Fear and Loathing, a Rat Flu Odyssey

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Originally Posted by bennymac

You are saying some things that are technically correct.

But you are also implying that this is all that “has to be said.” That is where you are wrong.

And then you double down by talking about will power.

I’m not sure how old you are - but you are parroting things that have been said since the 50s. and look around….it’s done nothing and things keep getting worse.

The definition of insanity is to keep doing (saying) the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

I dont blame you though - these faulty lessons and erroneous recommendations have been ingrained into us as mantras - to the point we treat them as “common sense”. It’s just too bad this common sense is wrong.

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Just a kid really, and it works for me so i keep saying it

the technical part is the easy part, the implementation part is the not so easy part

cuz the weight loss bidness is never ending and worth billions in America,

as always common sense is not common

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

Just a kid really, and it works for me so i keep saying it

the technical part is the easy part, the implementation part is the not so easy part

cuz the weight loss bidness is never ending and worth billions in America,

as always common sense is not common

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JFC. You’re not listening - you’re just waiting for your chance to repeat what you already got wrong. The technical part is not easy. Decades of failures have shown that. “Common sense” about diet and obesity, even if it were common, is wrong.

But we can take this to a thread about obesity if you want to discuss further.

go ahead and start an obesity thread if you like, on a forum populated by skiers/ runners/ bikers I doubt there are many in that group

Remember Ted Cruz's presidential platform?

'If Heidi Cruz becomes the next first lady, French fries are coming back to the cafeteria!"

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Originally Posted by bennymac

JFC. You’re not listening - you’re just waiting for your chance to repeat what you already got wrong. The technical part is not easy. Decades of failures have shown that. “Common sense” about diet and obesity, even if it were common, is wrong.

But we can take this to a thread about obesity if you want to discuss further.

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I'm going to disagree here. The technical part is easy--eat whole foods prepared at home. Making the switch from the SAD and getting to the point where healthy eating is a habit and just the default mode in which you live your life, that part is really, really hard.

The Nutrition Science thread is right over there, folks: https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...Science-thread

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

I'm going to disagree here. The technical part is easy--eat whole foods prepared at home. Making the switch from the SAD and getting to the point where healthy eating is a habit and just the default mode in which you live your life, that part is really, really hard.

The Nutrition Science thread is right over there, folks: https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...Science-thread

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If he’d said “not useful” instead of “wrong” would that have been better?

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

go ahead and start an obesity thread if you like, on a forum populated by skiers/ runners/ bikers I doubt there are many in that group

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It already exists. Take a lap.

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

go ahead and start an obesity thread if you like, on a forum populated by skiers/ runners/ bikers I doubt there are many in that group

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Maybe start a memory loss thread instead.

https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...hlight=obesity

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

I'm going to disagree here. The technical part is easy--eat whole foods prepared at home. Making the switch from the SAD and getting to the point where healthy eating is a habit and just the default mode in which you live your life, that part is really, really hard.

The Nutrition Science thread is right over there, folks: https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...Science-thread

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eat whole foods is a huge oversimplification with regards to food choice

while simultaneously ignoring many other important factors including food access

We as a society want this to be simple. So many other things in our lives are complicated (eg covid) and we work to continually figure those things out yet we continue to treat diet (no XXX I don’t mean dieting) as just something we can figure out based on instinct and the “common sense” we’ve been taught.

The answers are not gonna be summarized in these one sentence idioms we keep repeating.

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Originally Posted by bennymac

eat whole foods is a huge oversimplification with regards to food choice

while simultaneously ignoring many other important factors including food access

We as a society want this to be simple. So many other things in our lives are complicated (eg covid) and we work to continually figure those things out yet we continue to treat diet (no XXX I don’t mean dieting) as just something we can figure out based on instinct and the “common sense” we’ve been taught.

The answers are not gonna be summarized in these one sentence idioms we keep repeating.

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Eating healthy is fairly easy, objectively good, and nearly everyone can do it or at least eat much healthier than they currently do. Similarly, treating people with respect is fairly easy, objectively good, and nearly everyone can do it. In both instances, faaaar too many people fail to do so, in many cases for similar reasons... its easier and in the short term makes them feel better.

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Originally Posted by bennymac

eat whole foods is a huge oversimplification with regards to food choice

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Descriptive concepts are easier for people to implement than narrow prescriptive specifics. I'll also bet lots of money that you could repeat this study multiple times with different sets of foods that fit into the same two broad categories and get the same results: https://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism...19)30248-7.pdf

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Originally Posted by bennymac

while simultaneously ignoring many other important factors including food access

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I was actually going to edit that to include "...if it's available and you can afford it."

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

Eating healthy is fairly easy, objectively good, and nearly everyone can do it or at least eat much healthier than they currently do. Similarly, treating people with respect is fairly easy, objectively good, and nearly everyone can do it. In both instances, faaaar too many people fail to do so, in many cases for similar reasons... its easier and in the short term makes them feel better.

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Eating healthy is easy = only if you have been taught what eating healthy really is - is it low fat? Lots of fruit? What if all I have are bananas. Lots of veggies? What if all my veggies are potatoes. Does it matter how I cook them? What time of day? What about fiber content. How large should the servings be?Is red meat bad for me? Tuna? What about alcohol?

Eating healthy is objectively good - agree 100% if someone truly is “eating healthy” ^

Agree 100% that everyone can do better - disagree that people can do it easily without changes to education, recommendations, and food access

Agree 100% that respecting where people are coming from on this issue - and not neglecting that decades of misguided or even nefarious recommendations are playing a role - coupled with the fact that poor people have both the reduced access to food education and reduced access to food options.

Framing it as a willpower issue is insulting when talking about someone living in poverty trying to feed their family and not having the know how to do that properly and not having the resources to do it *even if* they knew how.

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

I was actually going to edit that to include "...if it's available and you can afford it."

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Under 3% of the population lives in a food desert. they are forgiven for bad diets. Add in that another 13% live in poverty and assume no overlap. So, 16% of the population is forgiven. The remaining 86% dont have a great excuse. We all know what the food pyramid looks like, i really do not buy that people don't know what eating healthy is. Put a gun to their head at every meal primed to fire if its unhealthy and watch their diet change immediately.

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Originally Posted by frorider

Was lucky to grow up in a house that emphasized zero processed foods; money was tight (parents had started a small business) so along the way I learned about how cheaply you can feed yourself if you emphasize certain vegetables/grains/proteins. But IMO there’s no getting around the fact that it takes time to prep and cook, and I completely understand the struggle many families have today as they juggle jobs, commutes, expensive day care.

I guess what I’m saying is I see shitloads of families who appear to rely on fast food, which bums me out, but I try to empathize with their situation.

There’s also the food-as-drug angle. I still remember a vivid article about a single mom with 4 kids, barely scraping by. Once or twice a week they’d go out and gorge themselves on fast food. It was the emotional high point of the week—to actually feel totally full, with a salty fatty food high. Rest of the week was pretty desolate.

Food discussions historically are entwined with privilege, well before Whole Foods was born.

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Your assessment on people's reasoning is sound, and is totally correct, but at the end of the day, it's still about personal choice and habits. If it's a matter of money, we can all point to the gazillions of people in fancy houses with luxurious chef's kitchens that go totally unused, with those families hitting up fast food on the reg. If it's a matter of time for those same people with money, then popping into a pho or ramen joint is almost always quicker than the slow ass lines that McD's has become. Often times cheaper too when a combo meal's rapidly approaching $10 these days. Plenty of pho places in the poorer sides of town too from what I've seen.

Regarding the "food deserts" we hear about so often, that IS a problem for many around the country, but even in the poorest sides of my town at least, you can eat plenty healthy if you make an effort. But that does take a bit of knowledge if one even cares to know. For example, I actually go to "the hood" to purchase much of my produce. That's where the warehouses are that supply the grocery stores. Couple of them are open to the public and are DIRT cheap. It's badass. I have fresh fruit and veggies coming out of my ears for no more than $20-30/week, and yes, they accept food stamps. And down the street from them are the roadside stands. "Sandia fresca! $1! Melónes - $0.50!" Great stuff. In fact, I have to go make another run this afternoon. Mangos just came in. 4 CASES for $10. This is in an area that our local news did a piece on calling it a "food desert." I know that can be true in many places, but in this case I was like "Uhh, wut?"

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

Descriptive concepts are easier for people to implement than narrow prescriptive specifics. I'll also bet lots of money that you could repeat this study multiple times with different sets of foods that fit into the same two broad categories and get the same results: https://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism...19)30248-7.pdf



I was actually going to edit that to include "...if it's available and you can afford it."

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That is an interesting study that they matched for everything else except for the processing. Thanks for sharing.

Agree that, as a simple easily digested :) concept the “eat less processed foods” would be a good starting point.

Alas a lot of people who need to learn this don’t understand what we mean by processed food. Not saying that to discount the idea - only to highlight that even this straightforward starting point requires more education (complexity) than just a one sentence recommendation.

so i was on a hut trip with 3 MD's one being the dean of medicine, they all did way more internal medicine than they did ski pow but I digress, I asked one of them if there is any medical reason why people become and remain fat ?

he said no

but I am sure the answer is >

so as you can see ... I did my reasearch

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Originally Posted by bennymac

Eating healthy is easy = only if you have been taught what eating healthy really is - is it low fat? Lots of fruit? What if all I have are bananas. Lots of veggies? What if all my veggies are potatoes. Does it matter how I cook them? What time of day? What about fiber content. How large should the servings be?Is red meat bad for me? Tuna? What about alcohol?

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Read that Cell study I linked to. On an unprocessed diet ad libitum feeding normalizes hormonal response to food and spontaneously leads to reduced calorie intake and weight loss.

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Originally Posted by bennymac

disagree that people can do it easily without changes to education, recommendations, and food access

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I don't think anyone has argued otherwise.

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Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

Your assessment on people's reasoning is sound, and is totally correct, but at the end of the day, it's still about personal choice and habits. If it's a matter of money, we can all point to the gazillions of people in fancy houses with luxurious chef's kitchens that go totally unused, with those families hitting up fast food on the reg. If it's a matter of time for those same people with money, then popping into a pho or ramen joint is almost always quicker than the slow ass lines that McD's has become. Often times cheaper too when a combo meal's rapidly approaching $10 these days. Plenty of pho places in the poorer sides of town too from what I've seen.

Regarding the "food deserts" we hear about so often, that IS a problem for many around the country, but even in the poorest sides of my town at least, you can eat plenty healthy if you make an effort. But that does take a bit of knowledge if one even cares to know. For example, I actually go to "the hood" to purchase much of my produce. That's where the warehouses are that supply the grocery stores. Couple of them are open to the public and are DIRT cheap. It's badass. I have fresh fruit and veggies coming out of my ears for no more than $20-30/week, and yes, they accept food stamps. And down the street from them are the roadside stands. "Sandia fresca! $1! Melónes - $0.50!" Great stuff. In fact, I have to go make another run this afternoon. Mangos just came in. 4 CASES for $10. This is in an area that our local news did a piece on calling it a "food desert." I know that can be true in many places, but in this case I was like "Uhh, wut?"

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“ you can eat plenty healthy if you make an effort. But that does take a bit of knowledge”

Fact: we can do a better job of not listening to corn lobbyists and instead educating people about what eating healthy really is (most of us in here get it)

Fact: some people are still gonna eat shitty diets because of many reasons - even if they can afford not to and know why they shouldn’t

We can throw our hands up and say “well we couldn’t convince 100% of the population to do better” or we can try to educate as many as we can

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

so i was on a hut trip with 3 MD's one being the dean of medicine, they all did way more internal medicine than they did ski pow but I digress, I asked one of them if there is any medical reason why people become and remain fat ?

he said no

but I am sure the answer is >

so as you can see ... I did my reasearch

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N=1 from an old doctor. Solid.

I guarantee he and his classmates got zero education in his medical school training about diet. Zero.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

So, 16% of the population is forgiven. The remaining 86% dont have a great excuse.

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Math is hard ;)

If you do the math a lot of processed food is actually not that cheap on a kcals/$ basis. But, again, math is hard.

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

I don't think anyone has argued otherwise.

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Posters saying “calories in calories out - just move more - otherwise it’s a failure of willpower etc” are not saying it….but they are saying it.

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Originally Posted by bennymac

“ you can eat plenty healthy if you make an effort. But that does take a bit of knowledge”

Fact: we can do a better job of not listening to corn lobbyists and instead educating people about what eating healthy really is (most of us in here get it)

Fact: some people are still gonna eat shitty diets because of many reasons - even if they can afford not to and know why they shouldn’t

We can throw our hands up and say “well we couldn’t convince 100% of the population to do better” or we can try to educate as many as we can

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Believe it or not, I agree with you 100%. Educational efforts could go a long way toward this effort, but I fear our govt is too cucked by corn lobby and such. Past efforts like the food pyramid ended up being pretty faulty.

One thing that is a big hurdle is simply our culture. Go to a convenience store in America and try and find a healthy meal. Now go to a 7-11 in Japan and you'll find plenty of good options. Here we have Big Gulps and gas station corn dogs. There they have sushi and miso to go. No way that'd fly here with the masses. Haha. Yeah, we have a serious problem in this department.

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Originally Posted by bennymac

N=1 from an old doctor. Solid.

I guarantee he and his classmates got zero education in his medical school training about diet. Zero.

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and all 3 were brits ... what do they know about food ?

or skiing

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

Math is hard ;)

If you do the math a lot of processed food is actually not that cheap on a kcals/$ basis. But, again, math is hard.

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Scary part is, im an engineer. True story, i forgot my calculator at home today and it sucks.


Funny enough im constantly evaluating the Kcal/$ equation as i struggle to keep weight on (currently about 15lbs heavier than my default) and eating calorically dense enough foods that dont break the bank is important... lots of rice gets eaten.

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Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

Believe it or not, I agree with you 100%. Educational efforts could go a long way toward this effort, but I fear our govt is too cucked by corn lobby and such. Past efforts like the food pyramid ended up being pretty faulty.

One thing that is a big hurdle is simply our culture. Go to a convenience store in America and try and find a healthy meal. Now go to a 7-11 in Japan and you'll find plenty of good options. Here we have Big Gulps and gas station corn dogs. There they have sushi and miso to go. No way that'd fly here with the masses. Haha. Yeah, we have a serious problem in this department.

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I made the observation in Japan one could actualy live out of a 7-11 cuz they have sushi miso , beer and most important an international bank machine