PARK CITY (and all) SKI PATROLLERS DESERVE MORE.

Conveniently, the union comes to an agreement the day they have to start $300 weekly checks to the striking patrollers. Will be interesting to see what the settlement is.

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Originally Posted by summit

Which is why VR won't incentivize it by caving to wild demands like the (unasked in the real world but proposed in this thread) $30/hr.

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Settle down a little there. I didn’t propose $30 /hr, I said it was justified. You seem to be getting a little worked up in your views on this topic.

Park city has always sucked, even worse with limited terrain. They don’t get shit for snow. I think it’s hilarious that it took a patrol strike for people to realize this. Go back to Colorado you’ll be happier


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You raised the point. I discussed it. Worked up? Hardly. I don't have a dog in this fight other than seeing folks I know get hosed by Vail, knowing that Vail Resorts leadership fucked the pooch and I hope the patrollers get a win. But I am up for critically discussing some of the rather wild declarations around this. :)

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Originally Posted by frorider

As a half (assed) Swiss I’ve been familiar with the German model my whole life & I wish we had something less simplistic than the ‘us vs them’ mentality I see in labor relations here. In Germany companies with over 2000 employees have labor elected officials serving on the company board. How much reduction in stock dividends is appropriate to enable appropriate Vail wages for new & experienced employees?—that’s a great topic for a Board with skin in all aspects of the game.

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It's almost as if *other* countries have figured some of this shit out and could be used as a model for things here in the U.S.

But, of course, that's all Communism, so will be a non-starter for a whole shitload of brainwashed people here.

https://i.imgflip.com/7uw5yj.png?a482136

https://www.shutterstock.com/image-p...05122.jpg[

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Originally Posted by gtid

Park city has always sucked

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I mean - it didn't get the nickname "Park Shitty" for no reason. :D

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Originally Posted by summit

You raised the point. I discussed it. Worked up? Hardly. I don't have a dog in this fight other than seeing folks I know get hosed by Vail, knowing that Vail Resorts leadership fucked the pooch and I hope the patrollers get a win.

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I mean - I don't *directly* have a dog in this fight, as I'm not in a union nor have I ever been in one. But I think we *all* have a dog (indirectly) in the issue of seeing wealth inequality addressed in this country.

And I think unions have been pretty key in a lot of 1st world countries in at least making the inequality a little less... stark, shall we say?

I was in a union for 5 years. Good old Teamsters. There is good and bad just like everyone says, it was super fun breaking peoples knees for instance. My current job isn't union but is still a good job because of the locals around the country that keep my company on its toes. They treat us well to keep us from having the desire to organize.

I'm waiting to hear the details of this agreement. Happy the parties could come to agreement. It also relieves some stress on me, since we have a mini trip planned to PC, and we are not monied enough to be able to afford to blow off non refundable hotel reservations and flights, or change our dates on a whim.

Macro America seems to be a shithole without a compass, micro America seems to be much more sane. Focus on the micro.

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2025/01...-vail-resorts/


https://www.sltrib.com/news/environm...-mountain-ski/

wage increase.
longevity pay scale.

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Originally Posted by uglymoney

I was in a union for 5 years. Good old Teamsters. There is good and bad just like everyone says, it was super fun breaking peoples knees for instance.

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lol

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Originally Posted by skiJ

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2025/01...-vail-resorts/


https://www.sltrib.com/news/environm...-mountain-ski/

wage increase.
longevity pay scale.

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I really question just how long Vail had this offer on the table. I suspect it was there for a while despite what the union claimed (or at least very close to it). The real cost was in the health care benefits, which the union folded on the second they had to start paying the striking patrollers and was clearly what Vail was fighting against.

