2018-19 Praxis Skis Info and Resource Thread

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Originally Posted by Muggydude

Basically Praxis is no longer doing custom skis/ski sale and liquidating their current inventory. Future is uncertain for the company but I think the experimental ski concept being introduced is a good sign.

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Interesting word choice in Keith’s latest email (my emphasis):

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Originally Posted by “Praxis Skis”

... many models are down to just one or two remaining in inventory and once sold out, they will not be available again until next year.

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I wonder if it’s a temporary cash flow issue or a broader issue of running online retail fulfillment throughout the season. Anyways, after having just bought a new (to me) MTB, a bunch of kid ski and bike gear, and my wife wanting a waxless ski setup ... new BC’s (or Yetis plus Wootests if stop spending so much on booze hookers and blow) are gonna have to wait until next year for me.

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Originally Posted by nickel

It's close enough I'm sure I'd be happy with it. In fact I'm rather disappointed i didn't indebt myself and get in when Keith and Pat did the small run but it wasn't quite time and I'd rather see a few changes. The addition of tail rocker was unnecessary IMO and it could have been longer and even more pintailed. YMMV.

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After owning both and skiing both a ton, the tail rocker made that ski a much better ride. IMO. Gets loose easier and gives up zero carving ability that it had before.

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Originally Posted by eskido

I’m pretty sold on the Kusala but if we were to adjust the tail I’d like to see something similar to the Lithic Skunkworks 122 tail but I have no idea how that would match up with Splat’s rocker profile or sidecut. Definitely agree with the stiffer flex all throughout the ski.

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Sold on Kusala as well. No pintail and stiff, just as Splat designed.

If anyone else is interested in 200cm Powboards, Id throw down for that.


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Originally Posted by tuco

Sold on Kusala as well. No pintail and stiff, just as Splat designed.

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Would a 186 Kusala float as well or about as well as my 185 Powboards? 188 Ku would be money IMO, no changes otherwise, I haven’t heard a complaint about that ski from the Ren crowd. I could only justify getting on the Ku order if I sold off both my 196 Rens and 185 PBs.

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Originally Posted by Self Jupiter

Would a 186 Kusala float as well or about as well as my 185 Powboards? 188 Ku would be money IMO, no changes otherwise, I haven’t heard a complaint about that ski from the Ren crowd. I could only justify getting on the Ku order if I sold off both my 196 Rens and 185 PBs.

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My kusala floats as good as my 192 Protest. Just different feel. Both are quick and I think Protest feels like more running length which is nice for stability but kusala is quicker and shorter effective edge.

Don’t monkey with the designs on either of these since they are so dialed.


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What’s this experimental ski Praxis teased on IG?

based on the numbers that keep getting flashed all i can deduce is 184 length, 94 underfoot and 19m radius.

I could be off the mark but I'll be damned if i can come up with another explanation for 184.94.19

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Originally Posted by nickel

based on the numbers that keep getting flashed all i can deduce is 184 length, 94 underfoot and 19m radius.

I could be off the mark but I'll be damned if i can come up with another explanation for 184.94.19

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Yeah 19 sure ain't the tail width.

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Originally Posted by Self Jupiter

Would a 186 Kusala float as well or about as well as my 185 Powboards? 188 Ku would be money IMO, no changes otherwise, I haven’t heard a complaint about that ski from the Ren crowd. I could only justify getting on the Ku order if I sold off both my 196 Rens and 185 PBs.

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Replace Rens, keep PB
You're wecome

I saw this and forgot to screen grab it then. Explains a lot, wish I could afford another pair this year.

Attachment 300841

Man i hope he sells a bunch. Such a solid dude. Sent a friend there a couple weeks ago. Keith was great and went above and beyond. Was pressing up BC's so he said hed make a stiffer pair for my buddy for the sale price. I think "pow to the people" was very impressed. I kept looking at the site for myself but i just cant right now. Soon though. Great prices atm . Now is the time to support our fave skis and fave builder. First cheque for me soon

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Originally Posted by grinch

Man i hope he sells a bunch. Such a solid dude. Sent a friend there a couple weeks ago. Keith was great and went above and beyond. Was pressing up BC's so he said hed make a stiffer pair for my buddy for the sale price. I think "pow to the people" was very impressed. I kept looking at the site for myself but i just cant right now. Soon though. Great prices atm . Now is the time to support our fave skis and fave builder. First cheque for me soon

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^^^ this ^^^

The writing was on the wall with the increasing frequencies of sales over the past 18 months.

