Official Sprocket Rockets Training Thread

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian

Continue to build muscle and burn some more fat. Stubborn little belly while my arms/chest/back/legs have gained noticeable muscle mass over the past year of training.

I could possibly benefit from classic "train low and race high" in reference to carbs? I don't really know.

I think overall I could be eating cleaner and I need to cut out stupid "treats" like Noosa Yogurt for desert (those things are basically ice cream).

If stuff is written out I am can be pretty damn strict. It's when I wing it that I get myself into trouble.

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Low-carb is great for weight control and getting to a healthy weight, if the goal is to get lean a bodybuilder style cutting diet works better imo. High-protein, moderate carb, low-ish fat. An example meal is a lean protein (e.g. chicken breast, fish, ground turkey) with a starchy carb (white rice, potatoes) and vegetables (broccoli is the stereotypical BB veggie).

If your lifting program is something you just put together yourself consider finding a reputable written out program for you to follow. Low-intensity fasted cardio in the morning will help too.

And eliminating the junk will go a long way as you know.

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Originally Posted by bean

Low-carb is great for weight control and getting to a healthy weight, if the goal is to get lean a bodybuilder style cutting diet works better imo. High-protein, moderate carb, low-ish fat. An example meal is a lean protein (e.g. chicken breast, fish, ground turkey) with a starchy carb (white rice, potatoes) and vegetables (broccoli is the stereotypical BB veggie).

If your lifting program is something you just put together yourself consider finding a reputable written out program for you to follow. Low-intensity fasted cardio in the morning will help too.

And eliminating the junk will go a long way as you know.

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Ok thanks. My weight training is MTB specific written out by my coach.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian

Ok thanks. My weight training is MTB specific written out by my coach.

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What’s your program look like roughly? Some cycling coaches get it and some waste peoples time with a bunch of quarter squats and gimmick exercises.

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Originally Posted by bean

What’s your program look like roughly? Some cycling coaches get it and some waste peoples time with a bunch of quarter squats and gimmick exercises.

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RDLs, Bulgarian split squats, Chest presses, bear crawls, tricep pull downs, jumping lunges, box jumps, dips, pull ups, back squats, cable sidesteps, split stance front squats, ski erg machine sprints, rower sprints, bosu board planks, balance ball DB curls to press, bent over single arm DB rows, etc

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian

RDLs, Bulgarian split squats, Chest presses, bear crawls, tricep pull downs, jumping lunges, box jumps, dips, pull ups, back squats, cable sidesteps, split stance front squats, ski erg machine sprints, rower sprints, bosu board planks, balance ball DB curls to press, bent over single arm DB rows, etc

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nice.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian

RDLs, Bulgarian split squats, Chest presses, bear crawls, tricep pull downs, jumping lunges, box jumps, dips, pull ups, back squats, cable sidesteps, split stance front squats, ski erg machine sprints, rower sprints, bosu board planks, balance ball DB curls to press, bent over single arm DB rows, etc

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Dude I’m tired just reading about that

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian

I want to use this time to get my diet really dialed. It's not bad but it's not great. I've been gluten free for 5ish years, and think daily diet with even lower carb/sugar would really help me. Only eat carbs when I am training or racing?

Can anyone point me to a place with some simple meal plans written out? Eat this at this time on these days, etc.
k

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I feel like we've been down this road before, but I'll try again. Forgive the tone if it comes out harsh.

Low carb diets are for people who are not active and need to lose big amounts of weight. You are not that.

Gluten free diets are for people who have celiac disease. You don't, AFAIK. "Non celiac gluten sensitivity" is not a real thing, so don't make things hard on yourself by eliminating a huge range of foods that are very healthy.

I suspect you're still eating too much protein. 1.8g/kg/day is plenty unless you want to gain a lot of muscle (more than you need for bike racing). Carbs are not the enemy. Look at any successful endurance athlete's diet: it's mostly carbs.

As we've said before, you should eat normal size healthy vegetable-intensive meals and fuel the work you're doing (rides, weights) with simple carbs that are digestible while your HR is high. You can't digest much fat or protein once you're beyond Z2, and "fat burning" adaptations are mostly myth, and certainly not applicable to anyone doing intense exercise.