Good on the patrol though for getting both entry level and long term employee wages bumped. Seems like the right number balancing the training and skillsets necessary and the inherent surplus of qualified applicants. The last round of negotiations didn't really help the established members so it is good to see both get their due.

bless your heart

Keystone Patrollers have entered the chat.

https://www.9news.com/article/money/...0-a8bf4dc6fb2a

Class action lawsuit by pissed off guests has started

https://www.kpcw.org/ski-resorts/202...rk-city-strike

They are not super far in the process. Much discontent. I am very hopefuly the resolution in PC will give the framework needed.

Class action: Fucking people. So entitled. No doubt, most of the class consists of winey ass rich trustifarians who want their children to have bedroom library shelves filled with participation trophies.

Patrollers: thank you for your service. Litigants: eat shit.

.....and a new rock opera coming to a theatre near you. I can almost hear the music: "Vail can you hear me. I'm a flame, and I'm going to lick your face. Don't fuck with us one percenters. We're going to make your existence a disgrace. Vail. Vail, Vail..."

Justified or not, I kind of expect Epic passes to more expensive next year.

Might also be a new CEO at Vail.

^^^If they passed on the cost with a 10% markup, you’d be looking at ~3-4% increase. So $30-40?

And agreed that management heads will likely roll. Not sure if it will be the lady of SUF’s dreams, but likely whoever led the negotiations and maybe PCMR’s GM

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Originally Posted by summit

Well you have fallen for the union dream of "they must cave. We have all the power." Well, why not ask for $35/hr starting then? $40/hr? Why shouldn't a rookie patroller make as much as that communications senior manager? If your patroller union strategy is: "we'll make them look bad, piss off some customers, hit their stock prices, hit some revenue, use social pressure" and you conclude that is the ultimate high ground... well why not $50/hr?

Because the patrol doesn't have all the power. They do have some, but they can't dictate terms. Understand Vail fucked up hard core by not fixing this ahead of a conflict and strike, but now that they are here, look at VR's hand and strategic outlook vs your "why not $30/hr?":

$30/hr starting for PCMR patrol will be a neon sign in the sky to not just every patrol at every mountain, but every job to unionize and threaten to strike.
VR's business model probably doesn't work long term if labor costs rise 50%.
Vail has 42 mountains, so losing rev and rep at one sucks, but not as much as mass unionization and labor costs everywhere rising
Vail has FAR deeper pockets than those ski patrollers do. They can outslast them short term easy peasy. They can weather temporary stock price declines, lift line chants, and scoldings from the local government. The patrollers have bills to pay and the gofundme won't last long. They'll cave, or they'll quit.
$30/hr is far above what other low-barrier-to-entry jobs-with-perks start at, and almost double what new EMTs make in other jobs. That means that a crap ton of people will line up to work for lower than 30... oh wait they already have.

That's VR's strategy position.

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This ^^^ aged well. I want to hear more about how Vail would just wait them out.

From https://www.deseret.com/utah/2025/01...-vail-resorts/

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The newly ratified agreement addresses wages, benefits and career sustainability, including:

A $2 per hour raise for entry-level patrollers and mountain safety personnel to $23 an hour.
An average $4 an hour raise for tenured patrollers, with some of the most experienced workers, such as snow safety specialists, receiving an average increase of $7.75 per hour.
Enhanced parental leave policies and educational opportunities
A restructured wage scale designed to encourage long-term career growth and ensure the retention of highly skilled patrollers
Wage parity with non-unionized Vail Resorts

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Sure sounds like management pretty much caved on the wage demands. My back of the cocktail napkin math sez overall hourly comp went up by about $3.50/hr.*

The GofundMe proceeds kept the strikers pretty whole for the last two weeks.

Reports are the settlement will cost the company $900k per year. Extending that increase across all 42 resorts (a huge overstatement) would cost MTN $38 million/yr. IOW way less than a 5% increase in total labor costs compared to last year total of $732 million.

And the shareholders have taken a $370 million hit in value since the strike started. That’s after a $3 increase at todays close.

I would expect this will become a case study in some MBA program. Course title - The Epic Fuck Up of a Labor Negotiation.



