If only there was something we could do...

While all this is sort of interesting it does not address the relevant facts that are dribbling out.

This kid was fucked up and bullied and people saw that and chose to do nothing. He had plenty of warning signs evident and people chose to ignore them. He was able to walk in and buy 2 long rifles, handguns and a boatload of ammo and possibly some tactical armor and the shop sold them to him legally.

Its not just the tools that are the problem.

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Originally Posted by anotherVTskibum

Magazine size limits seem to make sense from a lot of perspectives, but IMO that cat is out of the bag. Magazines are relatively simple to manufacture, and I'm fairly sure you can 3D print them (or at least most of one) at this point. Trying to restrict access to standard military-style and larger magazines (I'm not willing to call a 30-round magazine "large capacity" when that's the standard for the class of firearm) would, again IMO, only affect the most by the book owners and provide the possibility of additional charges when one of the more radical types got arrested for something else.

Case in point: Vermont banned the sale or import to the state of rifle magazines over 10 rounds, and to date, the only widely reported case where they enforced the law was against a white supremacist who was also facing other charges for threatening, and they were able to get witnesses to discuss his trip out of state to buy the magazines.

I can't speak to the veracity of the suggestion, but I've also seen it said that in the event reloading becomes too hard, it's also possible to carry a bunch of revolvers and just keep switching guns. That sounds plausible to me.

Sent from my SM-G892A using TGR Forums mobile app

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The sheriffs departments are the ones who sued to have the unenforceable mag ban overturned in Co. They failed, now you've got this weird ass situation where stores openly sell technically illegal mags and everyone looks the other way because they never wanted to enforce it in the first place and it was just soem sort of experiment by the national Dem party.

Should have just kept them legal the current situation is not an improvement.

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Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

Semi and obviously full auto everything is probably not "necessary" for any non LEO individual who isn't prepping for a civil war. They're fun and certainly essential for law enforcement though. The notion of personal sidearms, even not semi auto is another can of worms. Probably only "necessary" for folks who have a dangerous job like bounty hunter or repo .. and folks who lave a legit violent stalker restraining order .

But as for everyone else.. Plenty of folks are just legit scared of strangers (potential criminals, assailants) and afraid to go out in the real world without a gun.. Some are on a power trip, embolden to no longer be nice to strangers and speak their minds so to speak.. i.e. bullies.. How do we tell them apart?

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Or lots of people are just trusting enough of their fellow citizens they are fine with them owning guns. Personally I think we should give every immigrant an ar15 and a green card, I'm fine with trusting my neighbors and feel no narcissistic desire to assert control over strangers, and see no reason to think that is what will solve our problems. It will only make them more complicated and harder to enforce and worse.

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Originally Posted by Bobby Stainless

If you read what I am saying, the current laws don't make any sense. If I wanted a toy quickly, I would've bought the pistol version. I don't care about the wait. I think the wait is a good thing, even if its 30% of what it used to be.

Hence the reason I think all "assault weapons" (which needs more definition) should be Class 3. I don't like to tell people what they need or don't need. It's not really my business. However, if you want access to dangerous shit you need to go through some hoops. They aren't even hoops really. It's just the ATF making sure you aren't a felon or on a list.

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I like that you’re addressing the issue that any dipshit can buy a high powered weapon WAY too easily and quickly. How do you and other gun hobbyists/recreational users feel about my and others ideas on real registries and insurance requirements for all firearms? If the responsible gun owners aren’t the problem, then they surely wouldn’t have an issue with sensible measures to facilitate further responsibility right?

People "trusting enough of their neighbors" have zero need to carry.

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Originally Posted by mcphee

I like that you’re addressing the issue that any dipshit can buy a high powered weapon WAY too easily and quickly. How do you and other gun hobbyists/recreational users feel about my and others ideas on real registries and insurance requirements for all firearms? If the responsible gun owners aren’t the problem, then they surely wouldn’t have an issue with sensible measures to facilitate further responsibility right?

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I have a 4th grader and she gets to go to 5th grade. I don't think there is anything worse than what happened to those kids. It's gut wrenching seeing the pictures.

Im pretty sure the ATF keeps a real registry. Im not very confident that anything will happen, but small moves will be more successful than nothing at all.

If we can all agree that the gun law route is pretty fucked, then I would imagine other options should be looked at due too better viability. Locking doors and prison are not synonymous. Real SROs and not fatty riding the desk till retirement. Perhaps a program that pays retired veterans with combat experience to provide security. I can't get into my kids school. I think locked doors are very reasonable. I lock my house.

