The only advice I can proffer: moar speed, pull up. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by garyfromterrace
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The only advice I can proffer: moar speed, pull up. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by garyfromterrace
Come in straight, air over the first lip, skip the second berm, ride the third one... which is how they should have built it. Tight back and forth berms are great when they help you get through some tight trees but that's just unnecessary. Berms for berm's sake = no bueno. Pretty picture tho...
How did we go from this;
"All these mountain bike trails are really hard on the environment. High long term impact because they weren't well thought out."
to this;
"Get me a track hoe and I'll plot this thing out like a toll road, keep it smooth with enough room to pass, make sure the grade is never greater than 11%, you'll be able to see it from a jetliner."
THANK YOU!!!🙌Quote:
Originally Posted by jm2e
Not all engineered trail is bad. Engineering all trails is bad. Engineering bad trails.....that's sad. It makes me mad. I'm glad my backyard flow trail is rad. As a dad, my son loves the berms and airs that it has. That said, his favorite trail is our local old school hand made single track with all its roots rocks and chundery slate quarry features.
(1) The line connecting the berms requires such speed-squeezing that the berms are purely cosmetic. Like they were made just for a fall leafy day corridor picture, not for actual riding.Quote:
Originally Posted by TahoeJ
(2) That line you suggest as alternative looks good -- but without the tiny scalloped lip of the vestigial berm to buck you.
Think of this: you have a whole mtn like BMA does, and you have X man-hours to use for trails. You can build that crap in the picture, pretending you're a concrete skatepark sculptor, spending useless hours on aesthetic bullshit. Or you can build a larger number of trails that consume vertical faster, but more options from top to bottom.
The berm man-hours expenditure on a trail that is pinched on itself repeatedly, always slow going is a joke. Glad I'm in the audience, and not the person responsible.
Yeah no shit. Enviro awareness reasons for "this trail is unsustainable" if not a Flow Trail, but look at what earth-moving and man-hours we can invest if it is a Flow Trail to Grow the Sport!Quote:
Originally Posted by jm2e
https://youtu.be/5yAPmlU9C5g
Those berms are near the end. I'd have to try pretty hard not to have fun riding that.
Hah, I hadn't seen that video. The picture from TR did the classic field shrinking, it's a super-long view! So my comments above about how pinched it is? Irrelevant, ignorant and uninformed. Like most things on the internet!
I'd be pretty psyched if that showed up in one of our local trail networks. Unfortunately when we get new "flow" trails it's some pretty poorly executed berms and some dirt mounds without landings.
I don't have a problem with machine built flow trails. Fast, bermy, rolly stuff is a good time. Sure, there's good flow trails and bad flow trails, and even the best flow trails are going to have some spots that don't work as well as they probably could.
But what I do have a problem with is the current mindset that every new trail is automatically going to be a machine built thing with an emphasis on flow. There's probably been 50 miles of (legal) new trail construction in my general vicinity over the last 10 years, and all but maybe 3 of those miles are super smooth, fairly wide machine built stuff. Some of it's pretty fun, but I'd kill for some modern, hand built, raw trail. Yes, hand built trail takes longer and costs way more to build, but it's better.
And the vast majority of people don't care if its better. So we're basically screwed. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by toast2266
Same thing around. It's great to have so many new trails, but they're all so similar to each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by toast2266
My Rant
On Saturday we stopped where the trail makes an awkward right angle turn, then descends a half dozen hand laid steps obviously built by/for hikers. If you aren’t good at the slow hiking trail style sharp turn you can nose into a tombstone boulder on the left, then take a header the rest of the way down. There’s an inside line; goes down rock 4” right of the first few steps, isn’t easy, but definitely not as awkward or as high a chance of getting hurt if you fuck it up. Causes no erosion because it’s on rock, and although it’s still a slow-ish line it certainly rides much more enjoyably (flow?).
Every couple weeks we have to stop and remove the rocks and wood that get piled up to block this inside line (French line?)
Later on the same ride, we encountered no fewer than 4 groups riding UPHILL on the DOWNHILLS. Moderately irritating, except for one group that didn’t make any effort to compromise at all. Last guy even bumped shoulders with me as I stood on the downhill side of the trail with no more room to move over.
