Electric Bike Thread

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Originally Posted by Lvovsky

Polygon is releasing two trail ebikes. Good prices. Very tempting. I’ll rider further but they won’t free up time to make me ride more often. Needs to come with a babysitter

https://www.polygonbikes.com/siskiu-te/

Prices here https://www.bikesonline.com/2023-pol...mountain-ebike

They changed the geometry from their standard mnt bikes. The dimensions are a little bit different than my T8.

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Those are real bikes for only a few hundred over BikesDirect prices. They fixed the old-school geometry of their acoustic bikes, too.

About the price discussion: acoustic bike prices have dropped more than e-bike prices. Ebikes are still newish, and there is still a lot of pent-up demand that only gets released as prices slowly drop and people figure out that anti-ebike rules are only enforced in a few tourist places.

(Here in Tahoe, roughly 15% of bikes I see on the trail are electric, and that percentage has increased every year -- despite the USFS ignoring their own research that showed zero adverse impact from ebikes and banning them nearly everywhere. Just like the most common way to get new legal MTB trails is to build them illegally and force the USFS to acknowledge them, the way to legalize ebikes will be to continue riding them everywhere and force the USFS to acknowledge them.)

At this point, the main thing that will make ebike prices drop farther is if our fearless leaders can destroy the US economy before they also destroy the dollar's value worldwide. Unfortunately the second generally follows the first.

Now we're talking: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-...ve-system.html

Yeah, now it just needs to be put in a bike by a brand that doesn't do headset routing.

Wow, I figured internal gear box/ e- motor was gona happen somewhat like this, I expected fewer gears with more power to compensate figuring the amount of gears they could line up in a motor case would be the limit but there is a 12 spd model

That looks pretty sweet. I think the ebike use case with electronic shifting solves most of the problems I have with gearboxes.

Doesn't sound like it'll land in North America for a couple years though.

I have an Orbea Rise. Dig it.

Rode a 2023 Orbea Wild the other day at an Orbea demo day.

That was a mistake.

The Wild rules. Tons of squish, tons of electric power, motor felt great, slacker and way more descent-oriented than the Rise (which is no slouch). The Wild felt more refined and brawnier at the same time.

I had concluded my Orbea Rise was probably gonna be for sale soon...but then I looked at PinkBike. Eesh. Used market is tough for sellers! Should I roll with it for another couple years? Or sell it now??

Swapped on a Mezzer fork, Float X shock, 203 rotors with 4-piston calipers, an offset bushing to slack it out a bit more, and a range extender. Otherwise, stock.

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Originally Posted by toast2266

Doesn't sound like it'll land in North America for a couple years though.

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Yeah, 2025 for the US version. That's fine with me. A new bike won't be in my budget for a while and I'm happy to give them a few years to "beta" test, refine the power modes, get it onto frames that have actual US distribution, and hopefully see some more advances in battery tech.

800 g reduction in unsprung weight on the rear axle!


ETA: I'm also happy to give the access/policy issues a few more years to shake out, and for bike companies to dwindle their non-e offerings down to the point where buying a non-e bike isn't even a realistic option.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/212704...ibextid=Nif5oz

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

Now we're talking: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-...ve-system.html

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Looked great until I read that it’s using the gates belt drive system…. Same thing that’s plagues the Specialized e-bikes. Have seen way too many of those belts fail on the trail.

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Originally Posted by Gunder

Looked great until I read that it’s using the gates belt drive system…. Same thing that’s plagues the Specialized e-bikes. Have seen way too many of those belts fail on the trail.

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That's a different belt made by a different company in a different part of the drivetrain. Hardly seems comparable. It's not like there's some fundamental deficiency in belts (see, for example: pretty much every snowmobile).

But that aside, it says the pinion motor / gearbox works with either chains or belts.

If nothing else, a proliferation of belts would finally make the queso people shut the fuck up.

