Loveland Pass avalanche 4.20.13

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Originally Posted by funkendrenchman

The question is did he take unnecessary risks or did he just not fully recognize the risks? That we may never know. Lou is saying someone with that level of experience, should be able to recognize the risks.

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I realize that, and really the only person who truly would know is Jerome and only if it was discussed openly in the group. Clearly they were suspicious of it which leads me to believe that they underestimated the potential size of the slide or just took a risk. Like I said I'm probably still a little bit too sensitive on the subject at this point in time. It's hard to see someone you respected and looked up to in the skiing community go out like that making mistakes like they did.

Maybe it's just me, but I think I'm picking up on a recurring theme of rationalizations in this thread. They run the full gambit from "should never have been out that day, period", to group size, bad decision making, faulty training, etc.

Whatever keeps you warm and smug at night I guess. Obviously mistakes were made; I just think it would be foolish to look at this incident and draw the conclusion "and this is why this could never happen to me".

Admittedly I am an inexperienced JONG, and a pussy to boot, but I'm comfortable in the knowledge that no amount of experience or education can eliminate all risk factors, even if you think they have. Sometimes the snowpack doesn't give a shit about your avy certs, the size of your group, or how well thought out your decision making process was. It swallows you and you die. End of story.

I've enjoyed following the discussion here, and have hopefully learned something as a result, but I think at least a few only came here for confirmation that this kind of thing could NEVER happen to them, which in my opinion is bullshit.

Carry on then...

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Originally Posted by bendtheski

Maybe it's just me, but I think I'm picking up on a recurring theme of rationalizations in this thread. They run the full gambit from "should never have been out that day, period", to group size, bad decision making, faulty training, etc.

Whatever keeps you warm and smug at night I guess. Obviously mistakes were made; I just think it would be foolish to look at this incident and draw the conclusion "and this is why this could never happen to me".

Admittedly I am an inexperienced JONG, and a pussy to boot, but I'm comfortable in the knowledge that no amount of experience or education can eliminate all risk factors, even if you think they have. Sometimes the snowpack doesn't give a shit about your avy certs, the size of your group, or how well thought out your decision making process was. It swallows you and you die. End of story.

I've enjoyed following the discussion here, and have hopefully learned something as a result, but I think at least a few only came here for confirmation that this kind of thing could NEVER happen to them, which in my opinion is bullshit.

Carry on then...

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Of course it could happen to any one of us ... unless you are not in avy terrain or the runout zone with known potentially catastrophic conditions. Bullshit is right! No other safe place to go ski trees? Bad logic = fail. Yes you can die ski mountaineering but your chances are much greater when you make fatal mistakes that should have been avoided.

Carry on ...

There a lot of things I'd comment on... I guess one thing I will say is this:

Staying home wasn't the right decision for the day. They did make mistakes. What is bothering a lot of people is that some of the mistakes they made are common, like available information to suggest unseasonable snowpack activity. Some would say the route errors were easy mistakes to make, the kind that even experienced and knowledgeable BC travelers might make sometimes when not 100% on their game. Most of the time, BC travelers get away with these mistakes and basic protocol violations.

Sometimes, the result is tragic.

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Originally Posted by Pinner

I've spent a fair bit of time learning about the course progression from the AIARE directors and consulted with them closely as we tweaked the FOBP curriculum into a solid, foundational awareness class-- a "pre level 1" if you will. It's been an eye-opening and humbling process.

Take it for what it's worth, but I strongly believe it's important that we all use the same vocabulary, base our assumptions about someone's level of training on the same criteria, and most significantly, acknowledge that as much as you think you know, there's a guy not far away who knows a LOT more than you. Nine times out of ten, they're quieter than you are. (interesting to note: I've never met anyone who told me they had a L3 without me asking.)

This is why we feel it is so important to be an apprentice and a mentor throughout your entire career as a backcountry skier. Personally, the older I get, the more friends I lose to the mountains, the humbler I become and the more I realize that I still have a shitload to learn.

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Agreed about the common understanding. Thing is, there are three Level 1 curricula I know of in North America alone - AIARE, AAI & CAA (AST1). Overlay the independent instructors with their own curriculum, and a common understanding isn't so easy.

