15 g/day per that article.
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15 g/day per that article.
Thanks, I guess I scanned too quickly!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
I tried collagen twice but the ones I took, these: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 and these: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
both upset my delicate flower of a system so I bailed before very long. Maybe I should try again and stick to it this time.
Dan if you decide to take collagen please post up which one you decide to take.
This is what the wife has:
Attachment 433228
Collagen comes in a few varieties. I've been taking this joint-focused type II collagen supplement for the last few years.
https://www.costco.com/kirkland-sign...100293064.html
I just grab the brands that Costco has when they're on sale. Otherwise it's a bit spendy. Capsules are really expensive on a g/$ basis so I definitely avoid those. Good old-fashioned gelatin is also legit and less expensive, though it's better for cooking. As a straight supplement hydrolyzed collagen is easier to deal with since it dissolves in cold liquids and doesn't solidify when cooled.
Since this has garnered some interest, here's a good literature review from Rhonda Patrick on this subject: https://www.foundmyfitness.com/topics/collagen
I've also been using glycine powder as a sweetener for a few years. There's a dearth of research on isolated glycine compared to collagen, but a lot of the benefits of collagen are attributed to glycine and there's fairly solid research showing that 1) glycine is important for a lot more than just collagen synthesis, and 2) most people probably don't get enough. This paper posits that we can synthesize about 3 g/day from serine and get another 1.5-3 g/day from diet, which leaves us about 10 g short of the amount needed for all metabolic uses: https://www.academia.edu/33366715/A_...agen_synthesis
Glycine is really sweet, about the same sweetness as glucose and about 70% as sweet as sucrose. It dissolves pretty easily and makes a very convenient beverage sweetener that is probably good for you. It's also relatively cheap at around $0.20/serving compared to >$1/serving for most collagen powders.
Collagen is similar to turmeric. There is some benefit but largely overstated and much larger benefit could be seen from simple lifestyle changes instead. Too many folks majoring in the minors when it comes to supplements. This is TRG though, where majoring in the minors is the norm.
Get your fruits and veggies in at every meal, eat only whole foods, limit alcohol, eat lots of animal protein and good fats, hydrate, and move a bunch each day. That will get you 90% of the way there. If you want to supplement, use protein powder and creatine. that will get you another 7% of the way there. Who the fuck really cares about the last 3%, especially if you are paying hundreds and hundred of dollars... and if you arent paying that much you are underdosing and seeing placebo effects at best.
My "guilty treat" with supps is i make a peri-workout drink for skiing/MTBing when its a long day. Its a concentrated mix of Tang, Preworkout, and EAAs. If i am working HARD and its been a couple hours from last meal, and will be another couple hours to a meal i will slam a 20oz concoction of the above. Has a bunch of carbs (tang), a bunch of caffeine and beta alanine (preworkout), and EAAs to increase overall recovery ability from the day. I think it works well.
Reduced consumption of animal protein seems like a great use case for collagen supplementation.
[/eyeroll]Quote:
Originally Posted by californiagrown
and acai, and apple cider vinegar, etc. Big hype, minimal benefit, and a people with an already healthy diet wont see much if any benefit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
Read that Rhonda Patrick link.Quote:
Originally Posted by californiagrown
1. It's unequivocal fact that collagen production declines dramatically with age.
2. High-quality radiolabeling studies prove that dietary collagen peptides are incorporated into connective tissue in vivo.
3. Numerous randomized controlled trials in humans have shown collagen supplementation to outperform placebo for multiple clinical endpoints for skin, bone, and joint health.
In an absolute worst-case scenario, glycine allows you to make delicious, healthy, sugar-free lemonade that only costs a few cents more than what you pay for the lemons.
eta: While the claims that ACV will cure cancer and shit are obviously bullshit, there is a mountain of strong clinical evidence that vinegar dramatically improves post-prandial glucose control even in healthy insulin-sensitive people.
