anecdotal experience from a lifetime in healthcare: Do everything right...die anyway ; )
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danno
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anecdotal experience from a lifetime in healthcare: Do everything right...die anyway ; )
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danno
Yeah, I stopped Keto for the same reason partially. That and my penchant for beer. I also feel like my cholesterol was high because I ate at Slogar in CB multiple times in the week leading up to my last physical. Doc said that my high HDLs canceled out my high LDLs for now, but it wasn't optimal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danno
Keto may or may not be healthy, I feel like the jury is still out on that despite some pretty good scientific studies. However, I feel like there's very good evidence that the LDL cholesterol is bad and I don't want to fuck with clogged arteries down the road just because I needed to lose a few lbs in my 40's.
I'm not sure the evidence is so clear that LDL is bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Name Redacted
I'm sure there's evidence to the contrary, but it is pretty widely accepted by the CDC, mayo clinic, and many other well respected scientific organizations that LDL form plaque in the arteries and that is a bad thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danno
But I'm sure a quick google search could find an article showing that mainlining some LDL gives you super human strength and will make you live forever. :rolleyes: or that it is a vast left wing conspiracy against the meat, dairy, and chicken farm industry.
like this? :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Name Redacted
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6024687/
Did you even read that article? It is stating exactly my point. "Dietary Cholesterol" includes both LDL and HDL. LDL= Bad, HDL=Good. LDL= Saturated fat. LDL raises your chances of CVD. If you keep it in check, you'll lower your risk of CVD. Sounds like a pretty good thing to me, so I guess I'll make an effort.Quote:
Originally Posted by bodywhomper
Quote:
6. Conclusions
The current literature does not support the notion that dietary cholesterol increases the risk of heart disease in a healthy individuals. However, there is an ample evidence that saturated fatty acids and trans-fats increase cardiovascular disease risk. The fact that dietary cholesterol is common in foods that are high in saturated fatty acids might have contributed to the hypothesis that dietary cholesterol is atherogenic. In contrast, eggs are affordable, rich in protein and micronutrients, nutrient-dense and low in saturated fatty acids. The healthy eating pattern can incorporate nutrient-dense, calorie controlled meals with balanced nutrients and a variety of colorful vegetables and fruits. The body of literature regarding dietary cholesterol and cardiovascular disease in patients diagnosed with diabetes is still inconclusive and warrants further research.
sorry, i pasted the wrong article. i had a couple of tabs open. this is what i intended to paste. acting too quickly while inhaling lunch:Quote:
Originally Posted by Name Redacted
https://www.onlinejacc.org/content/76/7/844
If your TC is reasonable, HDL is high and TGs are low I wouldn't be too worried about your LDL.
Danno - What were your actual numbers? How was your glucose and A1C?
Total Cholesterol: 305Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
HDL: 57
LDL: 233
TriG: 75
These other numbers I am not familiar with, but in the test results it said
A1C: 5.5%
There were 2 glucose numbers, not sure what they are.
Estimated avg glucose: 111
Glucose: 100
I am going to get a coronary calcium scan soon.
Are those fasted numbers?
Here's the recommended healthy range just for reference:Quote:
Originally Posted by Danno
Cholesterol,
Total 100 - 199 mg/dL
Triglycerides Level 0 - 149 mg/dL
HDL Cholesterol >39 mg/dL
VLDL Cholesterol Cal 5 - 40 mg/dL
LDL Cholesterol 0 - 99 mg/dL
yesQuote:
Originally Posted by Mazderati
I recently had an active friend, my age, die of a sudden heart attack, so I am also going to schedule a coronary calcium scan to see where I'm at. My dad just had quad bipass surgery after his score came back near 1000.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danno
I feel pretty lucky about my numbers seeing as my dad had terrible cholesterol problems. My diet isn't great, I eat pretty much whatever I want when it presents itself. When I take the time to track macros I find that I eat more fat and protein and less carbs than "recommended."
Total cholesterol: 183
HDL: 73
LDL: 91
Triglycerides: 93
TC >300 is definitely something I would take seriously.
A1C is glycated hemoglobin, expressed as a % of your total hemoglobin. Generally anything under 6 is considered good. Fasting glucose of 100 is technically on the bubble for pre-diabetes, but not uncommon on a VLC diet due to reasons I don't have time to get into right now and I wouldn't be too concerned.
Hyperglycemia exacerbates CVD risk from hypercholesterolemia because excess glucose damages your arterial lining and your body patches the damage with cholesterol "scabs" that then turn into calcified plaques. So, just having high cholesterol is less serious than the typical person who has both problems. But, still, you'd have a hard time finding any doctor, even ones that are all-in on keto/VLC, who will say TC >300 is nothing to worry about.