Bullying is an issue. I've had personal experience with it and it's pretty gnarly. No parental support or professional help, kids can go two ways. This was one of them. Bullying needs more focus.

Retired veterans with combat experience to patrol schools? This is fucking idiotic. What makes you think they’d be good patrolling a school?

Just performative bullshit from assholes who need their little toy. These are not serious ideas, this is pablum to waste time so nothing gets done so they can buy a few more guns before the next slaughter

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Originally Posted by dunfree

Huh, wonder what differentiates the us from the rest of the world playing the same video game?

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I think I said it.

They can play Call of Duty, then they can walk down the street and buy the same $1500 Daniel defense and a Glock 19.

It’s great marketing.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

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Originally Posted by dunfree

Retired veterans with combat experience to patrol schools? This is fucking idiotic.

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Why man? Too much authority bringing down your vibe bro?

Do you have kids?

I'd have zero issue with it and I actually have children in elementary and middle school. I think you mentioned the Parkland cop running away.

If bullying & mental health are the issue, then armed anybody (police, school rent a cop, veteran, school teacher) isn’t the answer

And ultimately, the problem isn’t the schools

Nor is the level of security the problem

We should be aspiring to a level of security that precludes weapons & defensive perimeters (locked, fenced, video-monitored or beyond) — that is our freedom (not some misguided notion to own weapons)

Part of that is reducing access to firearms through regulating them
Part of that is social support structures including health programs including mental health

Question for the gun experts here: supposedly he purchased two AR platform rifles and 375 rounds of ammo. Approximately how much would that cost?

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Originally Posted by Bobby Stainless

Why man? Too much authority bringing down your vibe bro?

Do you have kids?

I'd have zero issue with it and I actually have children in elementary and middle school. I think you mentioned the Parkland cop running away.

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Combat vets aren't necessarily trained to be with kids and may do more damage with their other behavior during non shooting times.
Look, in this case cops were on the scene immediately and could not prevent the shooter from entering and basically sacrificed those kids by waiting 40 minutes for someone else to deal with it.
More cops is not the answer as it is already proven in this scenario (among others) to not work, because cops are humans that don't want to die. That leaves not having weapons available and other options.

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Originally Posted by Bobby Stainless

I have a 4th grader and she gets to go to 5th grade. I don't think there is anything worse than what happened to those kids. It's gut wrenching seeing the pictures.

Im pretty sure the ATF keeps a real registry. Im not very confident that anything will happen, but small moves will be more successful than nothing at all.

If we can all agree that the gun law route is pretty fucked, then I would imagine other options should be looked at due too better viability. Locking doors and prison are not synonymous. Real SROs and not fatty riding the desk till retirement. Perhaps a program that pays retired veterans with combat experience to provide security. I can't get into my kids school. I think locked doors are very reasonable. I lock my house.

Bullying is an issue. I've had personal experience with it and it's pretty gnarly. No parental support or professional help, kids can go two ways. This was one of them. Bullying needs more focus.

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My daughter is 9 months old. My oldest nephew is 14. Ive had real concerns about our gun laws and ability to access firearms since before Columbine. It makes me sick to my stomach having to worry about sending kids to school. Locked from the outside doors should be required at every school and not just for school shooting concerns.

ATF keeps no registry and I don’t agree the gun law route is fucked. What’s fucked are the people who will sacrifice nothing and never admit that we have a real problem with almost unfettered access to firearms in this country. We have a societal problem here and tight restrictions and regulations need to be made and enforced on a uniform, federal level.

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Originally Posted by The AD

Question for the gun experts here: supposedly he purchased two AR platform rifles and 375 rounds of ammo. Approximately how much would that cost?

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Lowest end for that is going to be about 2k with no optics, more likely about 3k.

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Originally Posted by schuss

Combat vets aren't necessarily trained to be with kids and may do more damage with their other behavior during non shooting times.
Look, in this case cops were on the scene immediately and could not prevent the shooter from entering and basically sacrificed those kids by waiting 40 minutes for someone else to deal with it.
More cops is not the answer as it is already proven in this scenario (among others) to not work, because cops are humans that don't want to die. That leaves not having weapons available and other options.

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Yea cops rarely are willing to risk their lives any more. They used to be but their us and them I don't owe you shit psychology has become a lot more prevalent.