/rant
On a *directional* DH trail? Tell those wankers to GTFO! :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by jm2e
Better is subjective. Around these parts, it seems like about 95% of people are insanely fired up for these bullshit trails that they are putting it. Apparently it's what the people want.Quote:
Originally Posted by skaredshtles
I don't know who or where it was that a natural hand-built trail took longer & cost more than a machine-built one. Maybe in clay/silica soils where there are no roots/rocks/ruts/terrain folds, and the agenda is a 4-foot-wide BMX track or pump track.Quote:
Originally Posted by toast2266
The mini-dozer/bobcat built trails could only cost less if machine cost+operation/upkeep cost is consumed completely by the builder, who would then have to be well-heeled. And still would not have to know anything about trail routing, use of natural terrain, and other things essential to what makes the trail fun to ride independent of bench width & horizon consistency.
Being able to walk terrain and scope out possible routes is one thing. Knowing what routes will build easiest/fastest and hold up longest is separate, and usually depends on knowing the soil and how it drains & degrades. Some clown from elsewhere probably won't know that stuff.
If a rider entered MTB riding in the past 5-10 years, he/she started when everyone was praising "flow trails" and "grow the sport."Quote:
Originally Posted by dfinn
If a rider started riding 15+ years ago, he might be a little confused as to how he got along without easier/"flowier" trails and stuck with it, nobody cheering him on for "progression" and no inkling of whether his riding or the trails he was on were "growing the sport."
New riders in the Pinkbike Supremacy Era think the pinnacle of trails is Flow. They want the trail to make them feel skilled, accomplished, heroic even.
^^^ Well Creeky, we had a good run, then.
This sums up my feelings perfectly. Having some variety is key. Hell, I think some of the most fun trails have a little of both on different sections. Take the Corral trail in South Lake Tahoe ... it has raw, rocky, technical sections on the first half and the lower half is manicured jumps and huge berms... it's really fun getting both on a single descent like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by toast2266
Not directional trails. Definitely way better going down. And kind if miserable to climb (I’m assuming)Quote:
Originally Posted by skaredshtles
That’s why are usually only consider it to be a little bit annoying. And I always slow down, move to the side, stop if warranted, AND be as friendly as possible. The guys who were being dicks, must’ve read somewhere that uppers have the right-of-way, and assumed that meant they own the fucking place.
It obviously depends on the type of terrain, soil, etc., but the local builders will usually charge $2-3 / foot for a basic machine built trail in not-too-difficult terrain, whereas they'd charge about twice that (or more) for a hand built trail in the same terrain. I've built some trail with an excavator, and in straightforward terrain, it's actually kinda ridiculous how quickly you can bang out trail.Quote:
Originally Posted by creaky fossil
Of course, if the goal is a decently rocky, rooty, skinny trail, it's somewhere between very difficult and impossible to build that with a machine.
Ugh. HUGE pet peeve of mine. Whenever I'm climbing a trail and people are coming down with a nice pace, I *always* move off to the side and let them keep going. It sucks to have your descent interrupted. I wish more riders would reciprocate - hikers are usually better about it, which is sad to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by jm2e
Someone post a video of one of these feel good machine build flow areas. I need to gauge my radness.
must’ve read somewhere that uppers have The right way
Don't know if you meant right-of-way or right way; for some folks going up the hard way is always the right way.
Basic, good old etiquette states that uphill has the 'priority' unless it is a direction specific trail, amiright?
Not really. Common sense would dictate the opposite actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by tellybele
Who makes more noise, a climber or a descender? Who can hear better, a climber moving slowly or a descender moving anywhere north of 6mph with some wind in their ears, and their bike certainly making more noise?
Who can stop more quickly, someone going uphill slowly or someone descending faster and on a downhill slope?
IMBA of course decided to put the opposite of common sense out there years ago so people think it's some kind of rule. On year of riding up and down dirt trails with other users should tell you how stupid that is.
I dunno, problem is if we change to ROW to downhill riders, downhill riders will be buzzing uphill riders pretty dang bad on trails where you can't get out of the way. People have different bubbles and some are gonna get popped. Just sitting for hours and constantly listening for potential incoming death sounds miserable, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by kidwoo
I dictated that on my commute. Mom always said something bad would happen if I trolled TGR while driving. Guess she was right!Quote:
Originally Posted by tellybele
In my book, this isn’t a fucking highway and we’re not governed by CHiPs. Our rules should come from etiquette and the acknowledgement that we’re all trying to share and have fun. You slow down when you pass others, you say hi/thanks and you say sorry if you came in hot and spooked someone.
Well I don't really consider any right of way other than "what makes sense here" and "what's actually effective." I sure as fuck don't remember nominating IMBA lord of the woods or anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by muted
Expecting, and especially demanding that some 180lb bike rider come to a screeching halt when someone who likely heard him coming for the last 30 seconds just holds their ground and insists is kind of stupid.
