Antiwork

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Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles

So if you are that guy or girl that gets that the fact that ass kickers get paid, stand tall and go git ya sum. If not, well we've got work to do in this country in terms of outlining your life. Because "comfy life" is circling the drain for those that just keep it in second gear.

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Dana white is a bit of a loudmouthed douchebag, but, he does have a pretty decent underlying point here, IMO. Its really easy to get ahead compared to your peers now, simply by working hard- something that was just culturally expected in the generations prior and didnt set you apart. Now, it will, and it does IME. But, and here is the key, for many people the juice isnt worth the squeeze and so they are happy getting less juice. The problem comes when folks feel entitled to a ton of juice, without squeezing.

(and yes youll have to get over the alpha male/gungho thematics of the video to get the general point).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZZw8bOk738

The thing is, its not binary. You can be anti bullshit, fuck Lumberg um kay, and pro pay for performance, cut the fat, master of your own destinty.

But if you are antiwork, to me, thats antipaycheck.

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Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles

You can be anti bullshit, fuck Lumberg um kay, and pro pay for performance, cut the fat, master of your own destinty.

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Agreed, and you should be. But if you are going to work 40 good hours/week with a HARD cutoff at 40, dont be surprised if jenny-dogooder who works a hard 45-50hrs/week gets that promotion you wanted. I have younger staff who is surprised. Its almost like some folks think the workplace is like school where if you get a passing grade, you continue on to the next grade/job title, and thats just not how it works.

IMO the key to happiness/success in the workplace is to know your value and not be afraid to leverage it, and to always be assessing if the juice is worth the squeeze.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

Agreed, and you should be. But if you are going to work 40 good hours/week with a HARD cutoff at 40, dont be surprised if jenny-dogooder who works a hard 45-50hrs/week gets that promotion you wanted. I have younger staff who is surprised. Its almost like some folks think the workplace is like school where if you get a passing grade, you continue on to the next grade/job title, and thats just not how it works.

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While you're correct in principle, what is depressing however is witnessing the reality of how SO many people somehow seem to fail upward. True from corporations to politics. Not that I'll let that stop me from pressing forward and working my ass off to get ahead, but I'm not gonna lie. It stings a little when you see it happen around you over and over again.

Much as I want to believe it's all about hard work and grit (and it absolutely IS for us regular folk), I've noticed that being connected to the right people seems to matter a helluva lot more. Nepotism seems to be the key to REAL, big money success. Haha. We've all seen too many absolute imbeciles in the C-suite to believe otherwise. It's goddam painful sometimes when you, your team, and maybe even great middle managers, are all held back in an organization despite stellar performance and bringing in record profits for them, just for them to hire some jackoff they knew from their frat as your new VP, who knows NOTHING about your industry or business, and then proceeds to drive your company into the ground right before your very eyes. And then watch them get hired right over again in another company because "Hey! Executive experience!" and of course they happen to know someone. This is it but one personal experience of many, but is perhaps the most relatable since we've all seen so many great companies get wrekt over the years due to executive incompetence.

It’s like you’ve never even heard of the Peter principal.

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Originally Posted by Bunion 2020

Only because I am in high demand and have little to no competition.

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That's awesome. How did you get into your line of work anyway if you don't mind me asking? You're right. It's VERY specific, so I'm curious how you (A) identified the need to begin with, and (B) were able to enter the field to address the need. Also interesting how you were able to fly under the radar! That was one of the BIGGEST mistakes I've ever made in business was bringing attention to myself. I thought that it was necessary to hustle and grind, advertise, etc. to get my name out there to land the work, but instead it got a target painted on my back. I could write a book about hard lessons learned. What NOT to do with an ambitious startup company. Haha.

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Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles

Fuck. No doubt my small contracting business is an HR nightmare. I mean, I fire myself atleast once a week and I don't even have a manilla folder with my name on in.

On of the many reasons that I don't have employees anymore is that compliance is really expensive. I just felt so frequently that a was hustling for my guys paycheck. Hence why I think, at least in the trades, IC is the future. If you are something better than the bottom of the barrel shit bag, it is better for everyone. On balance, more money goes is the pockets of those that actually get shit done versus the government(s), accountants, attorneys and so on.

So many employees are milkers. No awareness around their number job being to make the business money. I always provided a path forward with raises, training, tool purchase program, very flexible schedule and so on. My good guys became ICs and some of them bid work back to me which was the goal. 80% became somebody else's problem.

So yeah, their are 2 sides to the "Anti Work" conversation. Everyone loves a hustler, most people don't want to hustle. So if you are that guy or girl that gets that the fact that ass kickers get paid, stand tall and go git ya sum. If not, well we've got work to do in this country in terms of outlining your life. Because "comfy life" is circling the drain for those that just keep it in second gear.

