The Official Gun Control Debate thread

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Originally Posted by Toby

BTW, the idea that a private citizen can legally and justifiably shoot anyone is crazy to me. But yeah, I'm not American.

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Since you're from far away; some more factoids: gun laws are also the domain of individual states. Some states, like Vermont, have no gun laws and some, like Hawaii, are very restrictive. Many states have their own "right to bear arms" in their constitutions so even if the second amendment is re-interpreted it won't affect some states. The British Bill of Rights (1689) also has a "Subject's right to bear arms for defence" but the modern government (and courts) choose to ignore it.

Italy passed a self-defence law in 2006 that allows the use of guns and knives.

Right to carry in the USofA:
http://www.nraila.org/images/rtcmaplg.jpg

Toby - I heard that a dingo ate your baby. Gentlemen - you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!

^ No, that was my American wife Meryl's baby. She only pretends to be Australian.

Thanks Snow Dog. Don't edumucate me too much, though. Jer will have to retract his ign'ant Austrailian comment ;).

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Originally Posted by Spats

False.

More official government statistics:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm

"According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from -

* a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
* a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
* family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%"

This should be common sense: criminals get their guns illegally, so restrictions on gun ownership only affect non-criminals.

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Is having a gun handed down from a family member obtaining a gun illegally? I honestly don't know. Personally I've been given a shotgun and hunting rifle from my grandfather and there were some forms to register the gun, but according to your post this would be illegal. If your friend gives you a gun and you fill out the forms to transfer ownership this is also illegal? Somehow I highly doubt it.

Sidenote: I don't understand peoples issue with regulating gun ownership more. Is it the inconvinience? Because if it saves one live I think it's a worthwile inconvinience. Just my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush

Sidenote: I don't understand peoples issue with regulating gun ownership more. Is it the inconvinience? Because if it saves one live I think it's a worthwile inconvinience. Just my 2 cents.

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Another West Coast liberal who doesn't get it. It's not about saving lives. It's about protection and prevention. Guns prevent crime. It would be much worse carnage in the US without the 192 million guns (65 million hand guns). Jeez ! We're a peace loving country and guns create that peace and civility. Get a clue :nonono2:

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Originally Posted by TruckeeLocal

Another West Coast liberal who doesn't get it. It's not about saving lives. It's about protection and prevention. Guns prevent crime. It would be much worse carnage in the US without the 192 million guns (65 million hand guns). Jeez ! We're a peace loving country and guns create that peace and civility. Get a clue :nonono2:

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I wouldn't label myself as a liberal or conservative. I'd like to think I look at the issue at hand and think critically about it.

So, things like the Va Tech shooting are examples of how guns prevented crime in your opinion? How do you argue that a more thorough background check, a waiting period, or any other sort of regulation that would've pulled up the information regarding his mental health wouldn't have helped? Maybe he would've found a gun illegally regardless, but I don't get why you are against some more regulation with acquiring a gun. I'm not suggesting that guns be made illegal. I'm suggesting that the process to obtain a gun be made into a process that is more thorough. If that makes me a liberal so be it.

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Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush

Sidenote: I don't understand peoples issue with regulating gun ownership more. Is it the inconvinience? Because if it saves one live I think it's a worthwile inconvinience. Just my 2 cents.

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Because gun registration = gun confiscation 100% of the time. Not right away but eventually some event leads some posturing polititian to ban some type of firearm and look -- they already have a list. It's happened in Britain, it's happened in Australia, it's happened in Canada, and it happened in Hitler's Germany.

I like most of Canada's system -- to buy/use firearms and ammuntion you need a firearms licence which means you take a safety course and pass a background check. At home firearms must be kept unloaded and locked up. I just don't like the firearms registration part although handguns have been registered since 1935.

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Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush

I wouldn't label myself as a liberal or conservative. I'd like to think I look at the issue at hand and think critically about it.

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I'm sorry, your SAM (sarcasm alert monitor) isn't working. I'm horrified by the level of accepted firearm deaths that are tolerated in this country, 12,000. I'm horrified by the sheer number of guns in circulation. I'm horrified that the immediate reaction to a noteworthy gun crime is to make more guns available in more situations. And I'm horrified that I tolerate the situation 'cause this will all blow over and we'll be back to normal. Normal being 30+ firearm homicides per day on average.

Oh, and I certainly don't presume to judge your political persuation.

HOLY CRAP!!!

ding ding, and the Godwin award goes to Snow Dog !

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Originally Posted by Snow Dog

Because gun registration = gun confiscation 100% of the time. Not right away but eventually some event leads some posturing polititian to ban some type of firearm and look -- they already have a list. It's happened in Britain, it's happened in Australia, it's happened in Canada, and it happened in Hitler's Germany.

I like most of Canada's system -- to buy/use firearms and ammuntion you need a firearms licence which means you take a safety course and pass a background check. At home firearms must be kept unloaded and locked up. I just don't like the firearms registration part although handguns have been registered since 1935.

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Originally Posted by Snow Dog

Right to carry in the USofA:

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While its "restrictive" (and for good fucking reason) in MA to get a concealed carry license, it certainly isn't hard.
Just takes a little time.