You can walk out into a crosswalk in front of a speeding semi all day long and be right. You're still gonna get run over though. I do agree, giving more entitlement to what's a growing population of really entitled endurpo-bros probably isn't the best. But I'm not advocating any sort of rule. I'm just pointing out the stupidity of the current suggestion.
Fucking bikers leaving their used CO2 cartridges on the trail, on the bike path and on the road.
Pack it in, pack it out!
Just because you’re right doesn’t mean you’re right, know what I’m saying? Like I said above, if some other rider is descending I’m more than happy to move over and not make them stop. And I always hope for the same I return. We grind up so we can ride down...Quote:
Originally Posted by tellybele
Over the last few months I've noticed that more and more people step out of the way for me when I'm descending whether it's other riders or hikers. I've also had hikers be quite a bit more considerate in all situations than they used to be. Unfortunately the same doesn't hold true for equestrians and trail runners. Both of those groups are still as rude as ever.
In Vermont the only reason builders mechanized was for profitability. Hand benched trail in these parts is considerably more expensive to build.
In addition it has been sold as more sustainable. Another bullshit buzz word land managers like. In truth, even the most impacted primitive trail, with no benching, represents day one of an excavated bench cut. The impact and soil disturbance of even the most well designed and executed excavator trail far exceeds that of even a poorly planned hand built trail.
Sustainability is a myth. By removing all the roots, builders remove nature's very affective soil stabilizers, and after every gully washer one can observe a lot of mineral dirt moving down trail and off trail.
These trails being the gateway to the flow state that we all seek to exist in while ripping is the final joke. The flow state is reached by over stimulating. When the cognitive functions are overwhelmed other parts of the brain are hijacked to crunch the data fast enough to stay in one piece. That is where the escape into the flow state happens. By dumbing down trails builders make it harder to achieve flow state.
Flow trails are about making mtb easy enough for posers to feel good about their latest purchase.
Yes. I've stopped going downhill as well as going uphill. Every situation is different on a bike. Hiking the uphill has the row, just because they always have for some reason, but I've stopped in both scenarios as well hiking...and I was a quasi guide back in the day.Quote:
Originally Posted by kidwoo
Yep, dropper posts at half-height, black wreath on my front wheel, singing dirges. I threw dirt on its coffin, it's time for the wake.Quote:
Originally Posted by plugboots
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...53ff0fe7a8.jpg
Cows say:
“Moooooooove yer flow BS to somewhere else!”
In my home town you used to see 2 or three people when you were out on your ride a decade ago. Many of the single tracks have been built out into the IMBA trails you speak of. One night while climbing Holly's a group was out building and I asked to be let through. One up tight dude says "you can at least say thank you for our work." I turned and said, " I wish you weren't here. Now on a trail I have to myself every evening I will have a ton of people, but thank you." It now is a four foot wide freeway seeing tons of traffic. It's easy to be considerate when you don't have to dismount every five minutes. Chair access, shuttle services and growth have changed the dynamic here. I always try to be nice, but sometimes I feel like I'm back in Boulder with the number of people out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by gravitylover
The solution in Park City is to make everything directional.Quote:
Originally Posted by Canada1
I don't have a problem with uphill ROW as a general guideline for obvious safety reasons. My real gripe is with douches like those in jm2e's story who insist on climbing de facto downhills when there's a nice climbing route nearby, or who descend obvious climbing routes. Not being an idiot solves many problems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canada1
This made my day. It's like doppelganger pink floyd.
Do you actually expect equestrians to yield to you while you're descending? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by gravitylover
I can't wait until someone figures out "taste prediction" software + cellphone connectivity + MTB boombox so that you could just blast down the hill and your music will change based upon whatever person you're about to encounter. Tuned accurately enough you could really affect the mindset of those who, otherwise, might see you as their Mechanical Grim Reaper. For some, music that makes them go all Zen. For others, party music. For others, something that scares them into running off-trail and hiding behind a tree or rock.
Imagine the Sport-GrowingTM opportunities.
We have a trail in town that is marked at each end with a sign saying "This is a Mountain Bike Descent Trail." The great majority of people I encounter on that trail are coming uphill, and most of them are on foot. One time a couple years back a walker glared at & made a snarky remark as I passed. I stopped, said "you saw the signs saying this is a MTB descent trail?", exchanged two futile sentences, and went about my way. You can't fix someone else's smug ignorance and insistence they're always in the right. The problem is when that view dominates among the trail users.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
I'm seriously considering getting a REALLY loud bluetooth speaker and blaring at all times on the way down:Quote:
Originally Posted by creaky fossil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGU1P6lBW6Q