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Originally Posted by mcphee

My daughter is 9 months old. My oldest nephew is 14. Ive had real concerns about our gun laws and ability to access firearms since before Columbine. It makes me sick to my stomach having to worry about sending kids to school. Locked from the outside doors should be required at every school and not just for school shooting concerns.

ATF keeps no registry and I don’t agree the gun law route is fucked. What’s fucked are the people who will sacrifice nothing and never admit that we have a real problem with almost unfettered access to firearms in this country. We have a societal problem here and tight restrictions and regulations need to be made and enforced on a uniform, federal level.

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ATF by law is not allowed to keep computerized records and registries. The laws are very fixable, you just have the entirety of the republican party (and some dems) against that out of pure rhetoric reasons. If you put walls around any attempt to understand or fix a problem, no shit it doesn't get fixed.

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Originally Posted by leroy jenkins

Lowest end for that is going to be about 2k with no optics, more likely about 3k.

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Thanks. Apparently the nutjob worked at Wendy's. He'd probably been saving all his money toward this end for a long time.

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Originally Posted by schuss

ATF by law is not allowed to keep computerized records and registries. The laws are very fixable, you just have the entirety of the republican party (and some dems) against that out of pure rhetoric reasons. If you put walls around any attempt to understand or fix a problem, no shit it doesn't get fixed.

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We're in the stone ages as far as any kind of trace or registry, this is by design per the influence of the NRA:

https://youtu.be/rMQ2b6ZwwCU

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by The AD

Thanks. Apparently the nutjob worked at Wendy's. He'd probably been saving all his money toward this end for a long time.

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He had two AR's, one of which was a Daniel Defense with an Eotech on it. The cheapest Daniel Defense is $1870, the Eotech goes for about $600. Not sure what the other brand was but figure at least a grand. The kid had 4-5 grand in guns and ammo, so yeah, that'd take a while.

I am a huge mental health advocate. It is under funded in our society. Improving this priority would reduce gun deaths significantly, but mostly in terms of suicidality. Mental health is horrifically misunderstood in terms of gun crime.

I don't think that mental health is the issue in this specific circumstance, but we don't know and may never know in this specific incident.

Medicalizing criminality is a horrific mistake.

There exists diagnostic boxes into which we can put the fractional (but socially significant) percentage of humanity that will be inevitably and incorrigibly violent, but it isn't because they are ill in the same way that someone with PTSD or depression or ADD or OCD are ill (and each of these is very different).

Stigma is a problem, because though certain affective (eg schizophrenia) and mood (eg bipolar) disorders seem to make up roughly 10% of murderers when looking at older datasets (a disproportionate amount vs the general population), actually very few people who have those disorders commit murder. This particular phenomenon of statistics is hard to parse for the public/policy makers and hard to address for clinicians. To say this differently, someone who is schizophrenic might have 20x the chance of being a murderer vs average, thus explaining overrepresentation among murderers, but the chance that someone with schizophrenia commits murder in their life is <0.1%!!!

When you are talking about diagnosis that actually do present a significant risk of murder, these people don't need to pop a pill. Substance abuse disorders correlate with crime, but that is a highly complex topic and is often comorbid with other issues. Other people have certain types of personality disorders such as antisocial or borderline often only recognized only after the fact, and the mechanisms vary too. The few who are violently psychotic or impassionately enraged tend to target those personally close to them (eg DV) and act on different impulses than someone who is amoral like an Antisocial. Antisocials are basically untreatable, amoral, and though there is a distinction between that personality disorder and psychopathy, the overlap is nearly complete. These people almost always end up in the criminal justice system and usually prison, but sometimes they kill (many) before landing there. Flagging them earlier is the only intervention I can think of, and fraught. Failure to intervene despite spotting the problem is another issue (eg the Aurora theater shooter).

"Support Mental Health" and "Mental Health Awareness" tropes, whether noble or as an excuse, probably have little overlap on functional interventions here.

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Originally Posted by BobMc

He had two AR's, one of which was a Daniel Defense with an Eotech on it. The cheapest Daniel Defense is $1870, the Eotech goes for about $600. Not sure what the other brand was but figure at least a grand. The kid had 4-5 grand in guns and ammo, so yeah, that'd take a while.

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He had this planned for a long time. What a shame that no one saw the signs--or at least didn't act on their suspicions about this kid.

