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Ah, now were getting somewhere. Leaving the outside ski behind is something that I have had to focus on not doing with other skis in the past, but it seemed like I could overcome it/get past it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustonen
I’m sure I have loads of bad habits engrained at this point but I’ve never really had a ski that I thought much about after a handful of runs on it.
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Likely not the answer you're looking for, but based on your previous ski, I bet you'd be happier on the 184. Tip dive isn't something I've personally experienced on these.Quote:
Originally Posted by rod9301
Yah, ^ this all sounds right; they're a pretty unreal Blackcomb DD for traditional folks like us. I have 50 some days on my pair and have hardly grabbed anything else this year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandit Man
Sorry you're not getting along with em. As Bandit said above though, none of this ^ is super surprising. They definitely fall into the metal lam charger camp with similar characteristics to that class, the rocker profile and sidecut just make em more accessible IME. Great DD for a place like Blackcomb (mostly open spaces), and while I like em in steeps (I just like steeps), in 2 and 3D, I also generally ski a turn or two ahead and try not to stop in sketchy places, which lines up well with the K108s attributes (min speed but no max kinda ski). And if I'm skiing moguls, I fucked up. Hope you find the unicorn you're looking for! 6'2/195#, on the 191 at plus 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by zion zig zag
Not trying to be snarky when I ask if you have a true bar? Edge high could cause this but that can't be diagnosed over the internet.Quote:
Originally Posted by zion zig zag
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Btw, on my k108, I've been crossing tips too. I'm going to check the tune, did are 3 days from new
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I do not, but I could probably have a shop check? If this were the case and it was a tune problem, wouldn’t it show up on groomers as well? As far as I know, this has only happened off trail, which leads me to believe its my (lack of) technique not clicking with the ski.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shorty_J
Edit: looks like Rod has had this happen too?
Powerful traditional skis are particularly sensitive to the tune. A good friend was just complaining about her M102s being “hooky” and demanding, but a basic hand tune (2 degree side, 1 degree base, and light gummy 12” back from the tip and tail) and she’s loving them. I wouldn’t expect Volkls to be railed, but worth checking.Quote:
Originally Posted by zion zig zag
I got a few days on my new (to me) K108's 184's that I got off another member here. The first few runs I tried them I took them right off and went back to my M102's. The tips were everywhere when trying to get them on edge and go through bumpy stuff on the groomers and in the trees. Thought these weren't going to be my skis.
The group I was staying with in SLC had a set of these same skis and feeling the edges back to back, these were like a razor blade compared to the others that had a bunch of days on them (which the owner was getting along with). A round of de-tuning from the local shop, and they were still quite a bit sharper than the other guys skis, but MUCH improved on the slope. I could actually move these things around and get the tails to release when I needed them to. These things are rippers now.
I had to detune the tips on mine. I was crossing the tips, which i can't remember the last time this happened with all my other skis.
Fixed the problem
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Ha,I guess I should’ve (de)tuned them before deciding they weren’t for me? Glad they are working for you now.Quote:
Originally Posted by GHILL28
Bandit man - where do you have yours mounted. I love my 102s so much thinking about picking these up (184 as well) but would probably want to mount a cm or two forward.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandit Man
I initially mounted my 177 k108s on the more forward line and the tips were diving too much in powder, so i remounted on the back line, recommended, and problem solved
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Ah that's right, they were yours. I think we were dealing via text and I forgot what the TGR handle was.Quote:
Originally Posted by zion zig zag
The binding mounting ended up with true center closer to +1 than on the rec line with the heel plate being moved, so I may think about re-mounting them again at some point if there's adequate space between the hole edges. Not sure yet. The edge tuning was the main thing so they do smear around consistently on steep bumpy stuff between the trees really well now, but then want to be going mach 10 on the open choppy stuff too. Neat skis.
I’m on the rear line for all my recent Volkls, and I’m only in a 295-mm BSL. I like driving the shovels and with that large sweet spot, it feels perfect for 184’s.Quote:
Originally Posted by MD12
On the topic of hooky K108’s, as has been shared, it’s all about detuning. My K108’s are soooo easy to slide the tails around, especially when scrubbing speed above 50-mph and coming to a quick stop. Might be the easiest ski I have to perform this maneuver on.
Also, I’ll admit that the long-ish rocker but minimal splay might give some pause on how aggressive to get with detuning. It was a progression for me, but I feel like detuning really allows the 3D sidecut to shine, especially in heavy, dense snow.
Another Katana in the wild.
6 inches new on top of variable yesterday at Targhee. Leftovers today and tomorrow should be another powder day. For the second season Katana goes along on western road trips.