I also struggle with how to adequately teach terrain ID and risk mitigation without A LOT of field time. Its a lot easier to recognize avalanche terrain from a long-distance photo than it is when you are standing right next to it, cold and tired. Like Pinner, the more I 'm in the BC, the more I realize I have a lot to learn

FOBP's program is great. Doesn't pretend to cover the same material as AIARE's level 1, but doesn't cost anything either. And based on FOBP's track record, it's probably saved a lot of lives.

So, what if "Level One" avy education was taught in smaller distinct modules, with a couple of field days devoted to each? For example a progression like...
1. Basic intro - like FOBP's program
2. Search and Rescue - including multiple burials
3. Basic Snow and Weather Science - Don't need to go beyond the basic crystal classes, focus on ice vs round vs square crystals, hoar formation and wind/radiation/temp effects.
4. Terrain ID and Mitigation - I think this part takes a season long mentor/apprentice program, to expose students to enough snow/weather/terrain conditions?
5. Psychology and group dynamics

This would cost people more money, but they would likely get deeper training too. Obviously doesn't mean they would better apply the info though...

RIP.

You can take issue with Lou Dawson's tone, but he is spot on from an assessment perspective.

I have skied 20+ years at Loveland Pass and have never skied into that drainage because its a nasty terrain trap.

AVOID TERRAIN TRAPS IN ALL BUT THE LOWEST DANGER AND EVEN THEN TRY TO AVOID!

Terrible, horror movie-like price that those guys paid for an error that only took 15 minutes in the making.

Manage your terrain choices when the avalanche danger is ANYTHING but LOW.

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Originally Posted by smitchell333

RIP.

You can take issue with Lou Dawson's tone, but he is spot on from an assessment perspective.

I have skied 20+ years at Loveland Pass and have never skied into that drainage because its a nasty terrain trap.

AVOID TERRAIN TRAPS IN ALL BUT THE LOWEST DANGER AND EVEN THEN TRY TO AVOID!

Terrible, horror movie-like price that those guys paid for an error that only took 15 minutes in the making.

Manage your terrain choices when the avalanche danger is ANYTHING but LOW.

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Never skied with Lou we have a few mutual friends going back to the CB days. I've heard a few tales of near misses. You might find this interesting:

http://www.wildsnow.com/avalanche-sa...l-dawson-1982/

by the by aint tossin stones I've made my share of dumbass moves

If you go to the circus enough times, eventually you will see an elephant. Even if you find elephants repulsive and avoid them studiously.

Condolences to everyone who knew and loved these men.

Attachment 137097

http://www.wildsnow.com/9980/sheep-c...he-site-visit/


Ouch.

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With all the sledders in Fernie who perished, to Romeo's passing, to Steven's Pass and now Loveland, this last two years has been a real wakeup call to look at the beast we are trying to tame.

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Indeed, gives pause to the folks who repeatedly insist it is perfectly safe to tour during periods of Considerable+.

While it may be safe and educational if you possess the skills, it may be a lousy time to try and learn those skills unless you have a solid mentor.

blah blah blah, let me tell you what happened, even tho I wasn't even there, blah blah blah,

hang out with some people who've been fucked before, it'll really spin your head, ever actually been caught in an avalanche? ever been lefted for dead and have to self rescue? ever walked away from a partner who ended up dying? You ever hang out with some widow who lost her husband? This shit happens alot, good people get fucked by god, and the biggest bullshit part is all these people telling them how it was, how it should have been, its so easy to sit back and case study something, like you know what the fuck to do, but it's a different ball game when your neck deep in the shit, you people make me sick get over all your good decision bullshit

bad stuff happens and when god decides it's your number, it's time and there isn't shit you can do, you can sit inside hiding from the end, but that isn't the way anyone should be living their life, don't sit back and second guess a bunch of dead people

No one is second guessing, people are just pointing out their mistakes.

Sucks big time.

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Originally Posted by fastfred

blah blah blah, let me tell you what happened, even tho I wasn't even there, blah blah blah,

hang out with some people who've been fucked before, it'll really spin your head, ever actually been caught in an avalanche? ever been lefted for dead and have to self rescue? ever walked away from a partner who ended up dying? You ever hang out with some widow who lost her husband? This shit happens alot, good people get fucked by god, and the biggest bullshit part is all these people telling them how it was, how it should have been, its so easy to sit back and case study something, like you know what the fuck to do, but it's a different ball game when your neck deep in the shit, you people make me sick get over all your good decision bullshit

bad stuff happens and when god decides it's your number, it's time and there isn't shit you can do, you can sit inside hiding from the end, but that isn't the way anyone should be living their life, don't sit back and second guess a bunch of dead people

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Um, I've been caught in an avalanche before and known people who have died in avalanches, these folks fucked up and it was completely avoidable. You sound like a retard and someone who will learn nothing from this.

The biggest take away for me is that safe route finding is one of the hardest and most misunderstood parts of BC skiing. We see people on here ask about it all the time, and this incident just speaks to how difficult it can be and how even experts can make mistakes for one reason or another. RIP.

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Originally Posted by Ernest_Hemingway

If you go to the circus enough times, eventually you will see an elephant. Even if you find elephants repulsive and avoid them studiously.

Condolences to everyone who knew and loved these men.

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Priceless.

There was mention earlier of seeing this show from the front row or the back. I saw it from my in-laws in NC that I left CO to visit the morning this happened. I return tomorrow, and hope the circus has left town for the season.

Stay safe folks.

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Originally Posted by snapt

The biggest take away for me is that safe route finding is one of the hardest and most misunderstood parts of BC skiing. We see people on here ask about it all the time, and this incident just speaks to how difficult it can be and how even experts can make mistakes for one reason or another. RIP.

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honestly, it's not all that hard. slope angle, terrain features, and how they do or don't intermingle. not saying anyones born knowing the stuff and one does have to put some time in, but.........

low angle (under 30 degrees). learn it. learn what it looks like. learn what it feels like. learn how to pick it out from afar and see if you can keep it and or see it seperate from steeper suspect slopes/terrain traps. conditions for the day have yer hairs standing on end? low angle. at least you'll get out there and view the suspect from afar, admire and appreciate. breathe it in.

i'm not a snowpit guy, don't dig em, not interested in em. i can poke down with pole handle or gloved hand and feel for the weak layers/sliding surfaces that i need to know about. beyond that it's just weather and angles/terrain. keep it as simple and straightforward as possible. is it safe or is it not. we all have to decide...............for ourselves.

rog

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Originally Posted by whipski

Never skied with Lou we have a few mutual friends going back to the CB days. I've heard a few tales of near misses. You might find this interesting:

http://www.wildsnow.com/avalanche-sa...l-dawson-1982/

by the by aint tossin stones I've made my share of dumbass moves

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Love the stories from guys who out getting it before it became a thing.

I did a season in CB around 85 or 6 and was too drunk and stupid even know people were going out in the Elks etc. back then. I don't remember tracks anywhere OB back then, other than the W hill getting tagged in Gunnison.

This lou dawson guy is a total d-bag, he drives three hours to go investigate some avalanche and does a write up on his blog about how these guys fucked up. Way to go lou, I'm glad your the smartest guy in colorado. Way to piss all over 5 dead people. Way to point out how they fucked up and how smart you are.

His nice little write up is pure self promotion so he can tell all his advertisers that he's getting mad hits to his blog and keep collecting money. Lou, five people haven't even been laid to rest and you shit all over them with that blog post. The rest of you people are "trying to learn from this" There isn't any learning, just pointing fingers and posturing get over yourselves, peoples lives have been turned up side down

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Originally Posted by fastfred

This lou dawson guy is a total d-bag, he drives three hours to go investigate some avalanche and does a write up on his blog about how these guys fucked up. Way to go lou, I'm glad your the smartest guy in colorado. Way to piss all over 5 dead people. Way to point out how they fucked up and how smart you are.

His nice little write up is pure self promotion so he can tell all his advertisers that he's getting mad hits to his blog and keep collecting money. Lou, five people haven't even been laid to rest and you shit all over them with that blog post. The rest of you people are "trying to learn from this" There isn't any learning, just pointing fingers and posturing get over yourselves, peoples lives have been turned up side down

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Maybe your time might be better served by going to counseling than wasting it on the internet. You sure come off as one angry dude.

Most of the commentary, including Lou's, comes from a place of trying to wrap our heads around how such 'experienced' bc skiers could make such an astounding mistake in route finding. It seems to defy all logic. I wish someone could drop in here and come up with a plausible explanation, as that would be the true learning experience.

I can understand the human factors that led to such a large tragedy, but I really can't comprehend such a route chosen by the smart and experienced guys that are being described. It feels like something is missing. I was really hoping the CAIC report and Lou's visit would shed some light, but it just left us with a stronger question, IMO.

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Originally Posted by Lindahl

Maybe your time might be better served by going to counseling than wasting it on the internet. You sure come off as one angry dude.

Most of the commentary, including Lou's, comes from a place of trying to wrap our heads around how such 'experienced' bc skiers could make such an astounding mistake in route finding. It seems to defy all logic. I wish someone could drop in here and come up with a plausible explanation, as that would be the true learning experience.

I can understand the human factors that led to such a large tragedy, but I really can't comprehend such a route chosen by the smart and experienced guys that are being described. It feels like something is missing. I was really hoping the CAIC report and Lou's visit would shed some light, but it just left us with a stronger question, IMO.

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Well said.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using TGR Forums

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Originally Posted by Lindahl

Most of the commentary, including Lou's, comes from a place of trying to wrap our heads around how such 'experienced' bc skiers could make such an astounding mistake in route finding...

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I get that. I really do. But there's a fine line between 'learning' from others mistakes and disaster porn and once a CAIC report comes out there's not much else you're going to 'learn' by visiting the site and doing amateur investigations. I highly doubt Lou's maliciously trying to gain page views by doing his site inspection, but it's silly to think there was actually a dire need for him to go skin around the accident site and act like Sherlock Holmes.

I'm putting 'learn' in quotes for a reason here too. Because I think a lot of American BC skiers get off on accidents like this. But that's a discussion for another thread.

^^^I actually had a much better understanding of the terrain and exposure of the party after Lou's field trip than I did from the CAIC report.

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Originally Posted by benfjord

I get that. I really do. But there's a fine line between 'learning' from others mistakes and disaster porn and once a CAIC report comes out because there's not much else you're going to 'learn' by visiting the site and doing amateur investigations. I highly doubt Lou's maliciously trying to gain page views by doing his site inspection, but it's silly to think there was actually a dire need for him to go skin around the accident site and act like Sherlock Holmes.

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I was pretty deep into the wildfire game for a long time, and I found that when firefighters were killed (or almost killed) it really helped me to understand what happened if I went out and walked the ground, as opposed to just reading the report. I'd do it on my own time so that I could understand. That may be what Lou did, and he's a writer with an audience so he wrote about it. <-that's a generous view, and wildsnow.com hate is so hot right now, but different POVs (Lou & CAIC) can lead to better understanding. And we want better understanding, right?

Or maybe it's just disaster porn.

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Originally Posted by AaronWright

^^^I actually had a much better understanding of the terrain and exposure of the party after Lou's field trip than I did from the CAIC report.

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Same here, only been over Loveland Pass once, about 30 years ago.

There are things in the Dawson Blog that CAIC cannot put into their reports and probably for good reason.

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Originally Posted by AaronWright

^^^I actually had a much better understanding of the terrain and exposure of the party after Lou's field trip than I did from the CAIC report.

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same here, too. w/o familiarity with the area and with understanding that there are R3-R5 avalanches being observed and recorded over the past several days, i don't see how his safe route to the low angle playground could have been determined as safe on that day....

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Originally Posted by AaronWright

^^^I actually had a much better understanding of the terrain and exposure of the party after Lou's field trip than I did from the CAIC report.

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Likewise
You can quibble with Lou's tone if you wish and I'm sure it cuts a bit raw for families and friends of the deceased but I for one appreciate the images and annotations and believe it can only help me when I am out touring, perhaps avoid some group heuristics and evaluate terrain better.

As a side note re discussion of level 1 curriculum, my course some 8 years ago focused more on snow science, pits, column/shovel shear test, rutchsblock (??) test etc none of which i use regularly nor can now remember how to perform correctly or interpret properly. Maybe it's time for a refresher course because I think the more contemporary ideas of hazard identification and mitigation are more useful.