I do my long runs as slow as possible. the point of the long run isn't to get fast.. it's to train yourself to spend lots of time on your feet.
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I do my long runs as slow as possible. the point of the long run isn't to get fast.. it's to train yourself to spend lots of time on your feet.
I tend to run my long runs (8 miles+)- i'm working towards a sub 2:00 hr. half marathon- at about 10-20 seconds per mile slower than my goal race pace. I have NO idea if that is the right thing to do...but it works for me...
I'm doing a marathon in a just over a month.
My base fitness is reasonable and I'm not going to try and break any records. I tend to run half marathons in 1 hour 30 to 1 hour 32 pace.
I'm currently covering about 30-40 miles per week over three or four runs. Weekdays I do 8 miles per day, twice or three times per week. At weekends I always intend to put in an 20 - 22 miler, but seem to just lose the drive at about 14 or 15.
Is there a knack to breaking these mental barriers? Will going slower help - or will it mean I'm on my legs longer and the overall effect be the same? I know that sounds very daft, but the fatigue in my legs only really kicks in at 13 or 14 miles and even then its mild.
I am aiming to do the marathon at 4.5 hours and am currently ticking along at 8.5 to 9 minute miles in training.
^^^Are you eating or drinking during these long training runs? If yes, then what and how much?
Viva/tuckerman/daywalker/steve/other ultra runners:
What does your nutrition generally look like for a mega-long run? How many cals/hour do you try and take?
Should I be doing the same thing here I did for Ironman? I tried to do 100 cal/hour of a drink (accelerade/gatoraid) AND 100 cals/hour of a "food" ie- gel, payday bar, fig newton, etc for that.
I thought maybe something less would work here- mainly because you're prettymuch carrying your stuff- particularly for those 30 mile training runs where I am self-supported on the Long Path and have no "rest stops" to really hit up.
Let's hear it. Thanks!
Ran the falmouth road race sunday- 7 miles. I never run...my training consisted of not drinking quite as much heavy beer, and I did 3 miles about a week earlier. Did it in an hour even, and it was sort of crowded- tough to get a good pace when youre dodging people. After about 3 miles I died and the remaining 4 miles were agony.
Afterward I got to thinking, the times I wasnt tired were when I really tried to go a little faster and just let my legs go. I only got tired when I thought about it and when I slowed down a little. Is this reasonable? Im looking to do next years race in 57 minutes or less- attainable, I think
I've been doing alot of long runs this summer getting ready for Leadville this weekend, my longest was approx. 11hrs. I usually ate a gel every 45 minutes, or alternate between gels and cliff blocks. Combined with powerade, probably 300+ calories an hour, which sometimes did not seem to be enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanDip4All
I am going to try and get closer to 500 calories an hour during the race, that shouldn't be a problem with aid stations every 10 miles. I will also be carrying endurlyte pills with me and will probably take 1-2hr as the day goes on.
I am hoping to avoid any major stomach issues during the race.
Viva, any last minute advice for Leadville???
I don't have it down to a science, I try and feel it out as I go if that's possible. I have gotten a lot better I don't cramp up as much as I did when I first started. I guess I never think about cals (maybe I should). I try and take in a gu pack/gel every 45mins if my run is unsupported. I can only fit so much in my CamelBak. If its a supported run I eat what ever I can stuff in my face with out stopping too long, and grabbing some kind of sports drink at most of the aid stations. I think whole food is better for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanDip4All
I also take e-caps every 45mins. I think I have a lot of extra cals stored, but I run low on Sodium, Chloride, Calcium, Magnesium, and Potassium.
Not sure if that helps. I'm not even sure that I would recognize the signs of being cal deficient during a run.
from runners world article.
1. You'll burn roughly 400 to 600 calories per hour during your run, but your body can absorb only 240 to 280 calories per hour. You'll never dig out of this deficit, but eating early and often will keep you from bonking. Early on, you can survive on gels and other carbs, but after four hours, add one part protein to four parts carbs (a mix found in most sports bars), says Sunny Blende, M.S., a sports nutritionist and ultrarunner from Sausalito, California.
i was a volunteer at a 50k this past weekend. i ran a food table. i had gu, pretzels, salt-potatoes, m&ms, pbj, and defizzed coke. people's choices were completely dependent on that person's preferences and tolerances, and the variation was tremendous. everyone is an experiment of one, and that is especially true with running food.
in my case:
my normal pre-long-run food is a bagel with lox/creamcheese. the "bagel" part is key.. before the philadelphia marathon, i had no bagel. it made a difference. i took a bagel from a spectator at mile 19. it made a difference.
normally during the run/race, i'm pretty laid back. i try to drink gatorade on my training lsds. i otherwise eat/drink whatever is at aid stations. gels don't work for me, although i recently discovered that i can eat less than a whole gel without stomach distress. but it doesn't do much.. coke (defizzed or otherwise) doesn't work for me either. clif shot blocks do work for me. i'm bringin them to the 50-miler on labor day.
however, my case is not your case. you're probably at least a little different, perhaps completely different..