40 Reasons to Ban Guns

1. Banning guns works, which is why New York, DC, Detroit & Chicago cops need guns.

2. Washington DC's low murder rate of 69 per 100,000 is due to strict gun control, and Indianapolis' high murder rate of 9 per 100,000 is due to the lack of gun control.

3. Statistics showing high murder rates justify gun control but statistics showing increasing murder rates after gun control are "just statistics."

4. The Brady Bill and the Assault Weapons Ban, both of which went into effect in 1994 are responsible for the decrease in violent crime rates, which have been declining since 1991.

5. We must get rid of guns because a deranged lunatic may go on a shooting spree at any time and anyone who would own a gun out of fear of such a lunatic is paranoid.

6. The more helpless you are the safer you are from criminals.

7. An intruder will be incapacitated by tear gas or oven spray, but if shot with a .357 Magnum will get angry and kill you.

8. A woman raped and strangled is morally superior to a woman with a smoking gun and a dead rapist at her feet.

9. When confronted by violent criminals, you should "put up no defense - give them what they want, or run" (Handgun Control Inc. Chairman Pete Shields, Guns Don't Die - People Do, 1981, p. 125).

10. The New England Journal of Medicine is filled with expert advice about guns; just like Guns & Ammo has some excellent treatises on heart surgery.

11. One should consult an automotive engineer for safer seat belts, a civil engineer for a better bridge, a surgeon for internal medicine, a computer programmer for hard drive problems, and Sarah Brady for firearms expertise.

12. The 2nd Amendment, ratified in 1787, refers to the National Guard, which was created 130 years later, in 1917.

13. The National Guard, federally funded, with bases on federal land, using federally-owned weapons, vehicles, buildings and uniforms, punishing trespassers under federal law, is a "state" militia.

14. These phrases: "right of the people peaceably to assemble," "right of the people to be secure in their homes," "enumerations herein of certain rights shall not be construed to disparage others retained by the people," and "The powers not delegated herein are reserved to the states respectively, and to the people" all refer to individuals, but "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" refers to the state.

15. "The Constitution is strong and will never change." But we should ban and seize all guns thereby violating the 2nd, 4th, and 5th Amendments to that Constitution.

16. Rifles and handguns aren't necessary to national defense! Of course, the army has hundreds of thousands of them.

17. Private citizens shouldn't have handguns, because they aren't "military weapons'', but private citizens shouldn't have "assault rifles'', because they are military weapons.

18. In spite of waiting periods, background checks, fingerprinting, government forms, etc., guns today are too readily available, which is responsible for recent school shootings. In the 1940's, 1950's and 1960's, anyone could buy guns at hardware stores, army surplus stores, gas stations, variety stores, Sears mail order, no waiting, no background check, no fingerprints, no government forms and there were no school shootings.

19. The NRA's attempt to run a "don't touch" campaign about kids handling guns is propaganda, but the anti-gun lobby's attempt to run a "don't touch" campaign is responsible social activity.

20. Guns are so complex that special training is necessary to use them properly, and so simple to use that they make murder easy.

21. A handgun, with up to 4 controls, is far too complex for the typical adult to learn to use, as opposed to an automobile that only has 20.

22. Women are just as intelligent and capable as men but a woman with a gun is "an accident waiting to happen" and gun makers' advertisements aimed at women are "preying on their fears."

23. Ordinary people in the presence of guns turn into slaughtering butchers but revert to normal when the weapon is removed.

24. Guns cause violence, which is why there are so many mass killings at gun shows.

25. A majority of the population supports gun control, just like a majority of the population supported owning slaves.

26. Any self-loading small arm can legitimately be considered to be a "weapon of mass destruction" or an "assault weapon."

27. Most people can't be trusted, so we should have laws against guns, which most people will abide by because they can be trusted.

28. The right of Internet pornographers to exist cannot be questioned because it is constitutionally protected by the Bill of Rights, but the use of handguns for self defense is not really protected by the Bill of Rights.

29. Free speech entitles one to own newspapers, transmitters, computers, and typewriters, but self- defense only justifies bare hands.

30. The ACLU is good because it uncompromisingly defends certain parts of the Constitution, and the NRA is bad, because it defends other parts of the Constitution.

31. Charlton Heston, a movie actor as president of the NRA is a cheap lunatic who should be ignored, but Michael Douglas, a movie actor as a representative of Handgun Control, Inc. is an ambassador for peace who is entitled to an audience at the UN arms control summit.

32. Police operate with backup within groups, which is why they need larger capacity pistol magazines than do "civilians" who must face criminals alone and therefore need less ammunition.

33. We should ban "Saturday Night Specials" and other inexpensive guns because it's not fair that poor people have access to guns too.

34. Police officers have some special Jedi-like mastery over handguns that private citizens can never hope to obtain.

35. Private citizens don't need a gun for self- protection because the police are there to protect them even though the Supreme Court says the police are not responsible for their protection.

36. Citizens don't need to carry a gun for personal protection but police chiefs, who are desk-bound administrators who work in a building filled with cops, need a gun.