From a casual observer, non engineers standpoint integrating motor and gearbox seems to make a lot of sense.
Going to be interesting to see the reaction of the big legacy drivetrain makers.
Unless I’m mistaken shimano makes e-bike motors and gearboxes so surely they’ve been working on something like this in the background too.
What about sram though - do they have all these pieces under their corporate umbrella/brand portfolio already or will they try to buy it and kill it to protect their legacy business?

Unconfirmed rumour that husky/ktm/gasgas group purchased sram. Sram has a unreleased motor ready for market. Husky, ktm, abd gasgas have veen on a very quick developement program fo where theyre all at the top level in design and kinematics. If they have pudchased sram id expect more rapid developement

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Originally Posted by grinch

Unconfirmed rumour that husky/ktm/gasgas group purchased sram. Sram has a unreleased motor ready for market. Husky, ktm, abd gasgas have veen on a very quick developement program fo where theyre all at the top level in design and kinematics. If they have pudchased sram id expect more rapid developement

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That'd be interesting. Seems like the KTM group is trying to move into a more electric realm (both ebikes and battery powered motorcycles), so that could kinda make sense.

Just from googling, it'd be a big buy for them though. ~$2.1B revenue buying ~$800M revenue.

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Originally Posted by toast2266

That'd be interesting. Seems like the KTM group is trying to move into a more electric realm (both ebikes and battery powered motorcycles), so that could kinda make sense.

Just from googling, it'd be a big buy for them though. ~$2.1B revenue buying ~$800M revenue.

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Public traded Swiss parent company Pierer Mobility AG with market cap of 2.5bn CHF who also happen to own Felt bikes so certainly possible but would expect some public disclosure if true.

my son has been riding a commuter with a belt drive for 5 yrs with no problems, it has a split in the triangle to allow the belt to be replaced but no problems, I didnt see a way to replace the belt on the pinion

the timing belt on billions of engines last 120K kms

maybe bosch under designed their belt ?

https://youtu.be/-MBaP4PZpKY

a 15min presentation with the pinion guy

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Originally Posted by toast2266

That'd be interesting. Seems like the KTM group is trying to move into a more electric realm (both ebikes and battery powered motorcycles), so that could kinda make sense.

Just from googling, it'd be a big buy for them though. ~$2.1B revenue buying ~$800M revenue.

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Ya im not sure on that rumour but i did see the latest gas gas bike proto has a sram motor that looks like it has a little extra in the size dept. Really nice looking bike. Horst link with plenty of SO. Maybe the rumour just got twisted after they went with a sram motor. I wouldnt be surprised on a full aquistion though

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Originally Posted by toast2266

That's a different belt made by a different company in a different part of the drivetrain. Hardly seems comparable. It's not like there's some fundamental deficiency in belts (see, for example: pretty much every snowmobile).

But that aside, it says the pinion motor / gearbox works with either chains or belts.

If nothing else, a proliferation of belts would finally make the queso people shut the fuck up.

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All of the replacement belts I’ve installed for friends had Gates printed right on them. I’d way rather have a full gear system with a spraug clutch than one with a belt drive in it. Even if the belt drives are quieter.

The difference with a sled is that it’s field changeable. You are not tearing into an e-bike motor unit to change the belt mid ride.

The biggest issue with the shimano system at present is the undersized charge port connectors breaking due to contamination. The large Bosch ones are way superior.


I am curious to see what SRAM ends up with.

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Originally Posted by Gunder

All of the replacement belts I’ve installed for friends had Gates printed right on them. I’d way rather have a full gear system with a spraug clutch than one with a belt drive in it. Even if the belt drives are quieter.

The difference with a sled is that it’s field changeable. You are not tearing into an e-bike motor unit to change the belt mid ride.

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The belt in the Pinion system is field changeable too. There's no internal belt - it's just the normal gates belt in place of a chain. Tons of bikes have been using that system for years.