I shoot for that 300 cal/hr rate, mainly using clif bars, gels, and drink on runs. That's the same target I'm going to try to hit during the race. I carry a few gels and a clif bar with me plus a credit card for a gatorade and whatever mid run. Can you hit up a convenience store somewhere on your run?
Artie, I would differ to Viva (or anyone who actually knows what they are talking about), but do you think it's wise to try to almost double your cal intake from your training runs? How were you feeling at the end of 11 hours at 300 cal/hr? I'm somewhat talking out of my ass here, but thinking of the old "don't try anything new on race day" axiom
On a related note, do you guys take water on >10km runs? I get to about 12km and just bonk out and think this would help.
If so, how do you take liquid on a run without looking like a douchebag?
edg
Don't go crazy on that downhill start from Downtown. Take it easy on the first 5 miles or so of pavement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Artie Fufkin
Once you find your groove, go with it- you'll know exactly what pace is appropriate at any given moment. DO NOT try and hold back if you're feeling good on the long downhills. That can cause you to adopt a weird stride and you may end up tweaking something. Don't go gangbusters either.
By now you know what works for you. Stick with your routine. don't try anything new. Period. There will be a lot of weird shit served at the aid stations, especially at night. Eat prudently. Best to stick with what you know works, but expect to get sick of your normal food and drink after 15 or 20 hours. Chicken soup is usually safe for most people. Mix in some extra salt if you're cramping a little.
^^^Unless you totally blow up. Then, when you finally crawl into the next aid station, tell the aid station captain or chief medical person exactly what's going on with you and that you intend to finish. Then do exactly what they tell you to. Some of those guys have been there for over 20 years and they know their shit.
When you leave the aid stations, thank everyone on the way out.
Avoid the chair. There's absolutely no reason to ever sit during Leadville, unless you just have to change socks following that river crossing at Twin Lakes. You're there to run, not sit. Once you sit, it will cost you time and your legs will fell like caca when you get up.
Likewise, avoid lingering at aid stations. Fill your bottles (or cameltoe), grab some food, pinch the cute girls on the butt (I liked to give hugs- seriously, try it. When they ask you if there's anything else you need, ask for a hug. Just don't get an erection because you don't want to interrupt the blood supply to your legs) and get back out on the trail. This can be hard at places like MayQueen, where they have this ridiculously long tent with heaters and benches. Very cozy when it's in the 30s outside and you're sweaty and dressed in shorts. Get what you need and get the fuck out.
If you're hurting, no more than 2 ibuprofin every 4 hours.
Eat some home-made cookies at the Hope Pass aid station. Stop and take in the view from there; easily the most beautiful section of the race. Don't forget to pet the llamas either.
Redundancy. Keep things you may need in several drop bags. Anticipate where you might need gloves, a pullover, etc. Keep extra flashlights and batteries in every drop bag you'll hit during the night section.
Will you have a crew. Make sure that they have a camera and that they use it. There'll be some great memories and chances for some great shots.
HAVE FUN!!!
I only bring water if the run is 15 or more miles.
http://www.nathansports.com/our_prod...hpl020_265.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by edg
http://www.nathansports.com/our_prod...n/hpl_020.html
... only on trail runs though. this would look pretty douchey on roads..
If it's 100 F or 100% humidity, you'll look like a bigger douchebag, albeit an empty, shriveled up douchebag, lying on the ground flaying about with severe muscle cramps. Not able to call for help because your throat is parched.Quote:
Originally Posted by edg
Seriously, take a bottle (handjob!) filled with electrolyte. Choose one that uses complex carbohydrates, rather than glucose or sucrose. Consider trying energy gels every 30 minutes followed by a swig of water. Note- I drink electrolyte alone or water with gels. Ultimately, you're gonna have to figure out what works best for you.
If this helps, you'll be running an extra 2 or 3K and then you'll really be glad to have a bottle.
Cheers guys! It's kind of ridiculous that I swig every 30 mins on the bike but never thought to do it on my feet really!
edg
Quote:
Originally Posted by edg
^^^ I've tried waist packs, camelbacks etc. The easiest way to not look like a douchebag is to know the route you're running that day and try to stash a bottle of H2O or gatorade somewhere on the route. I'll second viva about the electrolytes. My first marathon I only drank water because I didn't like the taste of whatever drink they were providing. I was really well hydrated but bonked harder than at mile 23. I'd encourage finding out whatever drink is being provided at the event and practice drinking it if possible.