(Yes, i know that these are bold statements and that there is nuance, but I'm trying to keep it simple.)

You asked for a meal plan, so here goes. This is what has been working for me for a decade or more. I'm 64kg /175cm and low enough body fat that all abs are visible without flexing. I'm no DTM, but am at least as lean without the badass muscle mass. I am way more active than most even when not riding, and I spend many hours on my feet (contractor). I ride 15-20 hours a week.

Breakfast, around 0730: 1 cup coffee, homemade oatmeal mix 1c dry with hot water. Mix is 2 parts oats, 1 pt walnuts, 1pt raisins, 1/3 pt flaxseed meal. Top with 1T coconut oil, 1/2c homemade whole milk plain yogurt, 1/2c blueberries.

Lunch 1 around 1100: sandwich with big, thick homemade whole wheat bread, 4 slices cheddar, 1T mayo, apple or tomato slices, big pile of lettuce or spinach, and sometimes other condiments.

Lunch 2 around 1430: another sandwich OR riding food if I'm doing more than 2h that day.

Dinner around 1800: 1.5c cooked brown rice, 1.5c chickpea/lentil stew (homemade, Indian), pile of some vegetable dish.

Usually I'll eat a couple of pieces of fruit and a handful of almonds during the day. Sometimes I'll eat a chunk of Manchego and 8 or 10 olives as a snack. I also like pretzels.

I'm not vegetarian any more but never cook meat. When eating out (maybe 3x/month) I'll often order it.

I drink maybe 2 beers and 2 servings of whiskey a week (i recently dialed it back from maybe double that bc i find i sleep better with zero alcohol.)

Next post: what to eat while riding.

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Originally Posted by climberevan

I feel like we've been down this road before, but I'll try again. Forgive the tone if it comes out harsh.

Low carb diets are for people who are not active and need to lose big amounts of weight. You are not that.

Gluten free diets are for people who have celiac disease. You don't, AFAIK. "Non celiac gluten sensitivity" is not a real thing, so don't make things hard on yourself by eliminating a huge range of foods that are very healthy.

I suspect you're still eating too much protein. 1.8g/kg/day is plenty unless you want to gain a lot of muscle (more than you need for bike racing). Carbs are not the enemy. Look at any successful endurance athlete's diet: it's mostly carbs.

As we've said before, you should eat normal size healthy vegetable-intensive meals and fuel the work you're doing (rides, weights) with simple carbs that are digestible while your HR is high. You can't digest much fat or protein once you're beyond Z2, and "fat burning" adaptations are mostly myth, and certainly not applicable to anyone doing intense exercise.

(Yes, i know that these are bold statements and that there is nuance, but I'm trying to keep it simple.)

You asked for a meal plan, so here goes. This is what has been working for me for a decade or more. I'm 64kg /175cm and low enough body fat that all abs are visible without flexing. I'm no DTM, but am at least as lean without the badass muscle mass. I am way more active than most even when not riding, and I spend many hours on my feet (contractor). I ride 15-20 hours a week.

Breakfast, around 0730: 1 cup coffee, homemade oatmeal mix 1c dry with hot water. Mix is 2 parts oats, 1 pt walnuts, 1pt raisins, 1/3 pt flaxseed meal. Top with 1T coconut oil, 1/2c homemade whole milk plain yogurt, 1/2c blueberries.

Lunch 1 around 1100: sandwich with big, thick homemade whole wheat bread, 4 slices cheddar, 1T mayo, apple or tomato slices, big pile of lettuce or spinach, and sometimes other condiments.

Lunch 2 around 1430: another sandwich OR riding food if I'm doing more than 2h that day.

Dinner around 1800: 1.5c cooked brown rice, 1.5c chickpea/lentil stew (homemade, Indian), pile of some vegetable dish.

Usually I'll eat a couple of pieces of fruit and a handful of almonds during the day. Sometimes I'll eat a chunk of Manchego and 8 or 10 olives as a snack. I also like pretzels.