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Originally Posted by californiagrown
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Originally Posted by Dantheman
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Originally Posted by californiagrown
californaigrown fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia. But only slightly less well known is this, never go in against dantheman when nutrition science is on the line.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
Again, majoring in minors. Is there a benefit? Sure. Is it worth supplementing? For some people, but most would see greater benefit from generally eating better and moving more. Similar to all the other fad foods they are a small piece of the puzzle that people like to focus on while ignoring the other 100 pieces. So yeah i like to callout majoring in the minors with diet exercise when i see it. Keep the main thing the main thing. Focus on fundamentals. Etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
FWIW i used collagen w/vit C during rehab back from a knee ligament tear. I recovered quick. How much was due to collagen supplementation vs being religous about rehab, diet, cardio shape, sleep etc during the recovery? probably a very small part.
This is the nutrition science thread, not the "Basic Lifestyle Advice for Obese Mouth Breathers Who Can't Accept That There Are No Shortcuts" thread.
Are you sure this thread isnt 90% that demographic? haha. Maybe obese was a bit much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
IME, and im sure yours too, the above describes the large majority of folks asking you for supplement/workout tips and tricks.
Anyways, ill fuck off and stop cunting up this thread. My top nutritional science tip: Undutched cocoa helps stave off the jitters from too much coffee, and is packed with antioxidants. Mix it into a breakfast smoothie or your morning coffee.
I'd like to the think that I don't offer up "tips and tricks" but rather a sober review of the available scientific evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by californiagrown
Cocoa powder is definitely healthy AF. Your reported reduction in caffeine jitters is probably related to the theobromine content (hypothesizing, I haven't research this, but theobromine is the primary psychoactive compound in cocoa besides caffeine), or maybe even just the fiber content slowing absorption. For caffeine jitters, consider trying L-Theanine. There's a lot of research out there on caffeine+theanine with the consensus being that combining caffeine with theanine produces a mellower, more attenuated buzz than caffeine alone and ameliorates the vasoconstriction and BP rise associated with caffeine alone. Most reputable brands cost less than 5 cents per 200 mg dose.Quote:
Originally Posted by californiagrown
Ali Boolani, Jacob B. Lindheimer, Bryan D. Loy, Stephen. "Acute effects of brewed cocoa consumption on attention, motivation to perform cognitive work and feelings of anxiety, energy and fatigue: a randomized, placebo-controlled crossover experiment," BMC, 13 January 2017.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
I see zero effect from L-theanine FWIW. Im honestly not sure i see an effect from the cocoa powder in my morning smoothie before coffee (could be placebo), but its super cheap, supposedly super healthy, and i fucking love chocolate so a more intense chocolate flavor is always a plus for me.
I see an instant effect on my happiness from a daily intake of annoyingly dark chocolate. Kinda partial to the Trader Joe's stuff despite its waxiness and weird but delicious flavor.
I've never met a >70% I didn't like.
Interesting on the collagen. I just bought a kilo of hydrolyzed collagen from bulk supplements for $30. Knocks on wood…. I’ve never had a major knee injury but as someone who skies hard, lifts heavy, and is over 200lbs my knees could use some help.
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I like Bulk Supplements. Its where i get my EAAs from. Unflavored and horrible tasting somewhat by design. You know what will make your joints feel way better than collagen? Deca. Is this the right place to post that?Quote:
Originally Posted by neufox47
Anyone here slam some baking soda before a big MTB ride or ski day? What is your preferred dosing protocol?
BS is pretty great. I don't remember their collagen prices being that good so that heads up is appreciated.Quote:
Originally Posted by californiagrown
Probably not the right thread for it, but I don't have any particular philosophical opposition to PEDs. I would recommend not procuring them from some dude at the gym. If you want to go that route find an agreeable physician.Quote:
Originally Posted by californiagrown
From what I've read about bicarb and what XrtPickles has posted in the Sprockets training thread it's short-acting and only useful for very high-intensity efforts that last a few minutes at most. In the amounts required it's a fine line between achieving a performance benefit and creating shit-your-pants level GI distress, so tread lightly.Quote:
Originally Posted by californiagrown
His post seemed like more cunting/trolling, good for you for not taking the bait.
