Originally Posted by mrw

What exactly are you recieving for all of those taxes?

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A huge war-machine.

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Originally Posted by mrw

Quite a few people in the 18-30 year age group choose to go without coverage because characteristically, they are at low risk of serious illness.
The first step to fixing the health care crisis in this country is to force these folks into the system to spread the risk and lower payouts in ratio to the payer pool.

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Just wow. Do you even realize what you propose? Yep, it seems like you suggest a Universal health care, no? Only by doing it your way, you get to keep the great concept of allowing private health care companies the benefit of denying patients care, due to bullshit reasons, while reaping the rewards. And you are talking about universal health care as a corrupt system? Allowing companies to earn money by not giving care to patients must be the worst form of corruption.

Coming from a country where UHC is a fact and taken for granted, i believe the idea of the opposite - whatever you may call it - is utterly retarded. The notion that some people cannot afford heath care is madness in my eyes and every person has the right to be treated if injured or ill.

With this in mind, it is thus much better with a health care system that is not built on the concept that refusing care to patients means higher profits. It DOES however allow privatised hospitals. I am not here to write an essay though and i will leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by FFsup

The notion that some people cannot afford heath care is madness in my eyes and every person has the right to be treated if injured or ill.

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If health care is a right, when did it become a right?

mrw - can you share with us clear statistical proof of the superiority of the US for profit health care system over various national, single payer, socialized systems around the world.

Every study I have seen indicates the the States pays more per head for less coverage, both total and individual but has significantly lower results when the state of the nation's health is measured with widely accepted metrics.

It does sound that you have significant first hand experience of using other systems or maybe perhaps working within them. Again details please.

Otherwise we may start to suspect that your just spouting tired old fallacies.

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Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

If health care is a right, when did it become a right?

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The simple answer? although providing, rather than selling, care to the sick is something that goes back through all of human history.

How does Article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights tickle you?

Even an imbecile like Ronald Regan kind off liked it - "For people of good will around the world, that document is more than just words: It's a global testament of humanity, a standard by which any humble person on Earth can stand in judgment of any government on Earth."

The fact that it's not specifically your countries document is also the whole point, mostly.

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Originally Posted by mrw

Add up payroll taxes, real estate taxes, county taxes, state taxes, local taxes, sales taxes, fuel taxes, telecommunication taxes, capital gain taxes, estate taxes and then tell me you are under taxed.

Oh, while you are at it, take corporate taxes and add them in too because you really don't think they aren't passed on directly to the consumer do you?

Then lets take the dollar figure needed to collect and distribute those taxes to the various government entities and add that in because those costs are also passed along down the line.

Are you still under taxed? Don't forget the famous Social Security Tax.

What exactly are you recieving for all of those taxes?


What ever it is, don't you think you could provide for yourself at a much lower cost if all of that money was in your pocket?

This government does not trust you with the money you earn. Like a stern parent, they rip it from your pocket and put it to use as they see fit.

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Wait until you see what hapens to our tax rates when Hillary or Obama get into office. Hold onto your wallets folks!

This thread pukes ignorance. The American Health Care system provides the highest quality of care in the world and we pay for that.

The largest provider of health coverage behind CMS (medicare) is BCBS (directly and TPA), which is a non-profit organization, yet it is also the most expensive.

Privatized health care is a big part of the solution, not the problem. First think of the facilities. How many for profit/private hospitals serve the general public? None. Almost all hospitals are non-profit and public, exluding some single specialty/surgical hosipitals/surgery centers. Are you aware that the largest expense for our hospitals is administrative paper work! One of the reasons why our health care coverage is so expensive is that our public nonprofit hospitals hemorrage money b/c of poor management and primitive operational systems from a fiscal business standpoint. A solution to this is to localize and privatize healthcare. Allow the physicians to own and control the facilities of which health care is provided. Have them hire savy managers who have the knowledge to streamline an efficient mangement system from a business, patient flow and quality of care perspective. If the managers don't perform to the physicians expectations, the docs can fire them. Presently it is vice versa. Are you also aware that the 4th most common cause of death in our country is staff infection mainly do to unsterile ORs in our public non-profit facilities. In addition to the fatalities caused by infection, this also increases the cost of care on a per patient basis and it is underreported. If you go to a public non-profit hospital for an outpatient procedure you risk infection. In the privately/physician owned health care facility industry there 0% staff infection.