Attachment 452832
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Just mounted these up for a buddy. Quite envious. Good thing we have the same BSL.
I told him to get the 192 dynastar m-free 108s a few years ago and he went 182 instead and was under-gunned. I reckon these 184s I recommended will do the trick and open his eyes.
Attachment 452870
Spent the morning skiing 14” of untracked dense two layer powder with my 184 Katanas mounted on the back line for bsl 305. No tip dive and able to make any turn shape without effort as long as you keep some forward pressure on them. Smooth as silk and nimble if you want them to be. I thought my Revolt 114s were better. They’re not.
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Interesting take, especially given you’ve skied the Revolt 114. K108’s are surprisingly good in pow and stellar in the leftovers.Quote:
Originally Posted by swissbro
I mounted mine first at +2 and they keep diving in powder. Went to back line and they ski great in powder and everywhere else.Quote:
Originally Posted by JackSkier
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I rediscovered K108 for myself today. Not sure what Solitude reported today but caught afternoon rope drop in Honeycomb after 3 days of snow and man these rip pow. Usually for these conditions I would grab BMT 122 or Revolt 121 but today I didn't expect any significant accumulations and K108 didn't disappoint. They definitely don't float and smear like those mentioned above but I didn't notice any tip dive as long as they had some speed (I'm on 191, mounted at +5mm from the rear line). But they get even better once stuff is tracked out. Pure stability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandit Man
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4 days at Alyeska on beat up conditions with no fresh snow since the prior week. Saddest thing ever. These things are psycho fast on the groomers, holy hell. Very composed and stable and easy to pivot going across the long narrow traverse lines much faster than I should have been.
The places where I noticed some issues were steep bumpy refrozen terrain (really hard conditions) and heavy chopped up cement. The hard bumps were taking me for a bit of a ride and more speed wasn't bringing them into more composure, and I was having a difficult time getting the tails to release in the cement stuff. This might have to do with the +1 mounting. Or the pilot. I noticed I would end up in the backseat a bit on the exit of really steep bumpy soft terrain turns (occasionally). That may be more on me.
There's one chute up there where you have to smear down through a crack for a ways. Skis were happy as can be sliding sideways down over chalky bumps.
I picked up a 2nd set of 184's to try to mount some demo bindings to (in the hope that the previous drillings will work for some demo bindings I have kicking around). Reading through here it sounds like most people with the 184's are ending up back at the line after experimenting with forward mounts. I don't think I'll have quite enough room to re-mount my current ones since they're more like +0.75.
Is there any noticeable difference between the 22/23 model and the 21/22? On soothski, it looks like there is, for example in the straight pull tape length measurement.
I have the 20-21 184 (black and yellow) and just bought a backup pair of 2023 184’s. They have the same straight pull length.Quote:
Originally Posted by roQer
Same thing here. Have the yellow ones and new darker colored ones and they're dimensionally the same.
Anyone want to play a scenarios game? …skier is 6’, 185-190. Traditional. Likes heavy metal skis. Closest skis in the Quiver include 184 og m102, 187XXL and 192 UL GPO with guardians. Love all these skis. feeling like the XXL is a little long in the tooth and the GPO tends a little wide for a travel ski. Might be time for a k108??
Resort boot is a Mach 1 LV 130. Touring boot is a scarpa quattro xt with a shorter BSL.
What do you mount on a katana k108?
Option 1: duke pt 16 on the rear line for the Mach 1 BSL. Move heel fwd for the scarpa. ski it mostly at the resort but also can do some side country in Tahoe or on travel with the touring boots (one does not travel with two pair of boots so might be bummed trying to ski these hard in bounds with the scarpa?).
Option 2: put pivots on the k108 and forget about it as a sidecountry ski. get yet another 108 chargerish type ski - say the mfree108 and put dukes on that.
Option 3 - n: suggestions from the collective!
Edit to add: another pondering is dukes on vwerks katanas and pivots on k108. But seriously? A quiver of m102, k108 and vwk??? And would I just unload the GPO at that point? It’s also such a good ski…maybe m102 + k108 is too much overlap and I should just forget about k108 and put dukes on the mfree? It’s a wonder how I get any sleep these days…
Thoughts?
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Have had all 3 and don't see any overlap between K108 and M102 as long as they are both mounted with alpine clamps. There's no way I would want K108 even as a remotely side country setup. KVW would be way better contender, specially if you size down from your K108.
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That’s kinda what I figured. Can’t imagine going shorter than 184 in the kvw but that ski does seem like a great all’rounder for the soft. Just not sure about dukes vs just straight tech bindings for a kvw.