As an obese mouth breather looking for shortcuts, I appreciate having DTM do some of the research for me. Day 2 of collagen coming up.
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DTM, re: the ACV comment, what does that mean for generally healthy people? How should they use it / how are you using it? And in that same vein...what is your general daily/weekly supplement structure? Would also be curious of other healthy/nerdy mags thoughts on the supplement front (focusing on generally healthy/active people in their 30s/40s).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
I only take Vit D right now, but based on this thread, I have been looking at other reasonable and beneficial supplements for a relatively healthy adult. (I did try that tingly stuff from the cycling training thread but didn't think it was that beneficial for me as an endurance runner).
After listening to Huberman on alcohol, I'm trying to be smarter about consumption (even though I'm a light drinker). Though not a perfect analogy, he quotes a study that equates one drink to 10 cigarettes. :eek: Even if it's wrong and it's closer to three cigarettes, that's insane (I'm not a smoker). I've also been meaning to listen to Huberman with Peter Attia.
Edit: in that podcast episode, and from other sources, I've heard a fair bit about B12. Collagen and glycine have been discussed a fair bit on TGR and I'm also intrigued by BCAA/EAAs.
Like my patients, where we just increase the insulin or add a GLP-1 agonist instead of just losing a bit of weight. See you in three months........oh look, nothing changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
Pretty wild study that proposes gut bacteria causes people to regain weight after a diet. Eating a high protein diet after ending weight loss helped prevent people from gaining the weight back
https://www.nature.com/articles/s42255-022-00687-6
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Sorry, missed this post the first time. I'll try to write up a response this weekend.Quote:
Originally Posted by fool
But, they're still better off with metformin and Wegovy and no lifestyle changes than nothing at all. If they were addicted to heroin instead of junk food we'd tell them to fuck off and come back when they can piss clean for soda.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackhead
Interesting, thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by neufox47
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Originally Posted by Trackhead
My PCP is probably feeling the same way about me. My numbers are all very good, but A1C is just a bit high and it went up slightly last week. Of course he left a condescending phone message w/out seeing or talking to me after he saw the test results. After years and years of seeing patients fail its to be expected, hence the attitude.
Yeah my attempt to lose weight and drop some carbs seemed like it failed, but he's already given up on me. I don't want to fix this w a Rx so I did some more research in the last few days and came up w a better strategy. I have no excuse for failing to modify my diet or lose weight, but others may not have the time or money, or knowledge to make changes in lifetime habits.
I used to be less active, have more stress, sleep less, weigh more, eat worse yet the A1C was never high - does the pancreas just slow down or are there other factors involved too? In my estimation covering it up w an Rx doesn't get to the root cause.
^^I don’t ever order hemoglobin A1C anywhere near Thanksgiving or Christmas. Too much alcohol and cheesecake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackhead
That's understandable. Will work on it and retest in a couple months.
In all fairness, we try to prescribe Suboxone for opioid addiction, but often it is not unlike treating diabetes, where we just throw more pharma at the issue in hopes something will work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
Little late here but may be helpful regardless to you or whoever else and theanine has been one of the very few supplements I've found helpful. I've found a noticeable difference depending on brand, specifically ones with "suntheanine" seem to work significantly better. Haven't tried it with coffee but I take l-theanine whenever I might have some extra nerves/anxiety like a presentation, first date, hungover, etc. and I can notice a difference. I also feel more focused (probably because of the reduced ADD you get from nerves/anxiety). Its the only supplement I've noticed that makes a difference, most "calming" supplements just make me more anxious.Quote:
Originally Posted by californiagrown
I use this one: https://www.amazon.com/Suntheanine%C...NsaWNrPXRydWU=
Define "slightly." All lab tests have margin of error of at least 10-25%. I wouldn't get worked up about your A1C fluctuating by up to ~0.5% in one test, especially in the absence of other data like fasting glucose, glucose tolerance, etc. I'd ask about getting a continuous glucose monitor for a while so you can refine your strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopeless Sinner
Basic diabetes progression is this: Cells become resistant to insulin, pancreas pumps out more insulin to compensate, insulin resistance worsens, overworked islet cells can't maintain the required insulin output and start shutting down due to burnout, islet cells die completely and you cannot produce insulin at all. If you make it to the final stage yer fucked, but it's all reversible before that point.
