"All weather" tires in place of winter tires

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Originally Posted by auvgeek

I agree with your overall assessment. Studded hakkas vs Geolandar G015 aren't really a comparison, but the Geolandars do fine in snow. Especially if you're fine slowing down a bit. Ice and nasty icy slush are really where the studded Hakka shine, IMHO.

It's been mentioned before, but also consider that if you have an all-weather, you might be in the situation where the tread is fine for summer but not winter. So you might have to replace early. I noticed a definite drop off in snow/ice performance with the G015 after like 15-20k miles (or by the second winter, as was mentioned above), and we recently put our Hakkas on earlier than usual because the G015s are down to 4-5/32 and the snow traction was not great. I'd say it was worse than a new M+S in the snow at that point.

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Right, so an all weather could be used as a snow tire that hopes to get more mileage than a snow tire. But they are markerted as a year round tire. And what a horrible name all weather, who came up with that.

I got four good winters out of an x ice, not sure what I’m doing this winter yet.

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Originally Posted by 3PinGrin

gawd bless my locking rear differential

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But if you have a locking dif you likely have 4wd which would make the notion moot. This challenge requires a Camaro vs a Mustang.

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Originally Posted by Rideski

But if you have a locking dif you likely have 4wd which would make the notion moot.

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You have no idea what you are talking about.



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Originally Posted by Rideski

And what a horrible name all weather, who came up with that.

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I think it was nokian

@3pin- Tuco’s thought Was limited slip is bad on snow and ice. So I take that to mean a vehicle with rear wheel drive only. Because if 4wd, I don’t see how that comes into play.

Therefore if you had a rwd car with posi and one without you could have a real world test on ice.

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Originally Posted by Muggydude

I guess my point was, the tires have either 100% sticky compound, or if they are 50/50 they’re likely deeper tread depth than the competition, so the Rec for Blizzaks is relevant and not dependent on if they’re 50/50 tread or not

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Although tread depth is certainly an important factor, for Blizzak:
- WS has the 50/50, first 50 being super extra sticky mushy, then the next 50 is more like the competition's typical studless winter tires
- LM has only one tread material throughout the depth, and it's a more typical winter compound

So, for example, for here in southern New England, I put the Blizzak LM001 on my wife's Subaru Imprezza (and would have gone with the same for my VW Arteon, had not the Vredestein Wintrac Pro become available just in time last year), but I recommended a WS model for my brother in Lake Tahoe.

Couple links with more discussion:
https://blog.tirerack.com/blog/steve...0-and-the-lm60
https://www.bimmerfest.com/threads/b...-lm-60.818222/

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Originally Posted by Shorty_J

Huh... I thought they had 50% or 0%... not sure now.

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Correct.
At least for car tires -- I don't know about truck tires.
I suspect that if the WS tread was 100% (instead of 50/50) super extra wintery sticky throughout the depth then the tread squirm would be really horrendous.

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Originally Posted by Muggydude

Why would they have a snow tire that doesn’t have their dedicated winter tire compound that is excellent for snow and ice? That’s the whole point. They are winter tires, not all seasons or all terrain. They have soft winter compounds and siping, that offer much better traction in snow and ice than all seasons, at the expense of tread life due to the soft compound and siping.

I’m sure it’s evolved/changed over the years, and maybe varies somewhat model to model, but I highly doubt any of the blizzak variants offer anything but very good to excellent traction

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It's all a matter of tradeoffs: WS for the "studless winter tire" category vs LM for the "performance winter tire" category (which is the better choice where "winter" roads are far more frequently dry or wet -- alas -- than snowy or icy).

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Originally Posted by Rideski

@3pin- Tuco’s thought Was limited slip is bad on snow and ice. So I take that to mean a vehicle with rear wheel drive only. Because if 4wd, I don’t see how that comes into play.

Therefore if you had a rwd car with posi and one without you could have a real world test on ice.

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4wd can very well be 2wd if off camber/limited traction etc., a rear diff lock gives you both rear wheels working no matter what. I missed the test part though, my bad.

Often times people don't understand that 4wd isn't always all 4 wheels working even when engaged.