Hopefully Keith pulls through ... first, 'coz he's a great guy with a vision, and secondly 'coz I like his stuff.

... Thom

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Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un

^^^ this ^^^

The writing was on the wall with the increasing frequencies of sales over the past 18 months.

Hopefully Keith pulls through ... first, 'coz he's a great guy with a vision, and secondly 'coz I like his stuff.

... Thom

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Im hoping he does something for black friday. I should be out of the weeds by then. Id like to replace my piste jibs with another pair

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Originally Posted by nickel

based on the numbers that keep getting flashed all i can deduce is 184 length, 94 underfoot and 19m radius.

I could be off the mark but I'll be damned if i can come up with another explanation for 184.94.19

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Interested in this. Looking for a dd and would love to support this company.


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Just went to the site. Had some free rides and original powder boards many moons ago. Liked the skis. Skis listed at $850 on the site. Wtf am I missing?

I just checked too. I think we just missed it. Bummer. Am shopping for something a little skinnier in my line up a small step down from my GPOs

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Originally Posted by dump

Just went to the site. Had some free rides and original powder boards many moons ago. Liked the skis. Skis listed at $850 on the site. Wtf am I missing?

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Originally Posted by Slow 'n Steady

I just checked too. I think we just missed it. Bummer. Am shopping for something a little skinnier in my line up a small step down from my GPOs

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Give him a call. He's usually very generous at extending deals and in the current situation I think he's really wanting to move remaining inventory.

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Originally Posted by dump

Just went to the site. Had some free rides and original powder boards many moons ago. Liked the skis. Skis listed at $850 on the site. Wtf am I missing?

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The sale. You missed the month-long sale.

Re: low sales #'s: I feel like they fouled up a bit re: sizing & production runs. The people(this one at least) want 192 & 196 protest! But alas, out of stock.

Also, to save Praxis:
-Better stock top-sheets. Let's be honest, mouth-breathing American consumers are a superficial bunch, and while some custom options are passable, current stock options are definitely NOT pretty.
-Upsell carbon: "Get your new carbon protest!" Everything sells better if it has carbon in the name. Because it's carbon fiberrr, brah!
-Better exposure! Most shops in the pnw have never heard of Praxis. Get a couple small regional retailers to carry them, if nothing else then to increase name recognition. A couple pairs of wood veneer quality boards sitting next to some bland mass-market whatever, the choice would be obvious

Why I haven't bought Praxis:
Graphics mostly suck unless you layer veneer or something, which gets expensive. (Ie the Praxilhasa Norse & 2funky have)
A lot of the designs/shapes are meh and still the original design. Not the continual improvement/refinement that has been happening with brands like ON3P.
Too many choices. Rx? Or Freeride? Or GPO?
No clear collections of skis to differentiate models by use/deisgn. (freeride, freestyle, touring, dad skis, etc.)
Too many choices within the choices (+10 -10, flex, layup, weight core) It's confusing.
Mount points sketch me out as they seem to be engineered too far forward... thread after thread of multiple remounts, complaints of tip dive. Multiple mags I know have had quietly had skiabilty issues with Praxis skis and have chosen to stay quiet about it... but I haven't been that impressed by feedback.
The ridiculously sharp tunes. I should not need to detune/retune a ski out of wrapper designed for freeride skiing.
Complaints of tip dive on skis that line up with similar skis in the category that don't have any issue with tip dive. Heck, how many killer FWT runs has Tabke blown because of tip dive?