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Originally Posted by dunfree

Retired veterans with combat experience to patrol schools? This is fucking idiotic. What makes you think they’d be good patrolling a school?

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Just to fill you in... A bunch of cops are retired military.

I would say the biggest qualifying factor is combat experience. We are dealing with combat weaponry correct. Wouldn't you want someone with experience rather than some 65 year old blob?

Furthermore, the shooter was killed by an advanced Border Patrol agent part of a "BORDERTAC" team. Chances are hes retired military too.

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Originally Posted by schuss

Combat vets aren't necessarily trained to be with kids and may do more damage with their other behavior during non shooting times.
Look, in this case cops were on the scene immediately and could not prevent the shooter from entering and basically sacrificed those kids by waiting 40 minutes for someone else to deal with it.
More cops is not the answer as it is already proven in this scenario (among others) to not work, because cops are humans that don't want to die. That leaves not having weapons available and other options.

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at a more practical level the definition of “combat veteran” doesn’t necessarily reflect the skills Bobby thinks he wants
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...iqm_story.html

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As for my most recent tour, I don’t tell people I deployed to Baghdad. I say that I deployed to Victory Base Complex (VBC) — the largest, most luxurious base wartime soldiers have ever had the pleasure of visiting. I never set foot in Baghdad proper. The only gunshots I heard were from our shooting range. I never fired a weapon or rode in a convoy or on a helicopter.

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Originally Posted by Bobby Stainless

Just to fill you in... A bunch of cops are retired military.

I would say the biggest qualifying factor is combat experience. We are dealing with combat weaponry correct. Wouldn't you want someone with experience rather than some 65 year old blob?

Furthermore, the shooter was killed by an advanced Border Patrol agent part of a "BORDERTAC" team. Chances are hes retired military too.

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For a combat role yes
For a school no

We as a society shouldn’t be aspiring to weaponizing society, that just takes us further down a road none of us want to be on

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Originally Posted by dunfree

Retired veterans with combat experience to patrol schools? This is fucking idiotic. What makes you think they’d be good patrolling a school?

Just performative bullshit from assholes who need their little toy. These are not serious ideas, this is pablum to waste time so nothing gets done so they can buy a few more guns before the next slaughter

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This, and all the other bullshit distraction attempts about mental health being a priority, blah blah. Bottom line, as always, is a complete shift in gun regulation (ultra-strict like other countries have--countries that never, ever have these problems) will fix all of this. The rest is just bullshit the gun people have used to distract from what needs to be done--getting rid of most of these guns. Get rid of the guns and you get rid of the problem. It really is that simple, as other countries have shown us. There's nothing so special about us that would make us the exception. Who gives a fuck what 18th century slave owners wrote down (putting aside the misreading of the amendment, which is very clear that the 'right' only applies for the purposes of maintaining a military).

Sickening what people are willing to accept and advocate for.

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Originally Posted by schuss

Combat vets aren't necessarily trained to be with kids and may do more damage with their other behavior during non shooting times.
Look, in this case cops were on the scene immediately and could not prevent the shooter from entering and basically sacrificed those kids by waiting 40 minutes for someone else to deal with it.
More cops is not the answer as it is already proven in this scenario (among others) to not work, because cops are humans that don't want to die. That leaves not having weapons available and other options.

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I agree with you but also want to emphasize how crazy it is that people are seriously considering putting an additional 1-5 vets/cops at the 100k public schools in the country.

I agree, it's just that 5 guards * 50000 avg salary * 100000 public schools and we would still have all the gun problems we have now but spend a lot more and traumatize more kids and teachers by turning schools into prisons. What is not to love about protecting the right for people to have dangerous toys?

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Originally Posted by ::: :::

For a combat role yes
We as a society shouldn’t be aspiring to weaponizing society, that just takes us further down a road none of us want to be on

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There are these true believers that think we're safer with more guns though. And the vets make shitty cops anyway.

Also - to be clear, I'd be fine with some of the discussions of mental health if it was coupled to meaningful funding and support. It isn't. It's just blame. Those pointing to disturbed individuals are doing absolutely nothing to understand or alleviate that problem. Until they do, call them out on their bullshit.
Oh sorry, "thoughts and prayers"

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Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

Bottom line, as always, is a complete shift in gun regulation (ultra-strict like other countries have--countries that never, ever have these problems) will fix all of this. The rest is just bullshit the gun people have used to distract from what needs to be done--getting rid of most of these guns. Get rid of the guns and you get rid of the problem. It really is that simple, as other countries have shown us. There's nothing so special about us that would make us the exception. Who gives a fuck what 18th century slave owners wrote down (putting aside the misreading of the amendment, which is very clear that the 'right' only applies for the purposes of maintaining a military).