The insurance companies, whether private, commercial, medicare, HMO, self pay, etc... are not the reason why our health care system is so expensive.

In addition to the astronomical administrative cost, our system is strained from malpractice claims, indigents and illegal immigrant, economical decredentialing, and the overly bad habits of the American People.

It is completely ignorant if we think a simple "co-pay system" can solve these problems.

I feel that the following tweeks to our system will be a good start to lowering the cost of our health insurance: Tort Reform, physician owned for profit facilities, policy and procedure changes that focus on sterile environments (such as hand sanitizer stations placed in every door of a hospital), efficient managers who's jobs rely on performance, preventative medicine and educating the public on how to live a healthier lifestyle.

We need to take our health system away from the politicians, lobbyist, administrators and insurance companies, and return it to the physicians and patients, where it belongs.

This means privatized health care in a competitive environment of which reports every incident with full disclosure.

Again, America's healthcare is of the greatest quality. We can get an MRI in 30 minutes. Our technology and access to it is the best. We demand this! And at any cost we will make sure our loved ones and ourselves will have the best care available.

Nationalizing our health care system would be one of the single greatest mistakes we can make. This is a fact, Look at what Mitt Romney did to Mass. He will be the first to admit it, and I don't think he would make the same mistake twice. Also, socialized heathcare is simply unamerican and unconstitutional. Plus as an earlier poster stated, how can we trust a government that performed so poorly during national and international crisis, with our health. That scares the hell out of me.

My two cents.

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Originally Posted by mrw

This country is already bankrupt as a result of entitlements.

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:nonono2:

megadittos mrw!!

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Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

If health care is a right, when did it become a right?

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About the same time a few of those 18-30 year olds that mrw mentioned needed an emergency appendectomy which caused my health insurance premiums to go up.

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

mrw - can you share with us clear statistical proof of the superiority of the US for profit health care system over various national, single payer, socialized systems around the world.

Every study I have seen indicates the the States pays more per head for less coverage, both total and individual but has significantly lower results when the state of the nation's health is measured with widely accepted metrics.

It does sound that you have significant first hand experience of using other systems or maybe perhaps working within them. Again details please.

Otherwise we may start to suspect that your just spouting tired old fallacies.

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mrw has 30 years in the insurance industry. I am not by any means, a fan of the insurance/medical industry as it now exists however I am not a believer in anything government has to offer. It fails at all levels.

There is clear statistical proof to support any thing you care to dream up if you care to spend a few months digging for it. have fun and let me know how you make out. Spend a few weeks dealing with the associated crap necessary to flow paper work through a government bureaucracy and you will have a clear understanding of why National Health care is an oxymoron. I left that end of the business in an effort to maintain my sanity.

Tired old fallacies? I guess you are willing to risk your own health and that of your loved ones by giving all control of your medical needs to a government agency. Best of luck with that. Have you checked the teeth of the average Brit?

I have spent the last 5 years of my life freeing myself of any government entanglement. I moved to a state with no real estate tax and no sales tax. There are few if any entitlements provided and we pay for our own street lights, and trash pick up. Amazingly, all of that costs thousands less than i was paying for the same in another state. The same will be true of National Health care. Cheaper and better from the private sector.

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Originally Posted by Burrrr

In addition to the astronomical administrative cost, our system is strained from malpractice claims, indigents and illegal immigrant, economical decredentialing, and the overly bad habits of the American People.

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And there it is. Listen to Republicans and you find out that illegal immigration is at the root of all the problems in the US if not the world.

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Originally Posted by Grange

About the same time a few of those 18-30 year olds that mrw mentioned needed an emergency appendectomy which caused my health insurance premiums to go up.

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Or right around the same time someone with a raging case of TB is seated next to Meatpuppet on a little cross country jet ride.

Simple solution. We should waterboard people without health insurance or access to a free clinic to find out why. Drown em till they spill it.

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Originally Posted by mrw

I am not a believer in anything government has to offer. It fails at all levels.