Sidenote: I just started running again last week after 20 months off and two ACL reconstructions. Maybe a spring marathon will be in order.
That's good advice, I've also been experimenting with some different foods and drinks, so I have a fairly good idea of what works, though what works 2hrs into the race might not work 20 hours later. After the 11hrs I felt pretty good, I ran out of water towards the end, but that was more of a hydration issue. That was resolved after the run by loading up on IPAs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daywalker
Thanks! I had a crew and pacer and now I don't, so I am relying on drop bags at the aid stations(all except Mayqueen). I'll have my own food in the drop bags, probably some extra clothing to just in case. I definitely want to minimize my time in the aid stations. It seemed like a lot of runners picked up pacers along the way, so if I get to that point I should be able to pick one up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viva
Edg - Camel Bak Razor.
Runs of 45 mins or more need a bit of liquid.
I don't bring water with me just because there are a lot of water fountains (or bubblers depending on where you're from - God I hate that term) along the bike path I run on and I try to stop every few miles for a quick sip just to stay hydrated. I take hammer gels at the 1hr mark and then 45min to an hr after that. I definitely need to start calorie loading better pre runs though as I can tell the difference in how I feel on the days that I don't. Morning of a long run I usually have a piece of bread with a banana or an orange. I started bringing a $20 with me for emergency purpose (need extra food/water/ something happens and I need a cab back or to make a phone call, etc.) didn't for a while then thought it would be smart to carry some money.
Artie Fufkin - I just wanted to wish the best run of your life at Leadville. I have to Leadville buckles and I love that race. You have gotten excellent advice from Viva, keep moving and don't spent a lot of time in aid stations i the best advice. The cut-offs at Leadville keep a lot of people from finishing there.
Your plan to eat 500 cal in aid stations won't happen. Number one you cannot digest that much food on the run and second I don't know if you have ever spend more than 20 hour moving at 10,000 feet plus, but you lose your appetite. by the time you back to Half Moon A/S nothing on the table is gong to look good. If so soup will keep you going.
If you sit and have a pacer have them time you and limit it to two or no more than three minutes. most importantly is keep having fun even if you're on the side of the trail puking. Have fun with other runners on the course, mainly have fun with aid station volunteers and if you have a crew, have fun with them and don't whine to them, and don't bitch at them. They deserve better because they are out there for two days for you.
Enjoy man! Can't wait to hear about it.
BTW: I'll be dong the same song and dance at the Angeles Crest 100 next month.
Both Chunder and I are running a bitch of a half-marathon in Santa Barbara at the end of this August. It's basically all uphill starting from sea level and finishing at 3,996 feet. If you want to see if you can run up a mountain, this is a good test.
My first 100 back in 92. Still a low-key race and a very fun course. Have fun!Quote:
Originally Posted by squirrel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artie Fufkin
Shit, if you had mentioned it 3 weeks ago I would stuck around CO and taken care of it. As it is I'll be doing "heavy" training for me this weekend (25 Sat, 15 Sun) all by my lonesome in Virginia.
Good luck!
Thanks! Heading up to the Sugar Loafin' campground today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daywalker
I shouldn't have a problem picking up a pacer at Winfield or Twin Lakes, it seemed like a lot of runners do that if they don't have pacers lined up. Weather looks alot cooler than last year.
Wow good luck man. The weather look great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Artie Fufkin
Quote:
"August snow in Colorado?By Alan Gathright, Rocky Mountain News"Snow in August!"A cold front arriving Thursday could drop some winter-like frosting above 10,000 feet along and east of the Continental Divide, including parts of Rocky Mountain National Park, early Friday morning and night."That will be a significant cool-off," said Bob Koopmeiners of the National Weather Service in Boulder."But be on the lookout: The urban corridor could face some severe thunderstorms packing large hail and damaging winds this afternoon and evening."Then it will get chilly, wet and windy Friday — with a 60 percent chance of rain and gusts up to 20 mph."
This dood eating pizza during the Leadville 100. Also watch out for this dood I'm guessing he'll be spitting a lot.
Pizza is my favorite in a 100 mile run. Normally around mile 50 and 75, two slices and some Red Bull or Monster and that is awesome fuel for a good couple of hours. Try it you'll like it.....
Bump.
For those of you on Ultra, Halfs, Marathons, Endurognarads or other long run training plans, how'd you're long run go this weekend?
Did 16 this morning and felt really good, tried to do a tempo for the last 1/4mi and ended up sprinting. Guess I had a lot more in me than I realized which is always nice. I ran with a local running group for the first time that does build up marathon runs on Sat. mornings and it was awesome. I've never really run with other people before and it was helpful to keep pace, stay motivated and meet cool new people. They have a few water/gatorade stations set up along the course in addition to the water fountains, and then at the end they have tons of bananas, oranges, pretzels, water, soda, gatorade, chips to refuel. Definitely much better than running the long runs solo and unsupported.