Looks for a government or corporate job. Try and be on time, don't rock the boat, don't bitch too loud in the lunch room and cross your fingers. Maybe you'll get to go skiing weekends on your time off.

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that’s fairly one-sided isn’t it?


not everybody has the same life goals as you.

sometimes going along to get along, works out just fine.


i’ve been on both sides of that fence. I had my own business for a good long time. Made a shit load of money doing it too. Set my own hours and all that kind of bullshit. or so I told myself.

in reality, I was working minimum 60 hour weeks and usually 80 hours or more. Had enough work to work my own ass off, but not enough to support a lot of other people working in their asses off.

cashed out and banked it. Hooked up with the reasonable slow life on the canal. Work to the terms of the contract and no more. Occasionally show up late for work and always be rockin’ that damned boat ….

yet, I still get to leave on time. At the end of my day I don’t have to worry about any of my shit until I get back onto the next shift. Got no problem finding time to go skiing. Got so much fucking leave time backed up I can go skiing for several months without even putting a dent in it. promotions still come along as the people above me die. pretty soon these fuckers are going to pay me to stay home from work.


all in all, I think that’s pretty good fucking deal.



Attachment 488316




fact.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

Yep, we have to document an initial meeting between employee and managment about performance/issues, put them on a 6 week improvment plan, and only then can we fire them. We did that with someone once, and on the very last day of his improvement plan he went to HR claiming mental health issues and took a paid extended leave for another couple months, at which point we apparently had to go through the whole rig amoral a second time to get his ass out of there. But he had it coming- produced shitty work, how late he showed up became a joke as the over under was noon (for a 8-5 job). etc.

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LOL - Yes, we had something very similar happen in our Cypress, CA office. She was actually a pretty high performer when she first came on board but then the work load got to her and she went downhill. She pulled the mental health card and it was several months on short term disability under Calif. labor laws. Then she came back at the same salary but reduced responsibilities. That rubbed people the wrong way. Took another year before she finally was pushed out. Everyone in the office, which was only about a dozen people resented her. So, the work place environment was a bit toxic towards her to say the least.

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Originally Posted by m2711c

It’s like you’ve never even heard of the Peter principal.

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Oh yeah!!! That explains SO much! Then there's the inverse to that, which is that the most competent, hard working people are also intentionally held back because they're too good at their jobs to let leave their current station. The incompetent leadership doesn't dare promote the very people who are making them look good in the board meetings. Kinda screwed up when you think about it!

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Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

Oh yeah!!! That explains SO much! Then there's the inverse to that, which is that the most competent, hard working people are also intentionally held back because they're too good at their jobs to let leave their current station. The incompetent leadership doesn't dare promote the very people who are making them look good in the board meetings. Kinda screwed up when you think about it!

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You seem to think that if you do your literal job description and nothing else that you should get promoted. This is career/job 101- if you want to move up then you need to show you are capable of taking on that next role, AND you need to make sure there is someone who can step in and fill your old roll. This means you need to make sure you are mentoring and training up your direct reports.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

This is career/job 101- if you want to move up then you need to show you are capable of taking on that next role, AND you need to make sure there is someone who can step in and fill your old roll. This means you need to make sure you are mentoring and training up your direct reports.

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While you're absolutely correct in an ideal world, too often the Peter Principle is a very real thing. Even worse in the C-Suite where sheer incompetence can reign supreme and if you as a manager dare speak up then there will be hell to pay. Some of the higher ups do NOT like being told that they're less than gods, and there might be some issues they need to address.

But, yes. I 100% believe in training up, mentoring, and empowering your next in succession! I like seeing EVERYBODY on an upward trajectory.

I’d rather see ‘em on the slopes…. though, not all at the same time.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

I had this conversation with one of my staff who was very indignant about not getting the same promotions/pay as one of my other staff. The indignant one logs on at 915ish, off at 430ish, walks his dogs and takes a long lunch, separately, puts in minimal effort on QAQCing his own work, and generally does C+/B- work. The other works remotely from all over the world, but is online at 7, off at 4-430, always available during the workday, does great detailed work, actively solicits general knowledge from her superiors and is a stud.

It's fine to be anti work... Just don't be surprised when you fall behind harder workers.

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Lots of people "work hard" or put in lots of hours, but still don't produce.

In your example (which hits way to close to home), the fastest way you can burn out the good employee is by having the poor employee produce some deliverable the good employee needs to stay on schedule or incorporate to other work only to find that it's late or requires significant rework and fail to adequately manage the poor employee. At least for me, it doesn't matter if you promote or reward me for good performance, if you stack the stress of working with someone who is making my work life harder I'm going to bail. I really struggle to work for managers and organizations that won't address poor performance.

