Police Behaving Badly

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Originally Posted by old goat

why did the second cop follow the first around the front of the car where he was of no help, rather than running around the back and meeting him at the door? (Trivial of course in the context, but as long as we're second guessing . . . )

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That's a valid question in that context, but I wasn't really intending to second-guess their tactics. Probably a step too subtle given the current state of the TRGs, but what I meant was this: a scared person acts reflexively to protect himself from the threat he perceives. (Why courts routinely justify fearful shooters.)

The officer walked past a tire without shooting a hole in it because he wasn't afraid that Blake was going to drive away. He stood by while the door was opening because he wasn't afraid of what was inside. He fired his weapon in the moment when it was either that or let the guy leave because he had failed to act effectively in each moment prior--bringing him to a moment when shooting could appear justified. I'm not saying he planned it even 2 minutes before, but plans are formulated in real time and this guy's actions are more consistent with having planned them than reacting to some speculative threat.

George Floyd it's not, but this stinks.

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Originally Posted by jono

That's a valid question in that context, but I wasn't really intending to second-guess their tactics. Probably a step too subtle given the current state of the TRGs, but what I meant was this: a scared person acts reflexively to protect himself from the threat he perceives. (Why courts routinely justify fearful shooters.)

The officer walked past a tire without shooting a hole in it because he wasn't afraid that Blake was going to drive away. He stood by while the door was opening because he wasn't afraid of what was inside. He fired his weapon in the moment when it was either that or let the guy leave because he had failed to act effectively in each moment prior--bringing him to a moment when shooting could appear justified. I'm not saying he planned it even 2 minutes before, but plans are formulated in real time and this guy's actions are more consistent with having planned them than reacting to some speculative threat.

George Floyd it's not, but this stinks.

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good points. some of these cases (george floyd) involve pure malice. A lot, like this one involve a combination of inherent bias against Black people and a lack of training in how to handle various scenarios. Cops should be training in handling scenarios like the Jacob Blake incident over and over, throughout their careers, so that they make the right decisions before they have a chance to think about it. Probably naive, wishful thinking on my part.

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Originally Posted by old goat

why did the second cop follow the first around the front of the car where he was of no help, rather than running around the back and meeting him at the door? (Trivial of course in the context, but as long as we're second guessing . . . )

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It would have created a cross fire situation. Cop's would have been pointing their guns at each other. It's a big no no

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Originally Posted by dtown

A lot of monday morning quarterbacking going on in this thread...a few folks seem to be pretty adamant to poke holes in what actions police and/ or victims have taken no matter the circumstance, guess that’s what the internet is for.




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One group is supposed to be trained professionals, the others are random people. You can always rely on people being unpredictable and terrible, so if shooting people is plan b rather than plan z you've fucked up hard. To be clear, a lot of this is the result of poor police leadership.

Just comply....

https://twitter.com/ShannonSharpe/st...211625984?s=19

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Originally Posted by MTT

It would have created a cross fire situation. Cop's would have been pointing their guns at each other. It's a big no no

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This makes perfect sense--if the plan is to shoot. These are little pieces, but they all keep pointing to intent to shoot.

Maybe in the moment it's more like the training kicks in than that a specific plan is formulated. In which case the training defines the plan and the planner was the trainer. Which is exactly how systems (and systemic problems within them) are created.

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Originally Posted by old goat

Cops should be training in handling scenarios like the Jacob Blake incident over and over, throughout their careers, so that they make the right decisions before they have a chance to think about it. Probably naive, wishful thinking on my part.

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You're right, but I don't expect 'more' is the solution. On the contrary: they are training throughout their careers and the training teaches them how to shoot the guy. Unconsciously (at best) reinforcing the idea that shooting him is the right thing to do.

I'm sure there are places where this is not the case, but the events that make the news keep happening in relative powder kegs--places where it's probably not news. Big surprise.

Kenosha really wasn't a "powder keg" place before this.

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Originally Posted by Benny Profane

Kenosha really wasn't a "powder keg" place before this.

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That we knew of. Reading smartiak's description sounds like stark divisions in the community where police stand back and watch it burn or push protesters to armed nuts. That attitude didn't come about overnight. The local PD that buys tanks and refuses body cams lights a long fuse.

ETA: "Powder keg" is a bit of a red herring/implies other issues. I'm saying these are places where this specific issue has been bubbling and now it's coming to a full boil.

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Originally Posted by jono

That we knew of. Reading smartiak's description sounds like stark divisions in the community where police stand back and watch it burn or push protesters to armed nuts. That attitude didn't come about overnight. The local PD that buys tanks and refuses body cams lights a long fuse.
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I haven’t lived there since 1990...

But knowing how it was growing up, if you follow a natural trajectory...I could see this being accurate.

Re: body cams. I don’t know Keno’s situation, but I know that here, police haven’t “refused” to buy them....and many officers welcome them.