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Good luck with that.

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Originally Posted by ex-powderbroker

And the vets make shitty cops anyway.

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Why?

Are we all cop and vet haters here too? Defund the police and all?

Grow up kids.

Bunch of states let local and state law enforcement agencies resell confiscated firearms. That needs to stop yesterday.

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Originally Posted by ::: :::

We as a society shouldn’t be aspiring to weaponizing society, that just takes us further down a road none of us want to be on

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Agree 100%. I don't see any possible way that more guns and more armed people is the answer.

Im not sure many of you can grasp the amount of firearms that are in circulation. The cat is out of the bag.

Australia is the size of NYC. Comparing the two is fool's errand. New Zealand is even smaller.

Hundreds of thousands produced daily. I would look for alternative routes than the ol "Get rid of guns" schtick. It might do wonders for you ego, but it does little else.

99% of my personal experience post SCOTUS Heller tells me that the myth that "an armed society is a polite society" is totally busted. Ya sure, some people definitely do walk away from a confrontation and don't escalate for fear of having to use the gun they are packing.. But, far more are more likely to get on your face and escalate, especially road rage when they know pulling a gun is an option when things start to go south over trivial bullshit..

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Originally Posted by Bobby Stainless

Why?

Are we all cop and vet haters here too?

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No, but OTOH some of us are not retarded.

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Originally Posted by Bobby Stainless

Im not sure many of you can grasp the amount of firearms that are in circulation. The cat is out of the bag.

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It's not just about the sheer number, though. It's about the types of guns allowed by private citizens, the capacity of magazines allowed, and where and how those guns can be utilized.

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Originally Posted by Bobby Stainless

Im not sure many of you can grasp the amount of firearms that are in circulation. The cat is out of the bag.

Australia is the size of NYC. Comparing the two is fool's errand. New Zealand is even smaller.

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Yup, it could never work because...it could never work. Because someone said so. Despite all the evidence to the contrary, including in this country (in NYC, for example--look what strict gun laws and enforcement and interdiction of guns from the stupid states accomplished here). Grow up, amirite Stainless?

Someone needs to tell these people they are fucking stupid.

https://news.yahoo.com/manatee-schoo...194554275.html

https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/Pl...a8c7063e93bfb9

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Verdecia isn’t there to get to know the kids, break up fights or do the typical community-policing that school resource officers typically do, said MSA Principal Bill Jones.Verdecia has one job: Stop an active shooter.
Jones said if a shooter arrived at the campus, they would most likely be carrying a rifle, wearing body armor and looking to inflict as much carnage as quickly as possible. He said even though the Palmetto Police Department will respond, he needs someone on scene who can return force with force.

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Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

(in NYC, for example--look what strict gun laws and enforcement and interdiction of guns from the stupid states accomplished here)?

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Good point.

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A suspect in the fatal shooting of a Goldman Sachs employee in what police say was an unprovoked attack on a New York City subway train was in custody Tuesday.

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https://news.yahoo.com/suspect-fatal...175634192.html

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Originally Posted by Bobby Stainless

Im not sure many of you can grasp the amount of firearms that are in circulation. The cat is out of the bag.

Australia is the size of NYC. Comparing the two is fool's errand. New Zealand is even smaller.

Hundreds of thousands produced daily. I would look for alternative routes than the ol "Get rid of guns" schtick. It might do wonders for you ego, but it does little else.

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It’s called a “goal”

We need goals to keep us focused on what is important and why

So that we don’t get lost in the forest looking at trees

It’s not ego
Smart societies use strategic AND tactical thinking, not one or the other

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Originally Posted by Bobby Stainless

Im not sure many of you can grasp the amount of firearms that are in circulation. The cat is out of the bag.

Australia is the size of NYC. Comparing the two is fool's errand. New Zealand is even smaller.

Hundreds of thousands produced daily. I would look for alternative routes than the ol "Get rid of guns" schtick. It might do wonders for you ego, but it does little else.

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Bobby stupid is bad with numbers and unable to grasp that there’s a lot of people that don’t own any guns and don’t want to.