I'm not vegetarian any more but never cook meat. When eating out (maybe 3x/month) I'll often order it.

I drink maybe 2 beers and 2 servings of whiskey a week (i recently dialed it back from maybe double that bc i find i sleep better with zero alcohol.)

Next post: what to eat while riding.

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Ok thank you. Gluten gives me headaches and makes me feel dumb (dumber than normal).....I don't think you have to have "official" celiac to need to cut it out. I know for most people gluten is no problem.

I don't eat all that different from what you posted. I guess I need to skip the eggs in the AM and just do the oatmeal. I like your recipe. Looks tasty as hell.

I haven't been eating all that much meat recently because I didn't shoot an elk (yet) this year and the freezer is tapped out.

I probably need to be working out even more than I am. In reality I don't think 2x lifting, 2x trainer rides, and 3-6 ski days per week is actually that much. I usually hike on the ski days, but have done no touring yet this season.

Ok, riding food--AKA Fuel The Work.

This applies to any ride or workout that is over an hour long and harder than recovery pace. It's what works for me, but I have kind of an iron gut, so you may need to experiment. Basic quantities should be right, though.

Shoot for 90g of carbs/hr on hard rides, maybe less for Z2 rides. Maybe you can tolerate more, and if so, go for it. Big, fit people can certainly burn 200g/hr, but most can't digest that much.

Your body wants sugar when working hard. It's the only thing it can digest anyway. Fat and protein will just sit in the stomach and wait for the effort to drop, so don't eat them. Give the body sugar. Dextrose/maltodexrin and Fructose in water are good (most expensive sport drinks are 98% blends of those anyway), but plain table sugar (sucrose) is nearly as good and 1/3 the price. For solid food you want, you guessed it: fucking sugar. Not nuts, not protein; sugar.

To make it personal and detailed, yesterday I rode my gravel bike for 8 hours (7:14 moving time), which got me 81 miles and 12,156' of climbing. I was mostly in Z3 and Z4 to get the ride done in daylight. I burned 4169 kCal (quite accurate because I use a power meter). Since the ride took all day I missed lunches 1 and 2.

https://www.strava.com/activities/6602201214/

Here's what I ate, which certainly resulted in a calorie deficit but was the most I could get down. I rode for 3h today and felt just fine, so it wasn't too bad.

Normal breakfast.
During ride: 5 water bottles, each with 60g of sucrose; 2 nature valley granola bars, 2 homemade rice bars approx 180kCal each, 2 100kC Costco granola bars. Resupply at gas station: Snickers bar, 1/2 bag of popcorn, 2 handfuls of trail mix (split with GF), 1.5 packages S'mores Pop Tarts. So roughly 3000kCals on the ride.

I finished the ride a little hungry, but not ravenous, and feeling great. I ate an orange and some dry mango. About 20 mins after finishing I ate a somewhat bigger than normal serving of chickpeas and rice. We split a beer and had some hot chocolate before bed.

I hope some of this is helpful, and pardon the excessive detail for those of you for whom it isn't interesting.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian

Continue to build muscle and burn some more fat. Stubborn little belly while my arms/chest/back/legs have gained noticeable muscle mass over the past year of training.

I could possibly benefit from classic "train low and race high" in reference to carbs? I don't really know.

I think overall I could be eating cleaner and I need to cut out stupid "treats" like Noosa Yogurt for desert (those things are basically ice cream).

If stuff is written out I am can be pretty damn strict. It's when I wing it that I get myself into trouble.

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Evidence-based fat loss protocols: https://hubermanlab.com/how-to-lose-...e-based-tools/

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Originally Posted by climberevan

Breakfast, around 0730: 1 cup coffee
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Sometimes I'll eat a chunk of Manchego

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Huberman has cited some compelling evidence that it's best to delay caffeine intake until 2ish hours after waking, so I hold off on coffee until a little while after breakfast.

I seriously love Manchego. A slice of manchego between two hot corn tortillas is delish.