So how about the rest of you. Do you do supported long runs? Solo? Drop off supply bags? Out and backs or dropped off by car and run back?
How often do you take gels or cliff shots on the longer runs. I'm trying to play with what works best. This time I did 2 little blocks at about an hr and then about 45min or so later I did a hammer gel. Think I may do it at 35-40min intervals or do the first one sooner next time. Can you take too many of these things? What's the standard time gaps between?
Artie's doing alright; looks like he's about 18:33 into it with 30 miles to go. Fuck! I wish I was there.
Yeah Artie!
skiaholik, my weekend:
Ran 25 on Saturday in 4:07 (9:52/mile) over a hilly route, piss and food stops included. I used 3 drops at 7, 13, and 19 miles (dropped water/gatorade/food) and carried a liter of water with me between drops. I ate 250-300 calories/hour mainly composed of gels and clif bars but also some fig newtons. I discovered that clif bars start to suck to chew later in a run and a caffeinated shot rocks. I was pretty happy with the run, as I was out running by myself over hillier terrain than normal and my mind and body handled it fine. It's my longest training run so far.
Today I ran 15 in 2:40 (10:40/mile) over an even hillier route. I used 2 drops and carried the liter with me. Same calories consumed, but experimented with PB&J, which I've had on the bike before. It tasted delicious and got me my calories. Hoo-rah. My knee bothered me a bit on the downhills, so I walked those. That brought the lower pace. I paid a bit more attention to my stride and think it was just a mis-step that I couldn't recover from without taking a few walking steps and starting again. It only happened a few times over the course of the run, but it bothers me a bit since I usually don't get injured. At least I got through the long weekend. Took an ice bath after the run and currently I feel pretty good.
Looks like Artie left May Queen aid station at just over 24 hours. He would have had 10-11 miles to go from there, so he's gotta be done by now.
Super-slow, super-easy 22.67 miles in 5:58.Quote:
Originally Posted by skiaholik
That's about the pace that I'll be running the grand-teton 50-miler in.
which is in 13 days, by the way.
fuck me.. with a chainsaw.. gently..
at any rate, my legs feel great!
-steve
edit to add : http://trail.motionbased.com/trail/activity/6539934 (check out that hill at the end)
holy shit i am wrecked, i think my time was 28:25 or so, weather was gnarly, sideway rain off turqoise this morning, hail, etc i believe of the 500+ starters finishers were less than 200. i'll post some more details in a couple days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viva
thanks to all for the last minute advice, unfortunately i didn't follow all of it, but viva's recommendation of having fun was key, i hurt pretty bad for the second half of the race, but always tried to keep smiling when going through the aid stations, etc. the volunteers, crews, crowds were amazing.
only 100 miles? pussy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Artie Fufkin
oh wait. i meant to say that's amazing. congrats.
Got married last Saturday and, today, the wife and I agreed to get in shape and signed up for the Carlsbad Marathon in mid-January. Anyone run this one? Or planning on it?
We've got that Four Hour Marathon in Four Months book but any other training websites, tips, books, etc would be appreciated. Thanks!!! We've never done this before...
I've been listening in (reading) this thread for a while, but haven't had much to say...we've got the Banco Popular Half-Marathon coming up in September, and the Moab ("Other") Half Marathon coming up in October - all is well and both my wife and I should be in PR shape this year for both races.
We did crank out a fun little ride/run race here in Chicago last week - the Muddy Buddy - we did it last year as well - what a fun little 11k - click the link for more info if you've never heard of it - there are a bunch of them around the country.
There were 1500 teams of two, starting in waves of 100 - bikers start first, then runners go two minutes later - you switch off every mile or so - basically the biker gets to an obstacle (climbing wall, etc) - leaves the bike in transition, does the obstacle and starts running, and the runner does the obstacle, gets the bike, and starts riding - that way you leapfog the whole way until you get to the end, and have to clear the mud pit together.
Me on the course (yes, you have to run in a bike helmet - event rules)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2262/...5208308f43.jpg
My wife on the bike
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3137/...fe7369cdb2.jpg
In the mud pit
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3014/...8b2762c320.jpg
And coming out of the mud pit, to the finish line
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3163/...de90d38be5.jpg
Its a complete muddy mess, and a really good time.
I love this race since it's the opposite of hard core, everyone's out to have a good time, and nothing gets taken too seriously - but its still a decent little workout.
FKNAQuote:
Originally Posted by Artie Fufkin
http://sweetdaddy.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/borat.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artie Fufkin
YEAH, DUDE!
does leadville have cutoffs?
freaking awesome, Artie!!! Can't wait to hear more about ze race.
Also, Baron, that race seems really fun. I love the mud pits!