I'm still anti-work in the sense that if I had enough money there is no way I would work.

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Originally Posted by oldnew_guy

Lots of people "work hard" or put in lots of hours, but still don't produce.

In your example (which hits way to close to home), the fastest way you can burn out the good employee is by having the poor employee produce some deliverable the good employee needs to stay on schedule or incorporate to other work only to find that it's late or requires significant rework and fail to adequately manage the poor employee. At least for me, it doesn't matter if you promote or reward me for good performance, if you stack the stress of working with someone who is making my work life harder I'm going to bail. I really struggle to work for managers and organizations that won't address poor performance.

I'm still anti-work in the sense that if I had enough money there is no way I would work.

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Personally, I think shit should flow uphill and if someone isn't pulling their weight, then I need to adjust my timelines/schedules... Or I need to step in and pick up their slack. It should NOT fall solely on their peers to pick up the slack, though inevitably some of it will.

Imo, when there is a weak link and powers that be refuse to address it (additional hires, or firing and then hiring someone better), you have two realistic longterm choices: adjust output expectations accordingly, or find somewhere else to work.

But the firm I "grew up" in was different than most. We all valued play more than work and knew and acted like work was a means to our other ends. Perspective was typically kept and burnout was actively and consciously avoided by mgmt.

I am just so glad I worked in a commission sales field for my career. If I worked hard, my checks reflected that effort. After about 10 years, I figured out the sweet spot and worked about 30 hours a week and still had a comfortable life for the most part. Sure, there were the occasional periods where business sucked for 18-24 months, but we survived until it came screaming back again. Bosses were always happy to see me, no one fucked with me and it wasn't until the last few years of working for a company that I had to deal with the annual review BS. Once I went self employed that annoyance was gone too.

I always told my girls your time is money. Do something that pays $100 an hour rather than $25.

https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/...1091x1074.jpeg

https://youtu.be/xNWhiXxdbWk?si=ALbwL0armu--AmIW

Think this may have been mentioned somewhere here already, but this one is classic and sadly representative of modern hiring practices.
https://twitter.com/tiangolo/status/1281946592459853830

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Originally Posted by Sebastián Ramírez on Twitter

@tiangolo

I saw a job post the other day. ??????

It required 4+ years of experience in FastAPI. ??????

I couldn't apply as I only have 1.5+ years of experience since I created that thing. ??????

Maybe it's time to re-evaluate that "years of experience = skill level". ?
8:40 AM · Jul 11, 2020

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While not quite THAT egregious, I too have suffered that with an HR dolt I interviewed with. They said their client was demanding 10+ years experience in what is pretty much new territory. When she told me I wasn't going to be a good fit and didn't want to waste either of our time, I attempted to save it by letting her know that what they were seeking likely didn't exist but how my background aligns precisely with the needs of the role. Hell, overqualified if anything. Didn't matter. She said hiring manager made it clear they had to be firm on the years+ in said (new) and yet to even be proven tech. WTF? And then corporate America is like "NoBOdy WanTS to WOrK ThesE DaYS!!!" Then I saw an article from MIT talking about exactly what I was pursuing and you know what? Apparently NOBODY has successfully done it yet. It's in its infancy and is still in the experimental/proof-of-concept phase. Yeah, good luck hiring for that then with said unicorn requirements, morans. :nonono2:

A friend in the industry I'm trying to break into passed along a job posting to me, but I had to laugh at its lofty "requirements" (NOT 'desired' criteria):
-BS in Renewable Energy / Masters in Engineering
-AND an MBA
-10+ years leading major utility scale projects
The list goes on, but those were my favorites. Sheeit. By the time you get through all that schooling and work experience, you're gonna be retirement age! This isn't even for that lofty of a position!

What I'm finding funny though is how for lower positions, companies keep wanting candidates who have a million years of proven, related experience (which I actually do have). Fine, fine. Whatever. BUT, when it comes the C-Suite, the executives in CHARGE of these major companies bounce around industries all the time. Often not having a goddam clue about ANYTHING of the field they're now running a company for. Often with catastrophic results. But when those guys burn a company to the ground, lighting billions of dollars on fire? No problem! They get hired 2 seconds later at another company! Board members be like "OOooH! You haz executive experience! You're HIRED!" But us lowly Plebes? "Must have a 5 PhD's, an MBA from a prestigious University, 53 years relevant experience, no gaps in work history, undergo weekly lie detector tests/piss tests/prostate checks... for $12/hour. :nonono2:

That’s pretty funny. I wonder what percentage of the population has any kind of masters degree plus an MBA? 0.05% maybe?

Plenty of practical/technical MS programs have options to attach an MBA. Plenty of hybrid / MBA-lite programs available.