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

Evidence-based fat loss protocols: https://hubermanlab.com/how-to-lose-...e-based-tools/





Huberman has cited some compelling evidence that it's best to delay caffeine intake until 2ish hours after waking, so I hold off on coffee until a little while after breakfast.

I seriously love Manchego. A slice of manchego between two hot corn tortillas is delish.

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Cool thanks, and no coffee for two hours? I would rather just be dead.

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Originally Posted by climberevan

I suspect you're still eating too much protein.

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No such thing.

3.3g/kg/day, no fat increase: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27807480/

4.4 vs. 1.8 g/kg/day, no difference in fat or body comp: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pm...es/PMC4022420/

Protein calories are not the same as energy calories (fat, carbs, ethanol) and protein is converted to glucose as a last resort. "Protein is bad for your kidneys" is fake news.

You aren't getting anywhere near 1.8g/kg/day with the diet you're eating.

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

Evidence-based fat loss protocols: https://hubermanlab.com/how-to-lose-...e-based-tools/





Huberman has cited some compelling evidence that it's best to delay caffeine intake until 2ish hours after waking, so I hold off on coffee until a little while after breakfast.

I seriously love Manchego. A slice of manchego between two hot corn tortillas is delish.

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I heard about the caffeine and insulin response thing and tried waiting for a while before having coffee. I did it for about a week and noticed zero difference, so i went back to having coffee with breakfast. Honestly even if it's less than ideal I'm ok with it: i really, really love coffee in the morning and am willing to sacrifice some performance for it.

I think fidgeting for fat loss is likely the secret behind many of those (us) who are thin without trying. Some people are just always moving, even it it's just a little. Hours and hours a day of it add up.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian

Cool thanks, and no coffee for two hours? I would rather just be dead.

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Try to do at least one hour if possible. This is a gross oversimplification, but due to how caffeine functions via adenosine antagonism caffeine too early after waking interferes with your brain's "boot up" process. His top 3 recommendations for optimizing your circadian rhythm (which has *huge* effects on health and recovery) are:

1. Lots of bright outdoor light early in the morning as soon as possible after waking.
2. No, NO, bright light between 10 pm and 4 am.
3. Delay caffeine intake 2 hours after waking.

I think I vacillate too much between super active or barely moving. I'm either trying to shred, or sitting at my desk for 5 hours straight. I think I should invest in a better setup so that I can be on the computer while sitting on the trainer bike. So when working or just surfing TGR I can at least be pedaling a bit.

Back to the no coffee thing when waking up. I am going to experiment with straight out of bed onto the trainer bike for 30-40 minutes at Z2 and then eat breakfast after.

Edit to add: I have been drinking a scoop of magnesium powder before bed for about 2 weeks. Wow. I used to sleep great and now I sleep HARD for 8+ hours and sometimes don't even wake up once to piss. Awesome.

This time of year is tough up here as getting bright sunlight before 9am is a challenge. If I really get motivated I will go on a dawn patrol skin as many times a week as possible. Been too long since I have done that.

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Originally Posted by climberevan

I heard about the caffeine and insulin response thing and tried waiting for a while before having coffee. I did it for about a week and noticed zero difference, so i went back to having coffee with breakfast. Honestly even if it's less than ideal I'm ok with it: i really, really love coffee in the morning and am willing to sacrifice some performance for it.

I think fidgeting for fat loss is likely the secret behind many of those (us) who are thin without trying. Some people are just always moving, even it it's just a little. Hours and hours a day of it add up.

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You still get to drink coffee, just wait a little bit. Not an insulin thing. I covered the mechanism briefly in my last post. I also notice a stronger stimulant response from an equivalent amount of caffeine.

That episode I linked to cited studies showing 800-2,000+ kcals/day can be burned by fidgeting. Further, fat loss is initiated by the nervous system so consistent low-level muscular activation enhances the process. I intentionally fidget a lot.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian

I think I vacillate too much between super active or barely moving. I'm either trying to shred, or sitting at my desk for 5 hours straight.

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Yeah, not ideal. The genes that turn on fat oxidation shut off after about 1 hour of inactivity.

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Originally Posted by bean

No such thing.