Just my .02 cents

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Originally Posted by The Artist Formerly Known as Leavenworth Skier

Why I haven't bought Praxis:
Graphics mostly suck unless you layer veneer or something, which gets expensive. (Ie the Praxilhasa Norse & 2funky have)
A lot of the designs/shapes are meh and still the original design. Not the continual improvement/refinement that has been happening with brands like ON3P.
Too many choices. Rx? Or Freeride? Or GPO?
No clear collections of skis to differentiate models by use/deisgn. (freeride, freestyle, touring, dad skis, etc.)
Too many choices within the choices (+10 -10, flex, layup, weight core) It's confusing.
Mount points sketch me out as they seem to be engineered too far forward... thread after thread of multiple remounts, complaints of tip dive. Multiple mags I know have had quietly had skiabilty issues with Praxis skis and have chosen to stay quiet about it... but I haven't been that impressed by feedback.
The ridiculously sharp tunes. I should not need to detune/retune a ski out of wrapper designed for freeride skiing.
Complaints of tip dive on skis that line up with similar skis in the category that don't have any issue with tip dive. Heck, how many killer FWT runs has Tabke blown because of tip dive?

Just my .02 cents

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What? I have protest and it rules the roost in deep pow. No dive or issues


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Originally Posted by whyturn

What? I have protest and it rules the roost in deep pow. No dive or issues

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Nor should they. Otherwise what is the point of having a 128mm ski?

I’ve heard of other people having issues with tip dives in some of their other skis though. I’ve only skied protests so cant comment on it first hand.


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I've run into it on my protests but it may be a product of mounting on the line and needing to up-size (6'2 200# on 187)

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Originally Posted by The Artist Formerly Known as Leavenworth Skier

Why I haven't bought Praxis:
Graphics mostly suck unless you layer veneer or something, which gets expensive. (Ie the Praxilhasa Norse & 2funky have)
A lot of the designs/shapes are meh and still the original design. Not the continual improvement/refinement that has been happening with brands like ON3P.
Too many choices. Rx? Or Freeride? Or GPO?
No clear collections of skis to differentiate models by use/deisgn. (freeride, freestyle, touring, dad skis, etc.)
Too many choices within the choices (+10 -10, flex, layup, weight core) It's confusing.
Mount points sketch me out as they seem to be engineered too far forward... thread after thread of multiple remounts, complaints of tip dive. Multiple mags I know have had quietly had skiabilty issues with Praxis skis and have chosen to stay quiet about it... but I haven't been that impressed by feedback.
The ridiculously sharp tunes. I should not need to detune/retune a ski out of wrapper designed for freeride skiing.
Complaints of tip dive on skis that line up with similar skis in the category that don't have any issue with tip dive. Heck, how many killer FWT runs has Tabke blown because of tip dive?

Just my .02 cents

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^ On the money.

It is my humble opinion (adopted and paraphrased from a friend, likely to read this) that Kieth is a world class ski builder but a middling ski designer. And that he got lucky with a couple models like the GPO and Protest, as most folks seem to like those a lot.

The Rx was a bad experience for me personally, and it led me to be much more critical about ski geometry relative to mount/stance/technique/pressure and edge contact. I wish I could say that the rest of the lineup avoided these design issues but it doesn't appear so, at least on paper.

Praxis building other designs like the Lhasa Fat, Kusala, etc. is an attractive path.

Respect to the company. I hope they can continue to operate.

Other than the top-5 selling models, White label manufacturing seems like a good option for Keith. It could be hard when he’s not putting his name on the product but it’s regular orders and money up front for large batches. Let someone else assume the retail risk.

Then take that top-5 and really make them shine with designer top sheets, carbon upgrades and veneers.

If Keith listened to most of these suggestions, he'd be in worse shape than he is. 195cm - do you really think there are more than a handful of people who would buy them? What about the Supergoat? One run and done, right?


If 20 of you opened your wallets and went to Keith, I'm sure he would have built a long missile for you.

I'll bet most of the critics here weigh well North of 220 Lbs. Cut your beer consumption.

Stagnant development? Thank goodness the GPO remains unchanged. It's my favorite ski ever ... lucky design or not.

Read the debate about whether the Lhasa should have changed at all - people were on the fence. How old is that design? Change a seminal design just for the helluvit?

Agreed about ambiguous mount points.