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Originally Posted by Jonathan S.

It's all a matter of tradeoffs: WS for the "studless winter tire" category vs LM for the "performance winter tire" category (which is the better choice where "winter" roads are far more frequently dry or wet -- alas -- than snowy or icy).

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We put some LM Blizzaks on the grocery getter (AWD) for this winter and I'll report back in spring how they did here in Montana. They're now scuffed in and so far so good.

I had all season on my Subaru and slid down a hill. Only thing that saved me was the snowbank or I would have slid into the hotel pool. I gave up all seasons as soon as I got back from that ski trip.

In terms of models the continental DWS was decent in town in snow and what I now use as my three season
They are three season for the most part.


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Originally Posted by Rideski

@3pin- Tuco’s thought Was limited slip is bad on snow and ice. So I take that to mean a vehicle with rear wheel drive only. Because if 4wd, I don’t see how that comes into play.

Therefore if you had a rwd car with posi and one without you could have a real world test on ice.

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At least in theory, a LSD should be all-the-time limited-slip, right? While most 4WD (not AWD) rigs are shifted between 4WD and RWD at the driver's discretion.

My XTerra had, in theory, a factory LSD and selectable 4WD. Like many things on that XTerra, though, the limited-slip feature had clearly worn out before I got it.

My Subaru has a LSD with a viscous coupling and true 50/50 torque. It’s not front or rear bias. My VW Alltrack is front bias but still works quite good especially with downhill assist engagements

My favorite add of all time

Attachment 347292


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Originally Posted by Rideski

@3pin- Tuco’s thought Was limited slip is bad on snow and ice. So I take that to mean a vehicle with rear wheel drive only. Because if 4wd, I don’t see how that comes into play.

Therefore if you had a rwd car with posi and one without you could have a real world test on ice.

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A traditional 4WD system with a rear locker could be used for this test. My experience with rear lockers in on road snow driving is that I don't want one. Aggressive LSD diffs would be similar (True Trac etc).

IMHO best possible on road snow AWD/4WD setup is a computer controlled AWD system that combines skid control, traction control, and torque vectoring. (And then put winter tires on it.) Best I've ever seen is Honda's SH-AWD. So, I'm back to wanting a Ridgeline, with the 2021 face-lift...

Honorable mention for full-time mechanical 4wd via a Torsen center differential (i.e. Land Cruiser, certain 4Runners, certain Land Rovers, MT FJ Cruiser).

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Originally Posted by El Chupacabra

A traditional 4WD system with a rear locker could be used for this test. My experience with rear lockers in on road snow driving is that I don't want one. Aggressive

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I don't use the rear lock for normal driving, but it can be the difference between walking out of the mountains (or spending hours getting unstuck) for off camber snowdrifts with a steep drop off / truck's at a steep angle (the kind where you are almost shitting your pants and pray you keep moving toward the far side), getting through a deep swale, sand, etc. I never keep it locked in except to get through tricky spots that I damn sure don't want to stop moving. There have been several times where it's the only way I could continue further.

Sometimes I miss my 68 chevy with a 327 and pizza cutters, all this traction control crap that people "think" they are turning off with the push of a button annoys the crap out of me. Reaching to lock in 4wd while in the cab on a shitstorm day makes me appreciate my F150 though. :)
(removed the running boards and that stupid front plastic spoiler thing under the bumper that just pushes snow/slows the truck when it gets deeper)

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Originally Posted by glademaster

Honorable mention for full-time mechanical 4wd via a Torsen center differential (i.e. Land Cruiser, certain 4Runners, certain Land Rovers, MT FJ Cruiser).

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For sure, I remember feeling unstoppable in my friend's Land Cruiser in high school.

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Originally Posted by 3PinGrin

Sometimes I miss my 68 chevy with a 327 and pizza cutters, all this traction control crap that people "think" they are turning off with the push of a button annoys the crap out of me. Reaching to lock in 4wd while in the cab on a shitstorm day makes me appreciate my F150 though. :)
(removed the running boards and that stupid front plastic spoiler thing under the bumper that just pushes snow/slows the truck when it gets deeper)

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I feel the same way about missing my old 97 F250 with a mechanical rear LSD.