3.3g/kg/day, no fat increase: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27807480/

4.4 vs. 1.8 g/kg/day, no difference in fat or body comp: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pm...es/PMC4022420/

Protein calories are not the same as energy calories (fat, carbs, ethanol) and protein is converted to glucose as a last resort. "Protein is bad for your kidneys" is fake news.

You aren't getting anywhere near 1.8g/kg/day with the diet you're eating.

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I should have written "more protein than necessary". I'm concerned that WG is susceptible to the pop culture obsession with "low carb" fad diets which don't work for anyone long term, and especially don't work for athletes.

I didn't say that there was a danger to eating too much of it, but I am skeptical that eating more than the widely accepted 1.4-1.8g/kg is beneficial for endurance athletes.

Both of those studies are on "resistance trained" people, not endurance oriented people. They also don't seem to say that eating than much protein is good--only that's it's not unhealthy. Are you saying that there is a BENEFIT to eating more than the above range for those who are NOT trying to gain muscle mass? If so, please explain, because runs contrary to everything else I've read and observed.

I haven't carefully added up my diet (though protein adds up fast, even in legumes and whole grains), and I never said I was aiming at 1.8 anyway. WG was asking for advice, and I specifically said that what I listed worked for me. ETA: I do sometimes eat a scoop of whey protein after a particularly big day or when I'm feeling a bit unrecovered. It seems to work, so maybe I am running a little deficit.

I won't rule out the possibility that I could benefit from more protein. What would that look like in the real world? Could I do yesterday's ride in only 6 hours? (I suspect that would mean an FTP increase of something like 20%, which would be pretty unbelievable.)

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

You still get to drink coffee, just wait a little bit. Not an insulin thing. I covered the mechanism briefly in my last post. I also notice a stronger stimulant response from an equivalent amount of caffeine.

That episode I linked to cited studies showing 800-2,000+ kcals/day can be burned by fidgeting. Further, fat loss is initiated by the nervous system so consistent low-level muscular activation enhances the process. I intentionally fidget a lot.

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Interesting. Maybe I'll give the "coffee after breakfast" another try. I was unaware of that concept of booting up the brain. But still, is it worth the cost? I don't drink coffee to wake up and do fine on days when I miss it. I just love the ritual of making it and really love the taste.

It sounds like WG could lose his extra pudge just from being a busybody. 5h at a desk is incredible to me. I don't have a desk job so I haven't had to face that, but it sure seems like that's the real challenge. What about a treadmill desk?

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Originally Posted by climberevan

Interesting. Maybe I'll give the "coffee after breakfast" another try. I was unaware of that concept of booting up the brain. But still, is it worth the cost? I don't drink coffee to wake up and do fine on days when I miss it. I just love the ritual of making it and really love the taste.

It sounds like WG could lose his extra pudge just from being a busybody. 5h at a desk is incredible to me. I don't have a desk job so I haven't had to face that, but it sure seems like that's the real challenge. What about a treadmill desk?

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Here's a bit more explanation behind the idea:

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CNsXxnU...dium=copy_link
https://podclips.com/c/XYG6UZ?ss=r&s...e&d=2021-07-21


A treadmill desk isn't really necessary. Just get up and move around for a few minutes every 30-60 minutes.

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Originally Posted by climberevan

I should have written "more protein than necessary". I'm concerned that WG is susceptible to the pop culture obsession with "low carb" fad diets which don't work for anyone long term, and especially don't work for athletes.

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Low carb works for plenty of people long term, and Zach Bitter set the 100-mile and 12-hour on HFLC. It's not ideal for a number of reasons but your bias against it is not-but-almost as bad as the "low carb is magic and the optimal way to eat for everyone and carbs are literally poison" people.

Protein is necessary for proper recovery and gainz, 1.8g/kg should be a baseline for athletes, and all athletes should lift weights. Better to overshoot a little bit, though going to 4.4 is comically high. I thought it was funny that a quarter of the group dropped out because they couldn't handle eating that much protein.

You should know that performance improvements are typically seen in the low single-digit % range when measured if at all, and effects from diet are often more in harder to measure things like mood, perceived fatigue, etc.