Thanks. Not ignoring it. Going to see what the score is on the coronary calcium test, and also hopefully get the LDL down without the use of a statin.
Got the coronary calcium test and my score was a big fat zero. So I'm not going to worry about my cholesterol for now, and not taking a statin. Feeling pretty good about where I am overall with my nutrition.
Danno do you know your C-RP number? I've become more and more convinced over the years that inflammation is the key. It can arise from a lot of sources so it's both reflective of problems and in turn causative of, or at least related to, other problems, like the glucose/hyperglycemia link DTM mentioned above.
edit: mine's been very low, like vanishingly low, and I literally just opened an email with lab test results done this week for my physical next week but apparently they forgot to do it this time or something, I'm a little bummed.
I’ll share for anyone it might help that I was having some gut distress. Played around with quitting certain foods. Seems stupid now, but didn’t occur to me at first it might have been the coffee. I wasn’t really drinking that much potency, 5 scoops in a pot. But I was sipping it all day long. Usually from wake up till noon or 2 whenever it was gone. If you think of two large Starbucks, 5 scoops isn’t really all that much. Some people laugh and say it’s a lot but I think there’s more in the coffee shop drinks. Anyway, quit the coffee and things got better overnight. Switched to tea which I’ve always liked anyway. I generally have one green and one chai daily. It’s been a few weeks now cold turkey, I’ll try a cup in another week or so and see what’s up. Currently miss coffee pretty bad but it’s worth the happy stomach.
Try cold brew, you can heat it up. Less acidity. Green tea is pretty acidic too, always gave me a harder time than coffee. That's assuming that the acidity was your problem anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rideski
I’m not sure yet if it was the acid that was the problem or not. But I’ll try cold brew, have heard good things about it anyway.
I’ve always heard to watch out for the brown acid.
Green tea’s been treating me bad lately. Macha is the worst. Usually, gagging reflex and often upset stomach. 15-20 years ago, I had green tea often, like between a cup or a small pot every day.
I have no idea what that is.Quote:
Originally Posted by ötzi
But I do know that one of the things the keto diet is supposed to do is reduce inflammation, and one of the philosophies is that inflammation is the key, just like you said.
C-RP is c-reactive protein and the test for it is basically a measure of the general level of inflammation in the body. It's actually the high-sensitivity c-rp test that's indicative or predictive of cardiac issues. Here's just the first google result but it's a credible source: https://www.uofmhealth.org/health-library/abq4481
I'm not a doctor or a scientist but I've read a lot about it and I would say that it's probably worth your while to study up on it a bit and to have some idea of where you stand. High cholesterol is way more of an issue in conjunction with lots of inflammation in the body, basically.
Amen. It's amusing (not really) when someone with some awful disease blames themselves for the disease because they must have done something wrong. (The awful corollary is when someone has cancer for example and it spreads and people say that person is dying because they didn't have a positive attitude or didn't fight hard enough. No, it's because the cancer cells are multiplying faster than positive attitude can kill them.)Quote:
Originally Posted by whipski
I stopped eating too much and adding sugar to food
lost 15lbs, a1c dropped by a couple points, good cholesterol went up bad cholesteral went down
That makes sense. And that last sentence is the whole reason the keto community is not so concerned with high cholesterol, because with greatly reduced inflammation from following the diet, the cholesterol numbers aren't very significant.Quote:
Originally Posted by ötzi
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodywhomper
Black or orange tea in the morning makes me puke, with very little warning. I like the taste just fine, it just makes me puke.
I can handle it ok in the afternoon, but not before I've eaten. Green tea is not so bad, but the longer it steeps, the more likely I'll have a problem with it.
Great news!Quote:
Originally Posted by Danno
While I don't disagree with this, keto is hardly the only diet that reduces systemic inflammation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danno
didn't mean to imply that it was, it's just the one that I'm on!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
Anyone do potassium supplements? I've been realizing lately that potassium deficiency has probably plagued me for decades. Cramps, fatigue, irregular heart beat, etc.
Based on the large amount of daily intake of potassium recommended, and how hard it is to reach that max without everything I eat revolving around how much potassium is in it, I'm thinking of starting easy and taking a 1000mg supplement daily. Everywhere online says be cautious on potassium supplements, but by my math with this supplement I'm still 1000-2000mg short every day. Anyone want to sanity-check me or have experience with low potassium and what did you do about it?
I'll ask to get my levels checked by a doc soon, yes, I know.
I don't have any experience with taking K supplements and you should talk to a doc, but as long as you take reasonable amounts, aren't taking ACE inhibitors or a few other meds that raise serum K levels, and have normal kidney function there's basically zero risk.
