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How many of you actually fall forward like this when you're skinning? Show of hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeLau
Seems like people are searching for a problem, and this is one that won't ever (or hardly ever) occur in real-life conditions. Unless you're really fucking clumsy.
ETA: I'd be happy to take someone's catastrophically designed Tectons off their hands for the low, boot-saving price of $100. SAVE YER BOOTS PEOPLE. (and sell me your Tectons)
I have a few times, while doing a kick turn on an icy skin track.Quote:
Originally Posted by meter-man
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Ever since the confirmation of how this boot-accident became clear, I feel pretty much the same way. Don't fall directly and forcefully forward with your heel free and your toe locked. Seems easy enough. Don't lock the toe while skiing and then crash into something head-on, and try to avoid a total faceplant while skinning. Can't recall ever doing one of those.Quote:
Originally Posted by meter-man
I have while bushwhacking through some scrubby shit looking for the best way around an obstacle, shit happensQuote:
Originally Posted by meter-man
people do fall like that, I remember the early F10's were cracking the toe pivot from forward falls while skinning
you would think they tested for that but no matter what they test for something always gets missed
Yup.Quote:
Originally Posted by ticketchecker
Exactly! Shit happens. I've seen plenty of falls that way.
Why look at the shift binding now when it releases a year from now?
Fair enough. I'll check my boots this evening and see if the toe box is high enough for this to be an issue on mine or not. Could be boot-specific, which might help explain how they missed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ticketchecker
I'd also be interested in hearing what DINs people are using. I know that the incidents all involve the lockout-mode, but the shop guys told me that on the Tecton, it isn't really a lockout. It just increases the force required to release on your DIN setting by about 50%. So if you have it maxed out, it might behave differently than if you have it set more modestly. I don't have a spare pair of boots to experiment with, but I'd be curious if it has any real effect.
Mounted mine last night, and compared them to Dyanfits Rad 2.0s. In terms of toe denting.... on the Dynafits, boot toe (both MTN and Vulcan) will hit the front of the binding as well, but at an angle where your knee would already be on the ground. So no real impact. But on the Tecton, the impact occurs at an angle where your knee will still be in the air above the ski. So I can see how this could/would happen. Can the plastic bumper thingy that is causing the indents just be ground down with a Dremel? What purpose does it even serve?
I believe the bumper is designed to release the toe in a forward fall when in ski mode, but it appears that in walk mode the release value is too great to release.
^^^^same Q as Reemer - what purpose does that thing serve.
I've probably fallen that way too (cuz I'm fucking clumsy), so, seriously guys, don't chance it with yer boots! Not worth it.
I'll give you the satisfaction of protecting your boots, and will take these bindings off your hands for $75. I'll even trade you an old pair of Plums if you prefer. ;)
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by telemon10
Phooey. I was pondering these, but I take occasional knee falls. WA touring isn’t always pretty. It’s also hard to pay for brand new binders and start by grinding off material. Looks like I’ll stick to kingpins for now.
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Thanks for playing "crash test dummy" and unraveling this, Lee!Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeLau
It will be interesting to see Fritschi's position on this, as well as whether these gen. 1 (gen. 4?) Evo/Tecton toe pieces will go back for updates this Summer.
... Thom
I could count the number of skinning falls I have had on both hands, I am sure the shells will punch back out. Seems a design flaw but hopefully LeeL will share his info from Fritschi.
We are not getting this kind of feedback from anyone on shifts.
I wonder how much testing Salomon does compared to fritschi. Alkasquauwlik made it sound like Salomon puts a lot of time in to testing the bindings. Maybe the issue is that companies test with industry guys that are generally good skiers. If the fritschi team is half as best as I am, I doubt anyone on their team fell forward. Also does fritschi test with multiple brands of boots? Does Salomon only test with Salomon boots...?
Yeah cause there ain't anyone on Shifts yet.
Kinda shit when you have to finish your tour with curled up toes..... for 600 bucks
Some basic pre-launch multi-brand boot testing should've easily highlighted this.
It sucks as a consumer, and I want to take this opportunity to thank all of you 2017/18 paying beta testers for your selfless service ;-) Unfortunately (unlike software), you can't just download an update :-(Quote:
Originally Posted by daught
If I read Lee's comments correctly, this isn't boot-specific, but rather a "feature" of the toe being in walk mode. Well, they tried to work around the two bumper system of the previous versions, but not successfully.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyderjon
I get that everyone misses something, no matter how diligent they are (and I'm a big fan of Fritschi), but missing this one was a bad move.
I wonder if the Fritschi testers consider walk mode to be unnecessary? Obviously, if the walk mode position exists, it needs to be tested - something that could have easily been uncovered on the bench - even before field testing.
... Thom
My bad, for some reason I'd interpretted it as boot specific but a front impact is obviously going to happen to every boot, the only boot specific element will be how bad the damage is.Quote:
Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un
And yes, not being boot specific really makes the issue (error) worse.
I know that Dynafit have had their 1st gen issues on models & that Marker had an initial Kingpin issue but I was skiing a pre-production Beast & Kingpin a season before they were released. And it's well documented how long Salomon have been working on their tech offerings.
I remember the Vipec being launched at ISPO a couple of years ago and they were asking for dealer orders for Autumn delivery when all they had at the show was a crappy 3D printed model. There was no way they were going to have a properly tested binding in time and now 4/5 generations later they've got another major problem. My take on it was that after years of selling their frame bindings against tech bindings that Fritschi new they had to get in to the tech game real quick or die so everything was rushed & it appears to be the case here too. I think they have an elegant design but they've just not done the ground work.
Well the 2nd and 3rd generation vipecs have almost zero problems and lots of people using them successfully.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyderjon
I dont disagree with your points but a solid design and manufacturing process has proved itself for BD/fritschi for some of their binding generations.
So...maybe the move is to pair my vipec black toe with the tecton heel?
Whoa. I've been skiing pow so haven't followed up with Fritschi yet.
I described the circumstance on how the boot impact occurred precisely so you all could see how it occurred. As meterman and CLong so ( sarcastically ) remarked, it's rare but it can happen. I did this before contacting Fritschi because you all as paying consumers should know about it, and how it occurred so you can decide for yourself whether to go/no-go with Tecton as opposed to the timelag of waiting for a response.
Now take a look at the older black Vipec toe from last model year. The toe contact on the older Vipecs were lower profile. It's noteworthy that the boot dent issue could not happen in a knee fall on older Vipecs toes
My next to-do
1. Go to a shop and see if the lower profile toe bumps on the older Black Vipecs can be swapped onto newer Tecton and Evo toes. I think they can. The Tecton toe bump looks like they're held on by press fit pins which can be punched
2. Get hold of Fritschi/BD and see if this is a known issue and can be resolved.
Btw full disclosure. I am reviewing this binding and this will be part of the review
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...fd880180a3.jpg
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On the Black toe, the boot contacts the swappable bumper and directly pushes the toe lever down to open the wings. Simple.
On the Evo/Tecton, the boot pushes a sliding cam mechanism, which in turn pushes down the toe lever. The cam mechanism is probably intended to reduce the amount of boot force needed to lower the toe lever so that adjusting for a specific boot with the assortment of bumpers isn't required, but something is going wrong.
Hopefully the solution is as simple as greasing these small moving parts so they don't freeze together or hang up. I'll take a closer look sometime in the next week.
Thanks for that!Quote:
Originally Posted by 1000-oaks
I got curious as to whether the bumper would actuate the release with my Black toes with the lever flipped up to walk mode. It does (I never fell forward in walk mode).
... Thom