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If you're asking where to mount, i had the k108 mounted forward and i had to re drill it. It was way too forward and it made it somewhat difficult in powder.
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The K108 is too forward?Quote:
Originally Posted by rod9301
You mounted behind the rear line?
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No, center after the 1st was to forward.. even so, the binding seems mounted in the center, compared to the old katanas
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Ok... different strokes for different folks... I like that middle line for how I ski but I haven't heard of anyone going behind the back line.Quote:
Originally Posted by rod9301
Sounds like you are consistent with that.
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Lots of Katanas left at our shop. 40 off. We don’t sell online but I can make it happen to get them to people here.
Thanks, Sylvan! Great data points! Super helpful.
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First day on the 191 K108s. White ribbon type thing but I could get a feel for them.
I really like them so far. They feel like Volkls, surprise surprise. Feel kind of like my M4 Mantras and the old Katanas, but the 3D isn’t as pivoty as full rocker obviously. I need more time to see if K108s are as good as those older ones.
3D radius doesn’t feel unpredictable at all yet, hopefully I feel the same way on steeps. I thought it would be unpredictable like asym was for me, but it’s not even close. So far 3D feels pivoty when I want ski to, and not pivoty when I don’t.
I’m surprised by how soft and easy going they are. I wanted an easier going Pro Rider/Monster 108 and these are definitely that. Quite a bit easier going than I expected honestly, the tips do flap a little but turn radius still feels very long when not pivoting, and they feel very stable so far. More stable than the longest length Enforcers for sure, but not quite as damp. I need more time.
These could be my new daily driver. They have some traits I like compared to M4 Mantras, but lets see if they are nearly as good in bumps. The on call pivotyness makes me think they might be decent in big bumps.
M102 is the best bump ski at that width I've used. 3D is such black magic but it just works. Katana should play like it's only slightly fatter.
I think I’m going to really like the 3D radius. I wish I didn’t wait this long to try. I don’t think the pivot magic I felt initially is solely due to that though. When de-cambered, the Katanas have a pretty darn long rocker profile. This combo of 3D turns and long, low rocker almost felt like it mimicked low full rocker. A lot of the benefits of full rocker, without the greasyness. These Katanas are very interesting skis.Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeMagnet
I haven’t gotten them into linked bumps, but in the slightly bumpier part of the death ribbon at Alpine Meadows today I could feel/hear the fatter tips touching if I made a mistake (I was making a lot, first day out). That’ll probably get better as I make less mistakes, and I will get used to them, but I will be taking these into some big funky moguls for sure later on. I doubted these huge tips would feel like such a long radius as they are on paper, but they actually ski very long radius turns. Interesting.
I probably should have mounted +1. I mounted on the most rearward line. Again my first day out, but I seemed off the sweet spot a bit unless I was really driving them. I was also in new boots too though, and on the white ribbon, so not gonna judge mount point yet. No big deal, at least these are more driveable than my M4 Mantras, which makes it easy to ski that way, and they aren’t punishing if you do get outside of their preferred stance. They are softer than M4 Mantra, but heavier and more stable and more driveable.
I want to try Mantra 102s now lol, both the newer ones and the 2020s
Glad you enjoyed your first day out on the Katanas. They aren’t a perfect ski, but are a very capable and versatile charger that works well for western skiers as a daily driver. The K108 skis a little “easier” than the OG M102, IMO. But the K108 being a little heavier, just flattens out everything, especially late day chop.
Stoked for you, man! I like your use of "greasiness" to describe the relative difference of full rocker vs that low slung rocker, 3D/microcamber masterpiece. They did nail that and the geometry, maybe could have reeled that tip in a smidge. Over 100g more/ski than the 191 M102 but Katana 108s are dynamite in pow too. I've skied the 191 K108 on the rear line and middle/+1 and both are great you're not missing much they have a huge sweet spot and are more fun when driven hard anyway. Welcome to the fan club.
I feel that the og katanas were better in powder then the 108.
I tried the k108 in bumps this April and skiing the zipper miner they are a handful, probably because they are wide and fairly stiff.
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I’m in the club!Quote:
Originally Posted by bry
I’m used to big skis in bumps. These seem like they will be better than Monster 108s and obviously they won’t kill you like Pro Riders will if you venture into some moguls for a few runs.Quote:
Originally Posted by rod9301
I think I’m going to like these in pow, although maybe not as much as 2014 Katanas. I can’t expect them to be better, being thinner, heavier and more cambered. I like Monster 108s in pow and everyone else thinks they’re submarines, I’m weird. The softer flex of these Katana 108s seems fun in soft snow, but I have wider skis for anything deep.