Funny you say that about the air dam, I had mine off since the week I bought it but put it back on because I'm driving a ton of highway miles for the next 6 months. Was definitely plowing snow with it this week lol.

Attachment 347300

And I agree in respects to an e-locker out back. Useful for getting through really nasty shit, but in general not what you want on icy roads.

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Originally Posted by snowaddict91

Funny you say that about the air dam, I had mine off since the week I bought it but put it back on because I'm driving a ton of highway miles for the next 6 months. Was definitely plowing snow with it this week lol.

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Yeah when I got my first F150 and was in deep snow on USFS roads couldn't figure out why the hell the front end felt like it was getting pushed around. Definitely would have left it on for highway driving though. Well developed road driving is all most people use their truck for anyway, ha. Well, probably not as much the case for TGR folks, but generally speaking. First time I cut a load of wood and was throwing it in the back of the F150 it was denting the hell out of the bed and had to have it sprayed with a bedliner to prevent that, was like WTF has happened to trucks????

Can't link it but in the 'open vs limited slip in winter driving' thread on jeepforum.com there are plenty who have felt the exact same as I. You lose lateral control with both tires spinning on the same axle. Around corners and off camber shit. My buddy had a 75cj5 with factory lsd and that fucker was sketchy as hell. I've been in the damn thing going up BCC. One tire spins around a corner, the other then engages( both spinning) and it's instant donut.

Anyone else checked out the budget priced Falken Winterpeak F-Ice?

new this year so no meaningful reviews out there.

Getting winter rims/tires for the wife's VW atlas as this will be the first winter for it. I had planned on going with the same Blizzaks i run on my F150 (DM-V2) but her vehicle will see far less snow as my truck is the usual family ski-mobile but she does drive up separately enough that i dont want her on the summer oriented all-seasons that came stock on the Atlas.

Falkens are a steal at $54 less per tire than the Blizzaks. Honestly, I'm tempted to save the $220 given her use profile.

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Originally Posted by tuco

Can't link it but in the 'open vs limited slip in winter driving' thread on jeepforum.com there are plenty who have felt the exact same as I. You lose lateral control with both tires spinning on the same axle. Around corners and off camber shit. My buddy had a 75cj5 with factory lsd and that fucker was sketchy as hell. I've been in the damn thing going up BCC. One tire spins around a corner, the other then engages( both spinning) and it's instant donut.

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A lot of this has to do with wheelbase. I can confidently say I could drive a CCLB with a welded rear diff anywhere without dying. A CJ5 I'd probably die the first slick turn. We are talking a 5' plus difference in wheelbase which is apples to oranges.

Not so sure of wheel base theory. In my experience you need weight over those rear tires as well. I still have a cclb

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Originally Posted by tuco

Not so sure of wheel base theory. In my experience you need weight over those rear tires as well. I still have a cclb

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Actually, the more I think about this, I'll defer to your experience. My cclb has been OOS for a few years. I'm not even sure if it has lsd(it's possible)and if it does it was burnt before I got it.

Yeah, kind of like how backing up with a long trailer is way easier than a really short one. I do get the lateral slide concern, but the trade off is often worth it. I was in a touch and go situation today and had to back out on the road a ways when it got slick as hell with occasional watermelon size rounded rocks. There was a deep rocky rut on the left side. I probably would have slid into it locked or unlocked so just let it happen, but once I was in it I hit the accelerator because it got nasty and was worried about high centering. Both rear wheels kept churning and I bounced out of that fucker without damaging anything other than some paint scraping from a small tree. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been able to get out as easily without the locker (ie. stuck and digging). Ruts are perfect for a locking diff because you definitely aren't going to slide sideways, ha.

Definitely should have deployed chains for that one, derp. Although after backing out and parking in a different spot then travelling on foot cross country with the dog to get back to the same road realized in there were numerous trees down blocking the road not too far above where I got to. Girls say boys is stoopid but,

https://youtu.be/7rq9OvaJyRc?t=11

Yeah, I can see it for shit like that. Still though, for general road driving, your tires will make the biggest difference.