Again, i was intentionally oversimplifying. I would like to learn, though, what you think makes a traditional high carb diet dangerous for athletes. I'm not taking about people who work out 4 hours a week--I'm taking about people who are getting after it 12+hours a week. You say that my advocating for it is bad, so why is that so?

WG has said he's been eating low carb (and months ago told us more details), and has said repeatedly that he has things he wants to improve about himself. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that maybe that diet isn't working for HIM.

Certainly it's possible for some people to do HFLC, and Bitter seems to make it work. I would bet a 12 speed XT derailleur or some other unobtainable part that he represents a vanishingly small minority of high performance athletes. People love to trot out those examples, but the vast majority of athletes are eating a lot of carbs.

This is turning into a more contentious-feeling thing than I'd like. Please, everyone, know that I am here to learn as well.

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Originally Posted by climberevan

Again, i was intentionally oversimplifying. I would like to learn, though, what you think makes a traditional high carb diet dangerous for athletes.

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I said no such thing, please look again - I said your anti-low-carb advocacy is similar to the pro-low-carb zealots but to a lesser degree. Like I said I think WG is at the point where a shift to more carbs would be helpful for getting the last few pounds off. I'd recommend a gradual transition that way but, again, LC is great for unfatting yourself and for easy weight control, not getting really lean or maximizing performance.

FWIW I did various degrees of low-carb for about 2.5 years, and have gradually increased carbs over the last year and a half, and with currently eating pretty low-fat overall the bloodwork I get done ~annually is looking about as good as it ever has with records going back >10 years. I'm also leaner and overall-fitter than any point in my life despite having the extra years. BUT this is along side a relatively-high training volume so the carbs are actually being used as fuel instead of taking me for a ride on the insulin/glucose rollercoaster. I've said before that I recommend everyone try LC for at least a while and it's not just because I think it's magic - but it does offer a lot of insights and gets you in tune with your body better.

There's nothing like running a bunch of n=1 experiments to see what really works and doesn't.

For what it’s worth, many years at high training volume + being in the elite athlete world + being pretty up to speed on the newest science + having a nutritionist relative and a USA national team coach relative = the following beliefs for me:

None of fat, protein and carbs are evil. A balanced diet still works well there.

Get a ton of your carbs from veggies and as much of the rest from complex grains as you can. But it’s ok to cheat now and then if you are not trying to win a world championship. The benefits of a perfect diet over an excellent diet are very, very small.

Stay hydrated.

Eat enough protein. Super critical.

Things your great grandparents ate are a really good start.

The body can adapt to lots of diets. High protein, high carb etc. they might not be perfect but they will be ok. Except sugar. Sugar is poison in any large quantities.

Lift weights. Non negotiable.

Never underestimate the power of being active during the day. Sitting will crush your weight goals, your metabolism, your body functionality and your fitness. For a normal person there are three fitness stools: daily activity, exercise, lifting heavy things. You do all of those things you will be fit.

Eat a bit more than you need when building strength in the off season. During events be trim. But you can’t stay semi fasted like elite athletes are for their events year round. Neither can they. Can’t build enough strength in that state.

Don’t drink anything but water, weak hydration drink, recovery drink if you don’t wanna eat food, or alcohol if you like that. Nothing else. Ever. It’s shocking how many empty calories people drink. (Also I hate coffee but I know I’m nearly alone there.)

I just realized I could add another 20 of these but I’ll stop there.

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Originally Posted by bean

You aren't getting anywhere near 1.8g/kg/day with the diet you're eating.

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Just for lulz I entered everything in my "typical" daily list into an online nutrition calculator.

~2800 kCal

105g protein (1.64g/kg, right in the middle of the range I'm going for).

People often assume a vegetarian diet won't have enough protein, but it adds up faster than might be obvious from whole grains, nuts, greens, and legumes, and a significant amount of cheese and yogurt in my case.

Nonetheless, I'm going to add a serving of whey isolate every day for a few weeks to push the number to just over 2g/kg. Maybe it will be better, and the cost is minimal.