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Don't you feel that's just a little bit hysterical?

All the anti-government types should stay away from our government. I happen to like driving on roads payed for with taxes that I seamlessly pay at the pump. It would be like if my atheist ass started telling religious folk how to run their churches. I'd downsize and privatize that shit in an instant, but I don't. Some people like church, and some people like government services (ie roads).

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Originally Posted by Grange

And there it is. Listen to Republicans and you find out that illegal immigration is at the root of all the problems in the US if not the world.

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Wow, just like the liberal media to take a point out of context and to spin it into political bullshit.

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Originally Posted by Burrrr

Wow, just like the liberal media to take a point out of context and to spin it into political bullshit.

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Is that all you got? The liberal media?? That tired old line ceased to be true in the 80's. Get with the times.

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Originally Posted by uglymoney

All the anti-government types should stay away from our government. I happen to like driving on roads payed for with taxes that I seamlessly pay at the pump. It would be like if my atheist ass started telling religious folk how to run their churches. I'd downsize and privatize that shit in an instant, but I don't. Some people like church, and some people like government services (ie roads).

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seamlessly?:D

Your fuel taxes are now going into the general fund forcing road repairs to compete with a zillion bullshit programs for funding. That funding that comes from the Feds to the State comes with strings attached. How else did you think we ended up having a 55 mph speed limit shoved down our throats?
States have to show compliance for speeding tickets and a host of regulations.

The same applies to funding from the department of education.Loaded with curriculum requirements to properly brainwash future voters.

The argument for for private health care is that you get treated quicker, get better treatment, and it's more efficient/cheaper than the slow and expensive poor quality of care you get from a national health care system. So far, I have yet to see any evidence that the American system stands up to any of those arguments. The number one reason for bankruptcy in America is due to a health care related crises.
What do you do when a loved one has a life threatening illness and the insurance company makes you jump through hoops and denise claims ad nasuem? What's that? You had a previous non-disclosed health condition? DENIED. And you thought you were "insured"? Silly us. The primary motive of the U.S. insurance plan is profit. That is accomplished in two main ways. #1, minimizing costs by denying claims or reducing medical tests. #2 by increasing your premiums and co-pays, drug Rx's etc.

Remember health care isn't a right, it's a privledge.

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Originally Posted by FFsup

A huge war-machine.

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This country spends 3% to 4% of its GDP on military spending depending on how you calculate. It's essentially the lowest it has been since before WWII.

For reference, France spends 2.6%.

The military is the one thing the Federal government is definitely supposed to be spending money on.

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Originally Posted by Burrrr

Wow, just like the liberal media to take a point out of context and to spin it into political bullshit.

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I'm not in the media so that talking point doesn't make any sense. How did I take your statement out of context? Put it in context. The topic is UHC vs private healthcare and you blame the problem in part on illegal immigration. This is pure O'Reilly.

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Originally Posted by MassLiberal

Is that all you got? The liberal media?? That tired old line ceased to be true in the 80's. Get with the times.

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MassLiberal & Grange, perhaps you should read my entire post. I did not single out illegal immigrants as the root to all of the worlds problems, far from it. But it is a fact that our ERs are clogged with illegals whom have a cold or the flu instead of taking the appropriate channels, b/c they have learned that it is law in the states that health care cannot be denied at a public institution. Hence, limting the access of well insured patients whom are seriously sick or injured. If they were citizens they would have access to federally funded programs such as medicade. They would then have access to primary care physicians. Illegals are taking advantage of our health care system, receiving free health care at our expense not only financially but directly effecting our quality of care.

I stated very specifically that this was one of many problems with our current system.

If your statement wasn't a sad attempt to bash conservatives, then please enlighten me.

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

The simple answer? although providing, rather than selling, care to the sick is something that goes back through all of human history.

How does Article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights tickle you?

Even an imbecile like Ronald Regan kind off liked it - "For people of good will around the world, that document is more than just words: It's a global testament of humanity, a standard by which any humble person on Earth can stand in judgment of any government on Earth."

The fact that it's not specifically your countries document is also the whole point, mostly.

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"Article 19.

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers."

