Do Mormons really affect you?

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Originally Posted by spthomson

Not everyone who stands by creationism is a "religious zealot"; hopefully, that isn't what you were claiming. But, your statements above do fall into the classic evolutionist logical fallacy of false distinction, relegating creationism to a different category, thereby falsely nullifying it. Science is described as what is observable, repeatable, and falsifiable. With that definition, creationism is not science. Yet, neither is macroevolution. (I don't know any creationist who denies microevolution).

The false distinction is between evolution and creationism as "science versus religion" instead of evidence for evolution versus evidence for creationism. If the argument never gets to that level, free inquiry is stifled, and there's no point in even trying to present scientific evidence for creation.

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Is there scientific evidence for creationism? I have never seen any, nor have I heard of any. If you have more information on this subject, however, I would be happy to check it out. Everything I have ever heard about creationism puts it in the category of believing there is a god, which I do not, and that this god created the universe. This seems to me to be a religious belief, and not a scientific one. If you can give me a non-religious argument for creationism I will listen. The evolutionists have given me non-religious arguments, and those have made sense. But to teach creationism in schools as if it were science is incredibly prejudiced against people who are atheists, as it presupposes a supreme being. If creationism is to be taught in schools, it must be done in a non-religious way, which does not seem possible. I do not believe in your god or anyone else's, and I do not think the beliefs of one religion should be viewed as anything other than religion.

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Originally Posted by Long duc dong

Is there scientific evidence for creationism? I have never seen any, nor have I heard of any. If you have more information on this subject, however, I would be happy to check it out. Everything I have ever heard about creationism puts it in the category of believing there is a god, which I do not, and that this god created the universe. This seems to me to be a religious belief, and not a scientific one. If you can give me a non-religious argument for creationism I will listen. The evolutionists have given me non-religious arguments, and those have made sense. But to teach creationism in schools as if it were science is incredibly prejudiced against people who are atheists, as it presupposes a supreme being. If creationism is to be taught in schools, it must be done in a non-religious way, which does not seem possible. I do not believe in your god or anyone else's, and I do not think the beliefs of one religion should be viewed as anything other than religion.

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So I think that God is energy. Energy produced life. Creationism is pretty real then, right? (and I'm not talking in an Adam and Eve type way)

isn't it ridiculous, and utterly ineffective to attempt to classify an entire region with petty little circumstantial generalizations.

as is true in any major city, you find what you're looking for. you surround yourself with like-minded people who share interests, values, political ideals etc..

2 million people. a dwindling 40% of those LDS. and as a matter of fact, i for one happen to really enjoy many of the solid, honest, integrity-based results of the mormon culture here. it has it's struggles and annoyances, as does any city. those who have travelled and moved around a bit will know this well.
but geographically, socially, culturally and otherwise, it's a pretty damned fantastic place if you ask me..

after years away from Utah - i moved back. partly because the skiing is better, partly because of the beautiful 4 seasons, partly because of the proximitiy to un-paralleled recreational options, partly because of the possibility for growth and progress that SLC faces over the course of the next 5+ years.

i felt that it was harder to get a drink in Washington State than it is here in UT. and the snow quality just isn't even comparable...

I don't have the time to follow this entire thread and I'm glad. I'm an atheist and moving back to Utah has been the best decision I ever made. I believe differently than the dominant religion here, but I can respect their beliefs and they (my family) respect mine. I had the full gym membership for a period of my life and now I have no affiliation what-so-ever. I feel like I have a good grasp of both sides. Live and let live. The people I know in the religion are some of the kindest and most caring people anywhere. It's a religion of family and of service to your fellow man. I don't think the religion is founded on anything even remotely real, but I do know the people that really "get" the religion or "get" any religion for that matter are better people for it. There are always people that don't get it and mess it up for others like anything in life. The humanitarian efforts I watch people like my mom working on constantly completely blow me away. I may think her religion makes no sense, but there's no way to say what she's doing is wrong. I'm sure the people of the religion being called out in this thread have done far more for humanitarian efforts than those taking shots.

It'll be interesting raising our daughter in a way where we can share our beliefs as parents (and let her come to her own conclusions), but also teach respect for the beliefs of others and maybe why they might believe the things they do.

BTW, I'm sure this thread is hugely offensive to many maggots you may call friends. I wouldn't say anything here that you wouldn't dare say to that maggot in person.

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Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

So I think that God is energy. Energy produced life. Creationism is pretty real then, right? (and I'm not talking in an Adam and Eve type way)

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But who/what created the "energy that is god". That's where creationism always falls short. Something had to create the creator...and how was the creator of the creator built... methinks primordial soup. ;)

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Originally Posted by meatdrink9

But who/what created the "energy that is god". That's where creationism always falls short. Something had to create the creator...and how was the creator of the creator built... methinks primordial soup. ;)

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That's some chicken before the egg type argument. I think your tee shirts need to have that fight enacted on them. And please send me one for my efforts.

not the pseudo theology.. because frankly, it fucking embarrassing.

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Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

So I think that God is energy.

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You're redefining god.

God is "a being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions." (American Heritage Dictionary)

Energy is energy.

You're confused.

And you never paid me for that 'Stars Skis and Hucks' DVD, bitch.

There is some next level shit goin down in this thread. Where is Summit's three page essay response when you need it?

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Originally Posted by Long duc dong

Is there scientific evidence for creationism? I have never seen any, nor have I heard of any. If you have more information on this subject, however, I would be happy to check it out. Everything I have ever heard about creationism puts it in the category of believing there is a god, which I do not, and that this god created the universe. This seems to me to be a religious belief, and not a scientific one. If you can give me a non-religious argument for creationism I will listen. The evolutionists have given me non-religious arguments, and those have made sense. But to teach creationism in schools as if it were science is incredibly prejudiced against people who are atheists, as it presupposes a supreme being. If creationism is to be taught in schools, it must be done in a non-religious way, which does not seem possible. I do not believe in your god or anyone else's, and I do not think the beliefs of one religion should be viewed as anything other than religion.

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Here's an interesting article on science and the attempt to prove creationism:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...rce_login=true

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Originally Posted by golden powder

big words make me cry, too. I think he's trying to say it's an apples vs oranges argument at the moment? I could be wrong.

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Viva - thanks for being nice. :biggrin:

I truly wasn't trying to impress with big words. I actually borrowed some of that explanation of false distinction in the context of creation vs. evolution. I recognized the logical fallacy, but was having a hard time explaining it succinctly.

I was just pointing out one of many logical fallacies often used by evolutionists which often stand in the way of openly looking at the evidence supporting each side. In this case, making it an argument of science vs religion often causes the evolutionist to say "end of story" instead of examining evidence for evolution vs. evidence for creation.

Clear as mud? ;)

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Originally Posted by Z

Where is Summit's three page essay response when you need it?

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That was funny. with bullet points

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Originally Posted by Bud Green

You're redefining god.

God is "a being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions." (American Heritage Dictionary)

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For fucks sake, we're talking about something totally illogical here, and you refer to the fucking dictionary. Next time we're discussing science, remind me to quote the Bible.

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Energy is energy.

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Yeah. Positive and negative. Good and bad. I'm definitley confused. :rolleyes:

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And you never paid me for that 'Stars Skis and Hucks' DVD, bitch.

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Well, if I ordered it from you, and if it ever arrived so I could watch the fucking thing, I might pay you for it. (wrong guy, Einstein)

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Originally Posted by Z

There is some next level shit goin down in this thread. Where is Summit's three page essay response when you need it?

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He's Jewish, so he'd just say that Mormons are full of shit. (and that Jesus was a good dude that did some charity work)

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Originally Posted by meatdrink9

I do know the people that really "get" the religion or "get" any religion for that matter are better people for it. There are always people that don't get it and mess it up for others like anything in life. The humanitarian efforts I watch people like my mom working on constantly completely blow me away. I may think her religion makes no sense, but there's no way to say what she's doing is wrong.

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I was thinking about this yesterday. Most religions teach people to act in similar ways: help their fellow man, raise their children to be good people, be honest, etc. No, you don't need to be involved in religion to do any of these things, but maybe the codification of this behavior that religion provides is beneficial to some people. There's really no denying the charity work done by many different religions has helped millions of people.

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Originally Posted by meatdrink9

But who/what created the "energy that is god".

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This gives a whole new meaning to the term "Big Bang" :fm:

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Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

Well, if I ordered it from you, and if it ever arrived so I could watch the fucking thing, I might pay you for it. (wrong guy, Einstein)

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aaahahahahahaaghghanaa

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Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

Next time we're discussing science, remind me to quote the Bible.

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There is no relation between science and mythology.

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Originally Posted by Bud Green

There is no relation between science and mythology.

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Are you calling the Mormon religion mythology? Better run dude. :biggrin:

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Originally Posted by meatdrink9

The people I know in the religion are some of the kindest and most caring people anywhere..

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so I guess they're not the kind of LDS who's core belief system involves thinking that Utah was and/or is destined to be their church state and that outsiders ruined it for them? I ask because I have run into those LDS, and they're not at all the kindest and most caring people anywhere, and I think, for me, they're the whole problem (as opposed to the good people you know). I know really good quality LDS folks too, but I still think their church and it's politics and a lot of it's members are wacko and I see the negative effects of it all around me in Utah.

Porter Rockwell trail in Sandy is named for a guy who was a mass murderer but was a hero to the LDS because he was killing enemies of the church. I think that kind of says it all...just that they're so proud of this guy and his religious zealot killings that they'd name a park trail after him. What an insult to have just moved here and see that.

Right accross the street from me is a mormon church yet i still do not know much about it, so this thread has been pretty interesting. As a layed back skier (as most of you are) i definetly fall into "live and let live" category. However, mr. Frorider brings up a good point:

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Originally Posted by frorider

Anyway, back to the 'live and let live' idea. Most of us say we're for that idea. Equality of beliefs, religions, cults, whatever. But in practice all belief systems are not equally valued in any society. For example, a small cult in India I read about in Harper's magazine that performs ritual eating of human flesh is unlikely to be the next hot religion in the USA (or India, for that matter). The old-school form of Mormonism that enshrined the polygamy ideal, and pressured young women and girls into a marriage that arguably was (and is) a form of statuatory rape became a real stumbling block toward larger societal acceptance and had to be nominally discarded by the church.

So society as a whole does draw the line somewhere, and the location of that line does change over time. Religions can adapt and evolve, or hold steadfast to a fundamentalist interpretation. I think it's dishonest to pretend that all of us equally value all belief systems. :

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Although this might be a misconception, and i dont wanna break open the whole feminist issue, whats up with the Mormon church not allowing wives to divorce their husbands, while their husbands can? Or what about that "secret password" that mormon men tell their wives so they can enter heaven. Kinda weird, please shed some light if iam wrong.

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Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

Well, if I ordered it from you, and if it ever arrived so I could watch the fucking thing, I might pay you for it. (wrong guy, Einstein)

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Originally Posted by Bud Green

FS: Stars Skis and Hucks

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Ten bucks post paid.

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Originally Posted by Blurred Elevens

Since it sucks so much, how about $5 postage paid? Cool?

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Originally Posted by Bud Green

You got it Blurred.

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Short term memory loss?

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Originally Posted by Bud Green

Short term memory loss?

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I recall you saying how super sweet the video was after that, and how you weren't going to sell it. Nice try jackoff.

Way to delete that thread too.

I was raised LDS, went on a mission and was married in a LDS Temple. I also have been kicked out of the LDS church (they are not real keen with drinking and testimonying).

To say I know a bit about the church is an understatement. I KNOW the doctrine, preached it - and converted dozens. I have read the book of mormon more times than most mormons. To date I doubt anyone on this board could stand toe to toe with me and know the bible better.

This all said, I am no longer a member of this faith. Yet I do respect them, thier families, and the values they stand for.

I know this board would not put up with this kind of bashing if it was regarding the jewish, muslim catholic or whatever faith.

In the future please restrain from making biased, blind, stupid as hell blanket statments from a topic you know so little about. So you knew a guy that was LDS & you didn't like him. Guess what - he was probably an ass, doesn't make that entire faith assholes.

I'm all for civilized discussion - but really, when you so randomly lash out on a subject you know so little about - I only see you as a narrow minded biggot that really should shut the fuck up. Don't make my excomunicated mormon ass kick yours.
F

I finally read this thread, I stayed away before because I figured it would devolve but, thankfully, it really didn't (not much).

I believe in love. Corny, but that's why we're here: To love, be loved, share love. That's what creates families, and friendships, and it's what bonds us.

The religion I was born into - I view it as a history story. One that has morphed over the years so much, that it barely resembles what really happened. But it's a story that bonds people of my family religion (thanks to things like the Holocaust), so I feel genetically connected.

What I believe strongly, meanwhile, is that no person should be persecuted or derided for having a strong belief in their story, faith, or religion - nor should they push their agenda, belief, faith or religion onto me through politics or government policies. Someone said a few pages ago (probably like 12 pages ago) - to each his own. To that I add: As long as no one is getting hurt