True, things like employment and public housing are where people are more likely to get kicked to the curb.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackhead
I hate to hijack the conversation, but I’m pretty much a newb to this topic. And this thread is dense.
Realizing I need more protein in my diet. I eat very well but meat comes in high quality/low quantity.
The CrossFit and paleo folks say I should be getting ~170g of protein a day. I don’t even get 1/2 that.
What is a good source for a quality protein supplement? Would be great if it was from grass-fed cows or even veggie-sourced.
I currently use the “Ancient Nutrition” brand but at ~$2 / 20g serving it’s pretty expensive. I use the “chocolate” flavor which is ok in a smoothie but the stevia flavoring is pretty gross
What is the go-to protein supplement? That ideally isn’t from feed-lot cattle?
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1.6 g/kg/day is all you need. 170 g/day is a lot. Whey isolate is marginally better than concentrate, but more expensive. Coming from grass fed cows and shit is irrelevant when you're talking about purified protein.
Thanks. That would make it around 120g/day which is still quite a bit more than I’m getting with just diet
I know that the source (feed lot v. grass fed/smaller ranches) is irrelevant when it comes to nutrition, but I try to support companies that use more ethical practices. (Even if it only makes me feel better. )
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Just finished this book
Attachment 440286
Excellent, and very readable
Takeaways
1. You cannot exercise your way to weight loss. Men’s bodies want to burn about 3000 cals per day regardless of caloric intake. Our brain (hypothalamus) will cause reduced body functions (reproduction, immune, liver) if we exceed that workload without more calories in.
2. We evolved as opportunistic Hunter gatherers - our Paleo ancestors consumed more carbs than we do now (IOW the theory behind Paleo Diet is bullshit)
3. Whatever the diet - Keto, Paleo, low fat, vegan, junk food - the only thing that matters is calories. Unless you are diabetic, then low carb may be necessary due to insulin sensitivity.
4. Modern packaged foods make your brain tell you to overeat - incredibly dense nutritionally and literally designed to fuck with your brain’s responses to reward & satiety. Eat whole, unprocessed foods and lots of protein to increase satiety per calorie. And not a lot of different foods - a smorgasbord really fucks with brain reward systems
5. Even though you won’t lose weight just by exercising, it’s still incredibly good for us - blood flow, reduced inflammation response, reduced stress response, the list is huge.
6. The max human workload is roughly 2.5x base metabolic rate. Your cell mitochondria can’t make ATP any faster. For reference, that’s what a woman burns during pregnancy.
My favorite brand is Dymatize Iso100 protein isolate, but it has gotten expensive recently. I like that is uses Stevia as the sweetener.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tech Tonics
I bought a couple big bottles of Nutricost whey isolate on Black Friday because it was a good deal. Mixes well enough, but doesn't taste as good. I tried their grass fed version in the past, but didn't notice any difference other than being more expensive.
Costco is currently running a good sale on protein powder, but it's a mix of isolate and concentrate. The carb content is still low however.
Obesity impairs the neurological response to nutrient intake, and short-term weight loss does not restore the response.
https://www.statnews.com/2023/06/12/...trients-study/
https://www.nature.com/articles/s42255-023-00816-9
I've revised my stance on this after listening to Peter Attia's interview with Don Layman (https://peterattiamd.com/donlayman/). 1.6 g/kg/day should be the absolute minimum, especially for anyone over 30, and there's no downside up to at least 2.2 g/kg/day. Also, get at least 30 g/meal to maximize leucine signaling (detailed in the interview, TL; DL version is that hitting a minimum threshold of leucine intake stimulates muscle protein synthesis independent of exercise).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman