United Healthcare CEO shot to death in front of NYC investor meeting

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Originally Posted by MultiVerse

I mean, despite all your thunting you still came to the same conclusion as me:

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Your conclusions:

“A socialized system will declare advanced treatment not cost effective and phase it out

A lot insurance claim denials are for the most advanced most expensive treatment options that might not even be available at any cost in other countries. “

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^At no point did I come to these conclusions^

And your anecdotal story - that I had to explain to you - did not support those conclusions.

Those are my points. Vibes if you can’t wrap your head around them.

You may yet be able to back up your statements - but that global news story didn’t come close.

Now you're being even more pedantic. Nor did you "explain" anything. The Canadian surgeon told her she was not a candidate for surgery. In other words the advanced treatment that saved her life wasn't available to her in Canada

If you go to the doctor and have blood work and routine checkups every three months like I do, type II diabetic, that’s 4 office visits, I’d say on average 250 a piece = $1000, blood work 500 x 4 from fuckers at quest diagnostics, that’s $3000 usd, of preventive.

I pay $500 a month for my uhc plan.

So that leaves $3000 for the actual risk premium,. 250 approx a month.

Now first of all, your car insurance does not cover oil changes and tires it’s all risk premium. Why should it? So there needs to be a distinction between routine “maintenance” / healthcare, vs health insurance.

So, ask yourself, how much term life insurance would I get for 250 a month? You would not get 1mm, or two million, and you’re more likely to use the health insurance than have your wife hit the lotto on your 20 yr term. The limited term isn’t even being considered in the pricing, but it don’t help.

Lets not forget to mention the uninsured that go out enroll the month after they get cancer. You pay now.


Yes, the guy sold his soul to the devil, but this whole, wish he were dead, is out of control.

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Originally Posted by MultiVerse

Now you're being even more pedantic. Nor did you "explain" anything.

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Glad I could clarify things for you.

It’s ok to post your feelings and suspicions - just don’t market them like facts.

It's a pretty uncontroversial fact that one of the differences between the US healthcare system and most socialized healthcare systems is that the latter features a lot more rationing. Are you disputing that fact?

We're really talking about more stringent versus less stringent cost-benefit analysis. That's the point of what is just one of many examples:

“There’s a lot of promises I’m hearing. But, you know, we need boots-on-the-ground action right now. What can you do to shorten these wait times? How can you prioritize cases so that people with aggressive stage four cancer get seen by someone and when they do get seen, they get offered treatment and not MAID like I was the first time?”

MAID stands for medical assistance in dying

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Originally Posted by Cono Este

blood work 500 x 4 from fuckers at quest diagnostics

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you're doing that wrong walkinlab.com

Quest is actually fine, so is Labcorp, they're not the problem

This thread was way cooler before MV started deepthroating the boot he used to just lick.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

Counterpoint. And I'm not saying I believe the following but have thought about what I'm about to say. And I have a great amount of respect for docs and know some great people who are docs. I should probably ask them instead of you knuckleheads.

When is the last time you've heard a doc or hospital say "This is what you need, I'm trained in, but I'm just not going to do it"? I've heard plenty of "Sorry, your insurance company won't approve this procedure so we can't do it". Seems like saying we can do it but won't unless we get paid. Pharmaco..."We have a drug proven to be of major benefit in treating your condition but you can't have it until your insurance says so"...pay me or die bitches. Insurance companies don't administer care. Docs and hospitals do. Maybe they could just administer the care and then have their bloated hospital administration sue the insurance company for the money. If they provided life saving measures, seems like it would play well publically and the powers that be would have to side with the hospitals.

They all want paid but I'm not sure who is pulling the biggest string.

I'm with Otzi. Blow the whole thing up and start over. It needs to happen. And not replaced by the "concepts" being floated right now.

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I haven't spent years paying doctors and hospitals monthly premiums to guarantee they pay for my health treatments. If they do something to pay for or reduce my costs, it's charitable but we had no prior agreement. If an insurance company breaks it's agreement with me because they bet wrong and now don't want to pay up for my treatment... Fuck them. I'm ok with taking a proverbial ballpin hammer to the deadbeat denying/delaying my coverage.


Again, my bigger issue is with insurance companies automatically denying/delaying care as a matter of policy initially and only providing coverage upon appeal, if at all. It's theft, and what they are stealing is health/life.

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Originally Posted by MultiVerse

It's a pretty uncontroversial fact that one of the differences between the US healthcare system and most socialized healthcare systems is that the latter features a lot more rationing. Are you disputing that fact?

We're really talking about more stringent versus less stringent cost-benefit analysis. That's the point of what is just one of many examples:

“There’s a lot of promises I’m hearing. But, you know, we need boots-on-the-ground action right now. What can you do to shorten these wait times? How can you prioritize cases so that people with aggressive stage four cancer get seen by someone and when they do get seen, they get offered treatment and not MAID like I was the first time?”

MAID stands for medical assistance in dying

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You read a news article and now imagine that the surgeon who saw this patient (in a timely manner) thought to themselves “this surgery is appropriate and medically indicated in this patient - but I’m going to tell them they are not a candidate for it so that the system can save that money - that’s my decision”

And the on the flip side you somehow don’t think that what UHC is doing is in any way shape or form rationing care - instead you imagine they are only denying claims asking for special, expensive treatments that don’t even exist in socialized health care systems?

“The US is offering treatments not available in socialized systems! Proves socialized medicine effectively rations care!

Oh those treatments not available in socialized systems? Yeah UHC denies those claims. “

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Originally Posted by concretejungle

This thread was way cooler before MV started deepthroating the boot he used to just lick.

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I didn't say anything until we learned about the killer's politics. His politics are certainly not populist-coded and unless you're all in on Unabomber types then it's time to disavow him

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Originally Posted by bennymac

You read a news article and now imagine that the surgeon who saw this patient (in a timely manner) thought to themselves “this surgery is appropriate and medically indicated in this patient - but I’m going to tell them they are not a candidate for it so that the system can save that money - that’s my decision”

And the on the flip side you somehow don’t think that what UHC is doing is in any way shape or form rationing care - instead you imagine they are only denying claims asking for special, expensive treatments that don’t even exist in socialized health care systems?

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It's not like wait times in Canada are an isolated incident. And I don't know what the surgeon thought, neither do you. The point is she couldn't get care because the surgeon said no and she couldn't see an oncologist for months. She was offered medical assistance in dying, though.

And on the flip side WRT UFC that's why I called for more transparency when it comes to claim denials. I never said UHC wasn't rationing care, I said UHC rationed based on ability to pay

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Originally Posted by MultiVerse

I didn't say anything until we learned about the killer's politics. His politics are certainly not populist-coded and unless you're all in on Unabomber types then it's time to disavow him






I don't know what the surgeon thought and neither do you.

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So you have zero idea if it was a financially motivated decision to ration care to save the system money. But you went there.

Zero? The article plainly stated, "HIPEC is considered the standard for Ducluzeau’s cancer when possible but a letter from the BC Cancer Agency does not agree with this assessment"

Why do you think the BC Cancer Agency does not agree with performing HIPEC procedures? According to the article HIPEC is the standard in America but not Canada. Might that be an example of socialized system declaring advanced treatment not cost effective and phasing it out?

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Originally Posted by concretejungle

This thread was way cooler before MV started deepthroating the boot he used to just lick.

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came to say exactly this.

I think the extreme overhead caused by the middlemen factor in healthcare, and the market specific cost gouging by pharma, is why US healthcare costs are so high. It isn't payments to doctors, nurses and techs.

Most hospitals don't have shareholders because most are "non-profit." But I've come to learn that non-profit is a nebulous term in healthcare where for-profits can own non-profits and vice versa.

Insurance companies spend much of their costs trying to figure out how to charge more and pay less, including denials/lobbying/legal.

That forces hospitals and medical practices to spend a huge portion of their costs making sure they can get the insurance companies to pay including documentation/coding/compliance/billers/legal.

You basically cannot be a standalone medical practioner anymore as a doc, np, rn, pt, whatever unless you are cash only. You have to outsource your insurance/billing/appeals because the insurance companies have made it such a complex racket that it just gobbles time and resources.

Insurance companies don't care that they introduce massive inefficiencies into the system as long as by doing so, they make a profit.

That's where there is a MASSIVE burn. I bet between the sand that insurance company dumps in the healthcare gearbox and the gouging by pharma/pbm, that is probably 1/3 of every healthcare dollar spent in the USA.