But yeah - over emphasis on checking boxes on resumes in today’s recruiting landscape is bullshit.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JP-MjPcw74E

Got an email from Ziprecruiter (that probably says enough in and of itself), but it made me laugh. In my industry, the income can be pretty decent. However, I get a message this morning about a local company hiring for a very technical aspect to the field. Not really my own specialty so whatever, but I know the job they're trying to fulfill typically pays closer to 100K-ish.

Anyway, the canned email ad says "$15-19/hour. - Based on the skills A-hole Corporation is looking for, I think you could be a good fit!" And then companies be like "NoBODy waNTs tO WorK AnYMORE!" These clowns can piss right off with that kind of advertised wage. Why go through years of training, certifications, internships, years of experience, etc. to make what fast food joints are paying these days? Eff off.

The c-suite needs to be paid. Thanks for your understanding.

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Originally Posted by jono

Sometimes you just can't come to terms. If the other side is intent on burning through fools and taking maximum advantage of them the best you can do is not be one of them. There are other opportunities.

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Well, guess what? You were right! It's not been easy, but I feel I was recently a bit vindicated. In light of the recent non-compete news, I wanted to do a quick update. So I get a call from a client needing my services, and it ends up the guy used to work for the same a-holes who I turned down the work for. Got to talking and without me saying anything negative, he goes off about the former's BS service agreements! He was like "Do they still have that 2 year non-compete?" Had to laugh, "Yup!" Anyway, he sends me over HIS contract and it has in its very own section: "Contractor is expressly free to perform services for parties other than X during the term of this agreement."

Seemed a bit on the nose, and I do believe was a bit of an F U to the other company. Hell yeah! Dude's been great to work for and I'm free to work for anybody, which is handy because the work isn't always steady. Makes me REALLY glad I didn't sign on with those other dickbags!

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Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

Well, guess what? You were right! It's not been easy, but I feel I was recently a bit vindicated. In light of the recent non-compete news, I wanted to do a quick update. So I get a call from a client needing my services, and it ends up the guy used to work for the same a-holes who I turned down the work for. Got to talking and without me saying anything negative, he goes off about the former's BS service agreements! He was like "Do they still have that 2 year non-compete?" Had to laugh, "Yup!" Anyway, he sends me over HIS contract and it has in its very own section: "Contractor is expressly free to perform services for parties other than X during the term of this agreement."

Seemed a bit on the nose, and I do believe was a bit of an F U to the other company. Hell yeah! Dude's been great to work for and I'm free to work for anybody, which is handy because the work isn't always steady. Makes me REALLY glad I didn't sign on with those other dickbags!

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I've had one question during all this: What the heck is it you do??? Assassin???

Porn

What’s “pretty decent” in this world?

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Originally Posted by Ted Striker

Porn

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what kind, normal porn or midget porn or ... ?

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

what kind, normal porn or midget porn or ... ?

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are you implying that midget porn isn't "normal"?

I’ll put my money on some kind of PIG tech or the like.

Glad to hear you’ve found your contract MF! Seriously.

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

what kind, normal porn or midget porn or ... ?

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Cake farts.

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Originally Posted by riser4

I've had one question during all this: What the heck is it you do??? Assassin???

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Haha. Some hilarious guesses above. CLOSE but not quite. I'm in "energy" writ large. After years of trying, I FINALLY successfully made the switch from O&G to renewables. Just did some geothermal stuff in Nevada, and now I'm in California on a solar project. My services are kind of broad, but in a nutshell I'm involved in the land management and project development side of things.

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Originally Posted by BCMtnHound

Glad to hear you’ve found your contract MF! Seriously.

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Thanks! This year's been brutal. It's really a tough call to turn down work when you really need the money, but a bullshit contract's a deal breaker for me in the end. Glad I stuck to my guns. My new boss is pretty rad with a totally fair contract. Favorable to us workers, in fact. What a concept, huh?!

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

What’s “pretty decent” in this world?

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More than the "$15-19/hour" mentioned in the job posting, I can tell you that much!

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Originally Posted by stealurface831

are you implying that midget porn isn't "normal"?

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This.

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Glad I stuck to my guns.

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Crazy thing is that usually doing what is right for you is what was right in the 1st place. Congrats.

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Originally Posted by Bunion 2020

Crazy thing is that usually doing what is right for you is what was right in the 1st place. Congrats.

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You're right! And thanks! The contrast between the two organizations is pretty stark. Whereas the former makes it clear you're their bitch (even though you're an IC), the latter has a company culture that's all about elevating each other. My PM even told me how good this project would be for boosting my career to where I was trying to go. As professionals, THAT'S how we should be with each other. The industry's riddled with ladder pullers, but ESPECIALLY on the green side, so it's a breath of fresh air.