So by your logic the government should buy me space in a nationally distributed newspaper? Or maybe time on a the radio, or TV. After all, according to the UDHR I have a right to these things. Since I can't afford them, the government should provide them for me, right?

"Article 17.

(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others."

According to your logic the government should provide me with property?

For the sake of argument, why should the government pay for healthcare when it doesn't pay for many of the other "rights" enumerated in the UDHR?

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

Don't you feel that's just a little bit hysterical?

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Since you are a newcomer to our country you have a unique perspective on our government. Can you name one of our large, tax funded, federal programs that is efficient, effective, and well managed?

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Originally Posted by pheenster

In my experience, if you get seriously ill in Canada you usually get taken care of pretty quickly. If, however, you need elective surgery (hip replacement, stuff like that) be prepared to rot on a waiting list for what can be a very long time.

Way too complicated a topic to deal with in a short post (or even a long one), but there are IMO pros and cons to both systems. The US health system is used to scare children at night up here, but our own system is not without its issues. You're never going to be refused insurance here because you're a "bad risk" but on the other hand a guy I know waited almost two years for elective surgery.

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Under the Canadian system, my mother in law waited over 2 yrs before getting a knee replacement that was considered elective. During that time she ended up favoring her good knee so much that its now completely fucked too. The doctor's only solution is to prescribe her pain killers while she waits for the other knee replacement.

I live in Canada because my wife is a Canadian citizen and despite what Michael Moore says in Sicko, that doesn't get you free health care up here. Immigrants (regardless of spousal sponsorship) are denied Provincial health care while waiting for permanent resident visas to process. Fair enough I thought. I don't typically go to the doctor, so I bought the private travel insurance policy Immigration Canada suggests to cover for any accidents.

I had the misfortune of breaking my neck during this time and spent 10 hrs in the ER waiting room before I was admitted because we had to pay a bond upfront to show proof of payment as the private insurance we had purchased was not accepted. The hospital administrator strongly urged my wife to have me sent to WA because if it got too expensive and I had no proof of payment, I would be asked to leave the hospital. We had to put the whole thing on a credit card and were never reimbursed by the private insurance because I was considered a "resident" of Canada thereby nullifying the insurance policy immigration Canada urges all applicants to get.

Despite what most Canadians will argue to death, the system here has serious limitations mostly due to lack of doctors and nurses who head south for better pay. The ER is clogged with people looking for someone to blow their nose for them or homeless drug addicts looking for a place to crash while they come down. The waiting lists for people with serious ailments that are deemed "elective" leave people no other choice than to take pain killers.

Canada should allow private health insurance for those who want it. Whats the harm?

Goddammit MP, stop pissing me off by continuously purposefully misinterpreting the obvious.

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"Article 17.

(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others."

According to your logic the government should provide me with property?

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Of course not. They should not deny your ability to own, as in Soviet-style socialism.

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"Article 19.

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers."

So by your logic the government should buy me space in a nationally distributed newspaper? Or maybe time on a the radio, or TV. After all, according to the UDHR I have a right to these things. Since I can't afford them, the government should provide them for me, right?

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No, but they also shouldn't confiscate your printer if you decided to put out your own leaflets, arrest you for speaking your mind on a call-in show on the radio, etc. Freedom of the Press isn't predicated on owning the outlet.

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Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

Can you name one of our large, tax funded, federal programs that is efficient, effective, and well managed?

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Can you name one Employer of 15k+ who is?

You know all this. You're not an idiot. Why do you pick these bullshit little nits?

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Originally Posted by philippeR

I don't know where you found the 70/30 % figure.

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I meant to say 30% of immigrants, but that is probably a low number. Unemployment is over 8%, and that is pretty close to the number of foreign born citizens (google fact).

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The ride is indeed free for the poors, immigrants or not (It makes sense, if you ask me, to have those able to pay, to pay...). Now, I'd challenge the assumption that the poor do not pay taxes. They do, each time they buy something. And the rich immingrants pay the same taxes as rich french nationals...

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What does it look like for the future though? From what I know, many of the Muslim immigrants are riding the wave, having a lot of children, and not participating in the French "culture". They can't become acclimated to French culture, mostly due to their religious beliefs. Am I wrong here? This is mostly coming from my brother in-law, and his mostly middle class French family. They are scientists and teachers in Paris.