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Originally Posted by MultiVerse

Maybe fewer doctors, maybe not. The AMA works hard to reduce the supply of doctors and also to limit the type of work nurses, PAs, and NPs can do.

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I don't think you are gonna find many other countries where RNs do more than in the US.

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Anesthesiology ... Their job can actually mostly be done by nurse techs

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What the fuck is a "nurse tech"?

Perhaps you meant CRNA, which is an anesthesia graduate degree prepared advanced practice nurse, typically fairly experienced in critical before their graduate program.

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Originally Posted by MultiVerse

It's not like wait times in Canada are an isolated incident. And I don't know what the surgeon thought, neither do you. The point is she couldn't get care because the surgeon said no and she couldn't see an oncologist for months. She was offered medical assistance in dying, though

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yeah we can get that up here too but I often wonder if less Amercians would try to kill themselves/ each other if life wasnt so desperate ?

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Originally Posted by MultiVerse

Zero? The article plainly stated, "HIPEC is considered the standard for Ducluzeau’s cancer when possible but a letter from the BC Cancer Agency does not agree with this assessment"

Why do you think the BC Cancer Agency does not agree with performing HIPEC procedures? According to the article HIPEC is the standard in America but not Canada. Might that be an example of socialized system declaring advanced treatment not cost effective and phasing it out?

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If true then by your own statements she (if she were American) would have been denied coverage for this special/expensive/not available in socialized systems by UHC after paying into it. Solid defense of status quo. You pretzeled yourself.

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Originally Posted by summit

I don't think you are gonna find many other countries where RNs do more than in the US.

What the fuck is a "nurse tech"?

Perhaps you meant CRNA, which is an anesthesia graduate degree prepared advanced practice nurse, typically fairly experienced in critical before their graduate program.

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I used tech as a laypersons catchall term for advanced practice nurse. The rules vary from state-to-state on what an advanced practice nurse can do. I'm arguing that nurses are capable of taking on more responsibility and achieving similar or even better outcomes at lower cost for certain types of things but are often restricted by law from doing so

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Originally Posted by bennymac

So by your own statements she (if she were American) would have been denied coverage through UHC after paying into it.

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No, not if HIPEC is considered the standard of care. My statements refer to hospitals overbilling and I even cited an academic journal. You should go read it

Snitches now need a pre-auth for their stitches.

https://www.vox.com/policy/390031/an...mits-insurance

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And the case for forcing down payment rates for anesthesiologists is especially strong. According to Medscape’s 2024 Anesthesiologist Salary Report, the average salary for an American anesthesiologist in 2023 was $472,000. This represented a $70,000 increase over the field’s average salary in 2022. This makes anesthesiologists among the top five highest-earning specialists in the United States.

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Originally Posted by MultiVerse

I used tech as catchall term for advanced practice nurse.

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In healthcare a "tech" is usually a lower level healthcare worker with a votech certificate or sometimes a 2 year degree.

I know. I have many, many health care workers in my family. I wrote it that way assuming some people might not know what a CRNA is. frorider's article is worth a read: "A big insurer backed off its plan to pay less for anesthesia. That’s bad."

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Originally Posted by MultiVerse

No, not if HIPEC is considered the standard of care. My statements refer to hospitals overbilling and I even cited an academic journal. You should go read it

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HIPEC surgery is available at 9 hospitals in Canada. Including in Vancouver.

Also available in Western Europe.

These pretzels are making me thirsty.

Speaking to my own experience, visiting a doc (not a PA or nurse…an actual doctor) in France is like going to an auto mechanic or any other service provider in the sense that the profession isn’t put on an exalted plane. On average they make 90k USD/yr in the sources I’ve read. My best friend in SoCal is making $500k doing ENT surgeries.

We don’t need to rehash all the work that’s been done to analyze our fucked system. There are many contributing factors. Insurance fuckers are part of the problem obviously.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...64ea4f4fc7.jpg

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Originally Posted by bennymac

HIPEC surgery is available at 9 hospitals in Canada. Including in Vancouver.

Also available in Western Europe.

These pretzels are making me thirsty.

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Well, if you want to argue the US has a lot more unnecessary healthcare and CRS and HIPEC is available in Canada but they are more selective then who's worse Canadian bureaucrats or American heath insurance companies?