* Additional cost of $900k/yr / 204 patrollers / 1200hrs per year = $3.67/hr. The 1200 hrs assumes 20% are FTYR and the remainder seasonal for 6 months.

As expected, class action filed.

https://www.kpcw.org/ski-resorts/202...rk-city-strike

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Originally Posted by Skistack

As expected, class action filed.

https://www.kpcw.org/ski-resorts/202...rk-city-strike

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How does that have any legs?

It doesn’t have to have merit in regular people’s eyes. The objective is to grind the company down with legal cost/distractions and ugly SEC filings to extort a settlement (usually covered by the company’s general liability policy), of which plaintiff’s lawyers get 1/3.

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Originally Posted by schindlerpiste

Class action: Fucking people. So entitled. No doubt, most of the class consists of winey ass rich trustifarians who want their children to have bedroom library shelves filled with participation trophies.

Patrollers: thank you for your service. Litigants: eat shit.

.....and a new rock opera coming to a theatre near you. I can almost hear the music: "Vail can you hear me. I'm a flame, and I'm going to lick your face. Don't fuck with us one percenters. We're going to make your existence a disgrace. Vail. Vail, Vail..."

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You know the target of the suit is VC, not the patrollers - right?

Fuck Vail, ticket holders have every right to file a CA lawsuit against them. Vail lied about long lift wait times, removed the open terrain metric from their website, and scrubbed any mention of the strike off their social media. People arriving during the holidays had no idea what was going on. Took two weeks for Vail acknowledge the situation publicly.

America is a lawsuit crazy country. No doubt there were lots of lawyers waiting in those long PCMR lines over the holidays. Put those law degrees to work!

so wait... through this whole thread, there's a constant drumbeat of "fuck vail"and now somebody is actually trying to do it (albeit maybe not in the best way) and people are bitching about that too... Oh wait, this is TGR.... carry on.

I don’t think the idea of a lawsuit is that insane but I’m not a lawyer. Companies should have an obligation to make a full faith effort to deliver on the goods they sold. Vail’s model revolves around selling skiing before it’s delivered. While Vail obviously makes no promises on how much terrain they will provide - the reasonable expectation is terrain closure would be due to conditions / weather outside of Vail’s control - not an unwillingness to pay market rate for labor.

Deer Valley being right next door with more terrain open while paying ~$26/hr is a pretty big black mark on vail’s choices going in to the season. It’s not like the patrollers introduced their demands in late December. This could have been resolved in October.

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Originally Posted by TheK12

so wait... through this whole thread, there's a constant drumbeat of "fuck vail"and now somebody is actually trying to do it (albeit maybe not in the best way) and people are bitching about that too... Oh wait, this is TGR.... carry on.

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I find it really hard to get worked up when the vacation they are suing over probably cost more than most Vail employees make in a season. It's more like watching a game and wishing both teams could lose.

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Originally Posted by bamboocoreONLY

uhhh, and also every single PC local who had to deal with angry people in shops, restaurants, etc.

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You missed the rest of my quote.
Point being epic pass holders that didn’t experience pc strike have no clue and don’t care.

Yeah. Sucked for locals. But I bet you renew if that’s your home mountain.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TBS

It doesn’t have to have merit in regular people’s eyes. The objective is to grind the company down with legal cost/distractions and ugly SEC filings to extort a settlement (usually covered by the company’s general liability policy), of which plaintiff’s lawyers get 1/3.

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Is Gerry Spence even alive?
Fringe tasseled cowboy jacket to the rescue!

Storm Skiing Podcast has a fresh and good interview with Max Magill, President of the PC Patrol union. Stuart throws soft balls and doesn't come back to questions that are evaded, but the podcast is still usually informative and a good listen. This is a change up, and unlike the normal CEO types Stuart interviews, Max gives straight, and imo, thoughtful answers.