The discussions I’ve been part of have revolved around two issues (and $$$ of the cameras themselves has been low on the list.
The issues were 1) when to turn them on (I.e. are they constantly running...every time they step out of car, every time they encounter someone...only when there’s an incident call, etc.)... which brings to the real issue 2) paying for cloud space...it was mentioned earlier. But they have to keep all the recordings and it’s a real issue for departments, not only planning how to store and how long lot store, but paying for keeping it.


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Originally Posted by old goat

good points. some of these cases (george floyd) involve pure malice. A lot, like this one involve a combination of inherent bias against Black people and a lack of training in how to handle various scenarios. Cops should be training in handling scenarios like the Jacob Blake incident over and over, throughout their careers, so that they make the right decisions before they have a chance to think about it. Probably naive, wishful thinking on my part.

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They are trained in it over and over, they are trained to do exactly what happened here. Police defend their “right” to shoot people over far less benign threats. Watch a police training video, it is almost all about how to notice any subtle threat and to respond with overwhelming or lethal force. Then that they will go home and “have the greatest sex of your life”. This is what your tax dollars are paying for.

Let me clarify--cops should train in how to handle people resisting arrest or being otherwise uncooperative by non-lethal means. And train and train and train. If football players can train over and over until running a given play is automatic, cops can do it when human life is at stake. Makes more sense than buying a lot of tanks.

You were clear OG. We're in violent agreement. The current results just prove the point.

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Originally Posted by old goat

Let me clarify--cops should train in how to handle people resisting arrest or being otherwise uncooperative by non-lethal means. And train and train and train. If football players can train over and over until running a given play is automatic, cops can do it when human life is at stake. Makes more sense than buying a lot of tanks.

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Kinda funny. Because of who I am. Every time I have an interaction with police. Guns are drawn and pointed at me. It is what it
I am not happy about it. But?8

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Originally Posted by old goat

Let me clarify--cops should train in how to handle people resisting arrest or being otherwise uncooperative by non-lethal means. And train and train and train. If football players can train over and over until running a given play is automatic, cops can do it when human life is at stake. Makes more sense than buying a lot of tanks.

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Hey. Just thought I would throw this out there. You live 20 miles from me. If you want to learn about guns. And defending you're self. I can help you with.

Yeah ....... no.

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Originally Posted by old goat

Let me clarify--cops should train in how to handle people resisting arrest or being otherwise uncooperative by non-lethal means. And train and train and train. If football players can train over and over until running a given play is automatic, cops can do it when human life is at stake. Makes more sense than buying a lot of tanks.

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How does a suspect with a deadly weapon factor in, in your opinion? To my knowledge, cops already train in using strictly non-lethal force to detain a suspect without a deadly weapon (typically knife or gun).

How much risk should that officer have to take on to avoid using deadly force to detain a suspect? Should we place more importance on protecting the safety of a civilian holding a deadly weapon and resisting/not complying than on the safety of the officer responding?

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

How does a suspect with a deadly weapon factor in, in your opinion? To my knowledge, cops already train in using strictly non-lethal force to detain a suspect without a deadly weapon (typically knife or gun).

How much risk should that officer have to take on to avoid using deadly force to detain a suspect? Should we place more importance on protecting the safety of a civilian holding a deadly weapon and resisting/not complying than on the safety of the officer responding?

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Go find someone else to argue with. I already have a wife.

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Originally Posted by old goat

Go find someone else to argue with. I already have a wife.

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Sorry for asking your opinion/take.

Joe Friday understood how the police need to be trained on race relations back in the 60’s.

Too bad the cops of today don’t watch Dragnet reruns. Too busy playing Call of Duty...




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Originally Posted by smartyiak

I haven’t lived there since 1990...

But knowing how it was growing up, if you follow a natural trajectory...I could see this being accurate.

Re: body cams. I don’t know Keno’s situation, but I know that here, police haven’t “refused” to buy them....and many officers welcome them.

The discussions I’ve been part of have revolved around two issues (and $$$ of the cameras themselves has been low on the list.
The issues were 1) when to turn them on (I.e. are they constantly running...every time they step out of car, every time they encounter someone...only when there’s an incident call, etc.)... which brings to the real issue 2) paying for cloud space...it was mentioned earlier. But they have to keep all the recordings and it’s a real issue for departments, not only planning how to store and how long lot store, but paying for keeping it.


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Lots of discussion points that need to be worked out. Storage is one of many issues.

^^^And yet, other police departments all over the country seem to have figured it out...

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Originally Posted by TBS

^^^And yet, other police departments all over the country seem to have figured it out...

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And yet, other police departments all over the country haven’t figured it out.


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Ronnie Long freed after serving 44 years on a wrongful conviction for rape. Police withheld evidence--for starters, semen that didn't match Mr. Long.
If you think it doesn't happen any more you're delusional.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/28/us/ro...rnd/index.html

zomg please please please youtube of mtt and old goat’s gun totin’ adventures in bat country!

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