It seems like the issue with the brose belts, as much as anything, is that they're concealed so you can't see if they're starting to look worn. From what I've read, those belts will start to fray a bit and then eventually fail. If you catch them when they're just starting to fray, you can replace them and be fine. But no one catches them since you have to take the whole drive unit apart to see the fraying. None of that is the case with the pinion system - if the belt is starting to go, you just put a new belt on, which is only slightly more complicated than putting a new chain on.

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Originally Posted by toast2266

The belt in the Pinion system is field changeable too. There's no internal belt - it's just the normal gates belt in place of a chain. Tons of bikes have been using that system for years.

It seems like the issue with the brose belts, as much as anything, is that they're concealed so you can't see if they're starting to look worn. From what I've read, those belts will start to fray a bit and then eventually fail. If you catch them when they're just starting to fray, you can replace them and be fine. But no one catches them since you have to take the whole drive unit apart to see the fraying. None of that is the case with the pinion system - if the belt is starting to go, you just put a new belt on, which is only slightly more complicated than putting a new chain on.

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I went back and re- read the article. When I first read it it sounded like they where using an internal belt, but after looking at the motor more closely they clearly are not. Could be a good system.

I agree with the issue of the internal specialzed belts. The other issue is the torque value to set the tension on those is stupid low so it’s quite easy for the tension to come out of spec while riding also causing premature failure.

I just replaced the shitty NX chain that came on my Levo last night. According to the motor, it had 599 miles on it. It didn't break, but it was failing the 0.5 wear test with a chain checker. When I laid out a new X01 chain next to it, the amount of "stretch" due to worn out rollers was significant, about half a link over the length of the chain.

I'd love to get a belt drive version of the MGU, assuming it was on a bike without a solid rear triangle (i.e. no Santa Cruz). Horst link would be fine. Not having to lube my chain every ride in the winter and not having the sound of chainslap year round sounds pretty great to me.

Belts inside the motor are a different story. My buddy has his Levo at the shop, trying to get his 3rd motor under warranty in 1,800 miles. From what I understand, the main issue with the Brose motors are that unless the tolerances on the belts are really good, they start to wear and rub, getting progressively louder and draggier. Mine seems to be noisier, but it's hard to quantify. I *think* I'm getting less range than before, but neither is really anything that I can take to a shop and say, "this is fucked up, I need a new motor under warranty" yet.

Also, anyone who buys a used ebike with no warranty is crazy IMO. I wonder when the brands are going to start making motor warranties transferable to at least second owner.

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Originally Posted by Gunder

I went back and re- read the article. When I first read it it sounded like they where using an internal belt, but after looking at the motor more closely they clearly are not. Could be a good system.

I agree with the issue of the internal specialzed belts. The other issue is the torque value to set the tension on those is stupid low so it’s quite easy for the tension to come out of spec while riding also causing premature failure.

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Yeah, those brose belts seem like they have a couple of problems. I think they've also switched from fiberglass belts to carbon belts now. I haven't heard of quite as many people breaking them, so maybe that helped a bit.

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Originally Posted by toast2266

Just from googling, it'd be a big buy for them though. ~$2.1B revenue buying ~$800M revenue.

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hold up. SRAM does 800m rev globally? i figured they'd easily be in the bn club.

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Originally Posted by westoxified

i figured they'd easily be in the bn club.

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https://imageio.forbes.com/specials-...jpg&width=1200

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Originally Posted by westoxified

hold up. SRAM does 800m rev globally? i figured they'd easily be in the bn club.

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I'm just going off of the googles. They're not publicly traded, so tough to come up with actual numbers, but most of the hits put them between $700M and $900M.

I dunno, that seems about right. They don't really do much super low end stuff (like walmart level or below), and the high end bike market isn't that big.

Shimano's numbers are easier to come by - looks like they did $4.7B in 2022, but that includes a bunch of non-bike stuff (fishing, etc.). And Shimano also does way more low end products than sram does.