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I'm not sure our taxes are so outragous though. I believe our income taxes are on par, maybe lower, on average, than in the US. And many things are free, or way cheaper, than on the states. Like healthcare or education.
You may favor a different philosophy, less socialized, but I'm unconvinced that our system is ultimately more expensive than yours when you're in my position (middle aged, father of 2).

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Where do gas prices figure in? You guys pay for your services in much more ways than we do. My brother in-law used to have to pay 13 months of rent, just cause he could afford it.

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I agree the system needs revamping. Mostly by charging more to the higher incomes (that would be me :eek:)... Today, rates are the same to everyone. And by streamlining the procedures, administration of the system.

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The rates are the same for everyone, except the poor. The benefits are not the same for everyone. Not everyone can go to the best schools in France. Not everyone can get the best care. It has become a bit of a caste system, as I see it. Maybe Sarkozy will change some of that?

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Originally Posted by Burrrr

MassLiberal & Grange, perhaps you should read my entire post. I did not single out illegal immigrants as the root to all of the worlds problems, far from it. But it is a fact that our ERs are clogged with illegals whom have a cold or the flu instead of taking the appropriate channels, b/c they have learned that it is law in the states that health care cannot be denied at a public institution. Hence, limting the access of well insured patients whom are seriously sick or injured. If they were citizens they would have access to federally funded programs such as medicade. They would then have access to primary care physicians. Illegals are taking advantage of our health care system, receiving free health care at our expense not only financially but directly effecting our quality of care.

I stated very specifically that this was one of many problems with our current system.

If your statement wasn't a sad attempt to bash conservatives, then please enlighten me.

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It wasn't a sad attempt. It was pretty good. Just look at your statements.

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But it is a fact that our ERs are clogged with illegals

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By using the word clogged your leading the reader to believe ER's have more non-insured patients that are illegal immigrants than US citizens.

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Illegals are taking advantage of our health care system

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You single out illegal immigrants, when plenty of US citizens do the same damn thing.

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If they were citizens they would have access to federally funded programs such as medicade. They would then have access to primary care physicians.

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Again you're leading the reader to believe all US citizens without health insurance are covered under Medicade and primary care physicians. If that's the case then we already have Universal Health Care. Why do I pay for my health insurance when I could just use Medicade. Also please inform my insurance company when they raise my rates again.

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Illegals are taking advantage of our health care system, receiving free health care at our expense not only financially but directly effecting our quality of care.

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How are they directly affecting our quality of care?

You're the one that chose to bring up illegal immigration, not me. Watch any of the Republican debates and when answering most questions on problems in the US at least one Republican will bring up illegal immigration. Listen to O'Reilly talk about the guy who shot and killed two men robbing his neighbor's house. He focuses on the robbers legal status.
It really doesn't matter what the issue is, illegal immigrants alway deserve some if not all of the blame. This is a permanent talking point for Republicans.

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Originally Posted by Tippster

Goddammit MP, stop pissing me off by continuously purposefully misinterpreting the obvious.

You know all this. You're not an idiot. Why do you pick these bullshit little nits?

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Heh, sorry dude. Maybe I should just be more blunt. Things that seem obvious to me obviously aren't, errrr, obvious to others.

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Of course not. They should not deny your ability to own, as in Soviet-style socialism.

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Exactly! So, since the federal government is in no way denying American citizens access to health care, health care as a right is a non-issue in the debate over whether or not to have a national health care system.

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No, but they also shouldn't confiscate your printer if you decided to put out your own leaflets, arrest you for speaking your mind on a call-in show on the radio, etc. Freedom of the Press isn't predicated on owning the foutlet.

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Exactly right. The inability to pay for access to the press in no way infringes on our right to free speech. In the same way(assuming that medical care is a right, which it isn't, but that is a different argument), the inability to pay for access to parts of the medical community in no way infringes on our right to medical care. So no government intervention is justified on the basis of protecting our rights. So again, health care as a right becomes a non-issue in this discussion.

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Can you name one Employer of 15k+ who is?

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In comparison to the federal government? Any and all of them. A private company couldn't survive in a competitive environment if it were run like the federal government.