Kinda surprised Stuart did this as buttery as he is with the stuffed shirts, but he did. Good on him.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/7JE...RVGNNTSilBxDWQ

Sent from my SM-S911U using Tapatalk

^^^^Great piece. Thanks for sharing. Usually I can’t sit thru one hour-plus podcasts. This one was an exception.

Sounds like Vail really screwed the pooch on the negotiations. You’re not gonna get far when your first counter to the unions wage increases is to cut overall wages - especially after sitting on the union’s proposal for months. Mgt tried to stall in an effort to crush the union, and got crushed themselves..

Heartwarming to hear how on his first day back, the Union prez came into a lodge to fill his water bottle and got an ovation from the guests.

I was impressed with Max Macgill. The guy seemed to have his shit together.

One thing that jumped out at me - 70% of single family homes in Park City are vacation rentals. Guessing they are owned as second/third/fourth homes, used a couple of weeks per year and rented the rest of the time. And hotel rooms go begging. Unaffordable housing anyone?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by schindlerpiste

Class action: Fucking people. So entitled. No doubt, most of the class consists of winey ass rich trustifarians who want their children to have bedroom library shelves filled with participation trophies.

.....and a new rock opera coming to a theatre near you. I can almost hear the music: "Vail can you hear me. I'm a flame, and I'm going to lick your face. Don't fuck with us one percenters. We're going to make your existence a disgrace. Vail. Vail, Vail..."

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I would be interested to hear why you are opposed to the lawsuit considering your previous occupation.....

I think it is going to be hard to get the case to a courtroom given the contract Vail makes you sign when purchasing an Epic Pass, which bars the passholder from bringing a class action lawsuit. Personally, I think the lawsuit has merit and that Vail did purposefully deceive its customers with the handling of the strike. But I'm no lawyer so.....

Regardless, I suspect season passes may get more expensive next year.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TBS

One thing that jumped out at me - 70% of single family homes in Park City are vacation rentals. Guessing they are owned as second/third/fourth homes, used a couple of weeks per year and rented the rest of the time. And hotel rooms go begging. Unaffordable housing anyone?

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Welcome to the reality of the western ski town. See also: Jackson, Steamboat, Ketchum, Vail, Tahoe, Aspen, Telluride, Mammoth Lakes, Breckenridge, Whistler, Big Sky...

^ yep the list goes on. Great if you are on that train. Not so much if not. I'll take our system over dprk though

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Originally Posted by byates1

^ yep the list goes on. Great if you are on that train. Not so much if not. I'll take our system over dprk though

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Ya never know, N. Korea has some potential for excellent skiing. Maybe invite Kim Jong to the Beav summit and get the lay of the land.

Maybe the beav summit will soften his heart and we can all acquire all the luxury slopeside property over there!

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Originally Posted by MarsB

Welcome to the reality of the western ski town. See also: Jackson, Steamboat, Ketchum, Vail, Tahoe, Aspen, Telluride, Mammoth Lakes, Breckenridge, Whistler, Big Sky...

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Hmmm, here in Central OR (Bend & vicinity) short term rentals make up about 10% of the housing stock. So the 70% ratio in PC surprised me.

But there’s no slopeside accommodations at Mt Bachelor, and all the lift-served skiing around here is on USFS land.

It's definitely not 70% in my neighborhood in Snowmass.
Multi family, maybe.

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Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper

Justified or not, I kind of expect Epic passes to more expensive next year.

Might also be a new CEO at Vail.

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https://www.instagram.com/share/_pHykiCOh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MarsB

Welcome to the reality of the western ski town. See also: Jackson, Steamboat, Ketchum, Vail, Tahoe, Aspen, Telluride, Mammoth Lakes, Breckenridge, Whistler, Big Sky...

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Why build and run a hotel, where you lose money in bad seasons, have to manage employees, keep guests happy etc etc, when you can sell houses and condos, walk away from the hassles, and let the owners deal with the risk and the hassles.

Or just take the commission on the sale of OPM: https://www.slifersmithandframpton.com/places/ (50% owned by MTN).