I also agree that the +10/-10 was a mistake. These need to be a fully tested model rather than a "what the hell, let's try it" option. It should have been more like how Moment treats the Wildcat (two widths) or ON3P does the Woodsman & Wren.

Can you imagine a fleshed out GPO family in 96/106/116? It would make much more sense (less buyer confusion) than say, having a Pste Jib (even if the PJ were merely renamed) along with some random 106 ski in the lineup.

Topsheets & ON3P: Other than recent Billy Goats (since 15/16), the Steeples, and the plain top, their skis make me want to get out a can of Krylon. They make me want to puke. No accounting for taste, I suppose ;-)

Ski design competency - the real problem lies in the difficulty in demoing. No ski can be all things to all people, and several designs were intended to be niche skis.

Then there's the TGR Bro factor - ignoring some phenomenal skis.

For example, I picked up a pair of EXPs from @grinch last Spring - a completely ignored ski when discussions of Zero G 85s come up - amazing stability, maneuerability, and versatility in an 88mm ski.

Lastly (in honor of Alpy) ... Praxis Rx.

... Thom

I had tip dive on my 192 ProTests at recommended and at -1 when I skied them in an athletic stance. But initially I also had issues with my SuperGoats when I first got them. I solved the issues on my SuperGoats with a toe shim that flattened the ramp angle of the bindings to nearly zero. I think that a shim would have solved my issues with the ProTest as well but I sold them before I tried the toe shim.

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Originally Posted by Kopi_Red

I had tip dive on my 192 ProTests at recommended and at -1 when I skied them in an athletic stance. But initially I also had issues with my SuperGoats when I first got them. I solved the issues on my SuperGoats with a toe shim that flattened the ramp angle of the bindings to nearly zero. I think that a shim would have solved my issues with the ProTest as well but I sold them before I tried the toe shim.

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Protests were one of my regrets, but I seem to be in the minority. I'm OK with that.

People I respect tell me that it takes 4-5 days to master them, after which, an entirely new world opens up to you.

I don't have the patience (or number of epic powder days in a season) to do this. With limited inbounds powder days in a given year, I don't want to spend my time ski testing. If I logged 100 day seasons, it would be different.

... Thom

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Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un

Read the debate about whether the Lhasa should have changed at all. How old is that design? Change a seminal design just for the helluvit.

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Sounds like you have a reading comprehension deficit.

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Originally Posted by jackattack

Sounds like you have a reading comprehension deficit.

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Many debate whether the tail rocker should have been messed with. I ain't takin' sides, and it doesn't change the basic argument.

One guy who hasn’t even skied the new ones with tail rocker =/= many debates.

The tail rocker version is better


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Originally Posted by jackattack

Sounds like you have a reading comprehension deficit.

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No kidding. That slight change made that ski a much better ski. A couple who said not to mess with it sound as though they haven’t been on either version. Splats complaint is that he has issue initiating a turn, that has zero to do with the ever so tiny tail rocker that was added, and has his full input and final stamp of approval. Myself as well as others who i have spoke with that skied both iterations love the addition of tail rocker and have zero issue with turn initiation and carving. Mine still hip drag carve just like my other ones did. That’s impressive for a 117 underfoot ski that will also now pivot and slarve with ease.

As far as praxis and the comments above, i sort of echo some of the points. The Protest is/was the only ski that really grabbed my eye, that was several years ago and now i cannot see them NOT in my quiver, own 188’s and 192’s. Clicked for me the first run. Made me look at the mountain very differently and ski a little differently which i really dig and has progressed into my other skis, except for skis that demand old school tip driving technique.

Probably there's a problem with the sales model when you have mount points and factory razor sharp tunes designed for pro comp skiers vs. us pedestrians who want shit to work out of the box.

Also agree on +/-10mm comments and family/series branding within your lineup vs. asking your customers to pick and choose every ski design option they want.

I think most of us really just need to be able to pick custom topsheets and flex stiffness when it comes to preseason pre-sales.

Too many choices hurts the consumer and the manufacturer because then you have a supply chain complexity and factory assembly cell materials queing problem. I think even the available core/layup choices should just be constrained by the model of ski, which then allows the personality (and therefore brand identity) of each model to be more consistent from user to user. More layup and veneer type options also means as a manufacturer you are more cash-out before you've even shipped products because you're buying more options of materials than consolidating around common materials for all of your various product platforms.

The other custom stuff (material type of veneer, +/- 10mm, whatever else you can dream of, razor sharp vs. standard detune) is really just a "power user" interface that shouldn't even be on each of the ski ordering pages, probably just an email template form somewhere else, and charge a boatload more for it because if makes your business model way more complex.

Also, I for one happen to believe in veneer, and I believe it's a Praxis differentiator. Consider making it a part of your brand identity and just don't sell nylon topsheet skis. Sure it costs more, but the skis ski better and it maintains the fanboi love of everyone in lift lines explaining to other people why Praxis skis are "so much better" than Rossi/Head/Volkl/K2/whatever. You'll probably lose a few sales to Moment and ON3P if you drop nylon, but you also zero in on "your customers" and further dig into your brand identity. If you can extract an appropriate premium for it, it may help with margins since you'll have less material variability.

My $0.03.

I'm also just spitballing, I have never put my own $$ and life on the line for a business of passion that I also need to pay the bills. Nor have I ever built skis. I did work in business and manufacturing, but also I found myself a sugar momma to pay the bills. So, I say all of this with mad respect for what Keith has done!!!

I wasn't tallying votes with respect to the classic vs. new Lhasa discussion.

My comment (perhaps not clearly written) was intended to make the point that you don't throw out a design because it's old. Of course you revisit it.

It sounds as if you guys nailed it with the change, but it could have just as easily been a Wootest 1.0. The fact that @splat and Keith had heavy involvement (and interest) put the odds in your favor however.

... Thom

Ah, gotcha.

I'm still digging my MVPs. Mounted 1cm behind the line and detuned like a sum-bitch. Carve, skid, slarve... whatever, they do it all.

Really want to try the ProTest but I can't justify owning those while living far, far away from any real skiing.

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Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un

If Keith listened to most of these suggestions, he'd be in worse shape than he is. 195cm - do you really think there are more than a handful of people who would buy them? What about the Supergoat? One run and done, right?


If 20 of you opened your wallets and went to Keith, I'm sure he would have built a long missile for you.

I'll bet most of the critics here weigh well North of 220 Lbs. Cut your beer consumption.

Stagnant development? Thank goodness the GPO remains unchanged. It's my favorite ski ever ... lucky design or not.

Read the debate about whether the Lhasa should have changed at all - people were on the fence. How old is that design? Change a seminal design just for the helluvit?

Agreed about ambiguous mount points.

I also agree that the +10/-10 was a mistake. These need to be a fully tested model rather than a "what the hell, let's try it" option. It should have been more like how Moment treats the Wildcat (two widths) or ON3P does the Woodsman & Wren.

Can you imagine a fleshed out GPO family in 96/106/116? It would make much more sense (less buyer confusion) than say, having a Pste Jib (even if the PJ were merely renamed) along with some random 106 ski in the lineup.

Topsheets & ON3P: Other than recent Billy Goats (since 15/16), the Steeples, and the plain top, their skis make me want to get out a can of Krylon. They make me want to puke. No accounting for taste, I suppose ;-)

Ski design competency - the real problem lies in the difficulty in demoing. No ski can be all things to all people, and several designs were intended to be niche skis.

Then there's the TGR Bro factor - ignoring some phenomenal skis.

For example, I picked up a pair of EXPs from @grinch last Spring - a completely ignored ski when discussions of Zero G 85s come up - amazing stability, maneuerability, and versatility in an 88mm ski.

Lastly (in honor of Alpy) ... Praxis Rx.

... Thom

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Felt a sting there, Thom? Nobody is immune to brand loyalty.

I'm 180, by the way, in case you feel like buying me underwear for Valentine's Day. You're coming to Alpy, right?

Rider weight isn't as important as where the pressure gets applied. Folks are figuring that out with sensitivities to ramp, mount point, etc as they relate to sidecut and flex. Praxis have more fwd mount points than some guys prefer.

Praxis Rx... baha, my favorite joke here now. Perfect example. That shape is like ten years old and has been far eclipsed. Bob repped it so consistently here that a bunch of folks went and bought some, including me! Trad camber, 32m radius, tip rocker only... sounded pretty ok as a big mountain ski! But the mount point puts you wayy too far forward on the effective edge, forcing you to steer from the heels and ass.

Some guys really jive with that; Tabke has a more neutral stance, which certainly affected his design input for the Rx, Q, etc. But it also perhaps explains why skiers with traditional backgrounds, racers, shin drivers, aren't keeping (all) their Praxis.

Cult classics excepted, as they build their own following out of performance rather than bandwaggoning. How many here have kept their Protests but sold their BC, Yeti, Piste Jib?

But I'm just an armchair dentiste

I have wootest and will see about those as well. But they look sweet

Overall less models and Marie focused approach may help. I’m sure Keith knows what sells and it ain’t 196 protest.

Maybe partner with local distributors like Tahoe mag ski shop. But then they get a cut.

I hope they can stay viable and if not I’m hoarding the protest.


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A philosophical point regarding incremental product changes ...

Manufacturers are in a rough position, and live on a continuum between two extremes:

• the market driven organizations that change product frequently (if only the cosmetics, but sometimes the design) in order to work the buying public into a lather.
• the engineering driven organizations who make changes (sometimes incremental) and frequently don't even blow their horns about it.

In the old days, I would have characterized Canon cameras in the first category and Nikon in the latter.

Somewhere in the middle lies a happy medium (commercial viability vs. not alienating your customer).

At one extreme, folks get pissed when they bought the latest and greatest, only to discover that their pride and joy is obsolete two weeks after purchase. At the other extreme, they wonder if you're actually working on improvement.

Remember Pat's comments about grinding off 2mm of edge from the Lhasa tail? I wonder if he incorporated a change in production without mentioning it ... that sort of thing.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming ...

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Originally Posted by Norseman

Felt a sting there, Thom? Nobody is immune to brand loyalty.

I'm 180, by the way, in case you feel like buying me underwear for Valentine's Day. You're coming to Alpy, right?

Rider weight isn't as important as where the pressure gets applied. Folks are figuring that out with sensitivities to ramp, mount point, etc as they relate to sidecut and flex. Praxis have more fwd mount points than some guys prefer.

Praxis Rx... baha, my favorite joke here now. Perfect example. That shape is like ten years old and has been far eclipsed. Bob repped it so consistently here that a bunch of folks went and bought some, including me! Trad camber, 32m radius, tip rocker only... sounded pretty ok as a big mountain ski! But the mount point puts you wayy too far forward on the effective edge, forcing you to steer from the heels and ass.

Some guys really jive with that; Tabke has a more neutral stance, which certainly affected his design input for the Rx, Q, etc. But it also perhaps explains why skiers with traditional backgrounds, racers, shin drivers, aren't keeping (all) their Praxis.

Cult classics excepted, as they build their own following out of performance rather than bandwaggoning. How many here have kept their Protests but sold their BC, Yeti, Piste Jib?

But I'm just an armchair dentiste

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You're downright dainty at 180. I don't get to the PNW much at all these days (let alone travel much), but WY/MT is a possibility this Winter. It's closer to me and doesn't rain as much there ;-)

Agreed about many of Keith's skis having Tabke's stance bias (something I don't get on with), but GPOs seem to accept going back 1.5cm without getting wonky. My main point wasn't to defend old designs so much as to comment that they may still have relevance (or provide a departure point for ongoing development). Yeah, sometimes you're best off by wiping the slate clean.

Basing a ski purchase on comments from folks on this forum (many of whom we've never skied with) is risky proposition (doh!), with the end result being a lot of skis on Gear Swap. I don't look at that as so much an indictment of the brand as an observation about the business model (capitalization to fund a demo fleet).

I got the impression that the Rx was more in the Freeride family, ant the pair of Freerides (heavy core) I picked up a few years ago whipped my ass in tight spaces. Because of this, I stayed away from it. If only I could have demoed. I'm batting 50% on my Praxis choices :eek:

... Thom