37. "Assault weapons" have no purpose other than to kill large numbers of people. The police need assault weapons. You do not.

38. When Microsoft pressures its distributors to give Microsoft preferential promotion, that's bad; but when the Federal government pressures cities to buy guns only from Smith & Wesson, that's good.

39. Trigger locks do not interfere with the ability to use a gun for defensive purposes, which is why you see police officers with one on their duty weapon.

40. Handgun Control, Inc., says they want to "keep guns out of the wrong hands." Guess what? You have the wrong hands.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u.../14silence.gif

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Originally Posted by Free Range Lobster

While its "restrictive" (and for good fucking reason) in MA to get a concealed carry license, it certainly isn't hard.
Just takes a little time.

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My buddy who lives in a town near Foxboro said the Chief of Police would NOT issue him a concealed carry permit in any circumstance because the Chief did not think he needed it.

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Originally Posted by StoneCold

My buddy who lives in a town near Foxboro said the Chief of Police would NOT issue him a concealed carry permit in any circumstance because the Chief did not think he needed it.

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Then he doesn't need it.
Cry more.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u...ach93/butt.gif

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Originally Posted by Toby

I'm Australian. I didn't grow up with guns, but I've shot occasionally, mainly with hunting weapons and only once with a handgun. The scenario I mentioned wasn't a reflection on current American society, it was what I would imagine could potentially happen in a society where everyone carried guns.

BTW, the idea that a private citizen can legally and justifiably shoot anyone is crazy to me. But yeah, I'm not American.

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Wow, you just don't get it do you? Pull a gun out and start waving it around and you will be shot dead quickly. Grow up in the US and you understand this.

I have a scenario for you.

I come home to find my girlfriend being raped by a drugged out psycho. Do you really not see that I would be completely justified in blowing his brains out?

Not only would I be punishing him for being worthless scum, but would be protecting others from his attacks in the future.

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Originally Posted by spook

interesting. that's pretty much the same idea cho had.

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You sir are an idiot!

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Originally Posted by doughboyshredder

I come home to find my girlfriend being raped by a drugged out psycho. Do you really not see that I would be completely justified in blowing his brains out?

Not only would I be punishing him for being worthless scum, but would be protecting others from his attacks in the future.

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I, as an American, would question your authority to punish or judge anyone as worthless scum let alone blow their brains out. Methinks you may have intruded a little on presumed perp's rights. Even they have rights you know. Unless you've got a gun that is. Shoot first, work out the rights issue later. Hence using a gun can be anti-American

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Originally Posted by TruckeeLocal

I, as an American, would question your authority to punish or judge anyone as worthless scum let alone blow their brains out. Methinks you may have intruded a little on presumed perp's rights. Even they have rights you know. Unless you've got a gun that is. Shoot first, work out the rights issue later. Hence using a gun can be anti-American

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That's right... when someone is in your house for any reason other than being invited in... shoot first and let God sort em out. God knows that your house wasn't the first one and will definately not be the last otherwise.

Your a nut. If someone was raping my wife or child when I came home they would be dead before they knew what happened. There's something people like to call vigilanty justice. It just means getting rid of the scumbags violating your house or person while in your home.

When are idiots like you going to be more worried about the victim instead of the criminal? You seem to have no compassion for victims of rape in your last statement and think we owe the rapist due justice. Your a nutcase.

Get used to it. Guns are here to stay in the US. If you are such a pansy that you would sit and let your wife get raped thats pretty sick. What are going to talk him out of it or maybe pass him some lube so it's more comfortable for her? You are what's wrong with America!:fuckyou: :the_finge :fuckyou: :the_finge :fuckyou: :the_finge :fuckyou: :the_finge :nonono2: :nonono2: :nonono2: :nonono2: :nonono2:

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Originally Posted by Crass3000

vigilanty

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.....................:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

.....................:rolleyes:

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Hey remember P3WNEDBrit. I seem to remeber catching your spelling mistakes too. It's not too hard to be an anal knob and proofread posts to find spelling errors. But commence if it makes you feel smart, superior or in any way helps you get over that inferiority complex.:)

It was more the irony than the actual spelling mistake that amused me.

I have an excuse, American is a second language for me.

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

It was more the irony than the actual spelling mistake that amused me.

I have an excuse, American is a second language for me.

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Believe it or not I had a feeling that was misspelled. You have to give us Amaericanos a break. You Brits are supposed to have three times the vocabulary as us. We just have a hard time with english.

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Originally Posted by Crass3000

Believe it or not I had a feeling that was misspelled. You have to give us Amaericanos a break. You Brits are supposed to have three times the vocabulary as us. We just have a hard time with english.

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And a hard time understanding that your gun didn't protect your girlfriend (she's getting raped remember), not did it prevent crime (the perp is high on drugs). So the only thing your gun is good for is vindication. And revenge without due process. And I, for one, don't think you'd be qualified to make a non-proportional response under the circumstance given the tool you propose using to end the situation. What would you do if you didn't have a gun ? Probably knock the crap out of him with a baseball bat - a more proportional, and appropriate, response.