Anyone taking NR or NMN? I finished listening to David Sinclair's Lifespan yesterday and being on the cusp of 40 I'm definitely intrigued. Robust human studies are lacking but the animal data is pretty conclusive. At the very least it seems quite safe (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-03421-7). The biggest risk seems to be financial as the stuff isn't cheap, though it's not terribly expensive either and pretty cheap compared to the cost of chronic age-related disease.
Forgot to thank you for this: thank you. I now know why they say be cautious and to consult a doc, as it may be a bad idea to do these supplements if you are on certain meds and a doc would know better. I ain't on any meds though. And I have noticed much less cramping since taking potassium supplements and drinking OJ every morning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
Cool. I should try it. I eat a lot of potatoes and produce so I always figured I get plenty of potassium, but I have been having cramping issues for a while.
Unpacking the science behind the shape of Pringles: https://amp.interestingengineering.c...lic-paraboloid
Eating more meat increased longevity in the Japanese: https://www.economist.com/graphic-de...ng-their-diets
In Russian adults over 65 there's a U-shaped association between the total cholesterol and all-cause mortality, with minimum mortality occurring at cholesterol concentrations between 209-278 mg/dL: https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...01746?via=ihub
So I asked the brainy gf what attributed to red meat being deemed more cancerous than others and this is the reply I got. Thought some might find it interesting and or have opinions/facts to support or disagree.
Source:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4698595/
The possible factors from red meat consumption that could cause cancer:
1. N-nitroso compounds (NOCs)
2. Heterocyclic amines (HCAs)
3. Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs)
4. Heme iron in red meat
5. PUFAs
6. Bile acids (made by the gut in response to the presence of dietary fat)
7. Other infectious agents
other helpful definitions to know:
mutagen: a chemical or physical agent that causes an error in DNA replication (can cause a mutation, hence the name), mutagens are also carcinogens...kind of like a precursor to a tumor forming. If you get enough mutations, you are more likely to have a tumor/cancer form
carcinogen: a chemical or physical agent that has the ability to cause cancer, could be due to damage to the genetic code or disruption of normal cellular processes
1. N-nitroso compounds (NOCs) -
production in meat occurs during meat processing, like making yummy bacon and sausage; mutagenic so potentially cancer causing; also formed by the body when meat is consumed
Evidence that it cause cancer:
article cites high NOCs in fecal samples of red meat eaters, NOCs are carcinogenic compounds so would lead to higher incidences of colorectal cancers in this group
2.& 3. Heterocyclic amines (HCAs) & Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) -
potent carcinogens produced during high temperature or open flame cooking; high temperatures cause chemical reactions in meat that produce HCAs & PAHs; high levels of these compounds found in well-done meats
Evidence that it cause cancer:
study that shows positive correlation between well-done meat eating and recurrence (returning colorectal cancers)
6. Bile Acids (BAs) -
dietary fat increases production of bile acids in the gut; animal meat contains a high amount of saturated fats (40-70%) causing increased bile acid (BA) production when eaten; small amount of metabolized bile acids (secondary BAs) can enter digestive tract and cause imbalance and dysfunction
Evidence that it causes cancer:
article cites that there are inconsistent results to show a link between high fat consumption and colorectal cancers...it does state that high fat diets can cause obesity, which can cause insulin resistance, which is linked to tumor growth
Chronic exposure to secondary BAs can cause disorder and inflammation that over time can potentially cause cancer to form.
Colorectal cancer due to red meat is caused by high temperature cooking (which causes carcinogens in the chemical process of cooking) and indirectly by high saturated fat, which can cause insulin resistance and inflammation over a longer period, causing cancer development.
Article found that showed no direct link between high saturated fat diets and intestinal cancers:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3023148/
This article basically says it is a combination of all of the factors (and gets down to details f cooking times, temps and types of meat - interesting!):
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...541-4337.12501
article here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...14000564#s0040
"Therefore, it is difficult to conclude that dietary red meat is the main cause of colorectal cancer. Rather, there may be an intricate influence of multiple factors, including fruit and vegetable intake, alcohol consumption, smoking, overweight, obesity, and stress."Quote:
Originally Posted by Rideski
Pretty much. Red meat *might* exacerbate the risk of colorectal cancer in the context of a generally unhealthy lifestyle. It's not associated with any other kind of cancer.
Dan, what’s the latest on animal fats, particularly Omega 6 fatty acids?
O-6 in meat specifically? Honestly I haven't seen much on it lately, though I haven't really been looking. My general opinion is that unless you're eating a chicken thigh-based carnivore diet (which I wouldn't recommend) O-6 are just not a problem if you don't eat refined seed oils.
Thanks Dan. Even though some of the science in the longer articles is out of my scope of knowledge I was still thinking there were big caveats as well. She had already called the friendly wager a draw when she wrote that.