Home Remodel: Do, Don'ts, Advice

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Originally Posted by Danno

though not sure how asking them that question would help, as I wouldn't be able to evaluate the answer...

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It won't help you. I'm just curious because you said, "...the only time they check on licensure is if the inspector comes out and the work done is shit and clearly not up to code. " So I was just curious if this crew actually knows the applicable building code for your remodel.

It doesn't really matter, I'm sure they'll do an excellent job. I just hear people talk about "the code" all the time when in reality they have no idea what the "code" really is.

When you pull the permit, I view you as the GC. Makes a big difference if the shit hits the fan. I'm sure it won't, but just saying.

Don't worry, everything is going to be all good.

^^^isn't that kind of a trick question. I mean, without looking I'm sure Boulder is on 2012 ICC including:

2012 International Building Code (IBC)
2012 International Residential Code (IRC)
2012 International Energy Conservation Code (IECC)
2011 National Electrical Code (NEC)

but ultimatly it's all about the on-site inspector and municipalities interpretation of the code. I deal with 3 different permiting entities and the all have there own idiosyncrasies while applying the same code set. Here are some questions examples:

Do you have to pressure test DWV?
Can the forced air furnace supply heat to an attached garage?
How do you insulate a 2X4 exterior wall on a remodel?
When do you have to install Arc faults in a remodel?

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Originally Posted by Below Zero

It won't help you. I'm just curious because you said, "...the only time they check on licensure is if the inspector comes out and the work done is shit and clearly not up to code. " So I was just curious if this crew actually knows the applicable building code for your remodel.

It doesn't really matter, I'm sure they'll do an excellent job. I just hear people talk about "the code" all the time when in reality they have no idea what the "code" really is.

When you pull the permit, I view you as the GC. Makes a big difference if the shit hits the fan. I'm sure it won't, but just saying.

Don't worry, everything is going to be all good.

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Well, this is certainly the shit that keeps me up at night. But like I said, going with the contractor pulling the permit doesn't change the worry. If "shit hits the fan" I'm still going to be screwed. Maybe not AS screwed, but still, it means that something went terribly wrong in my house and the job is stopped, costs a fortune to fix, yadda yadda yadda. And all of those still fall on me. These guys will be acting as the GC, heck they'll be doing all of the work themselves, so I'm only nominally the GC. Like I said, this seems to be an understood thing based on everything I hear, including talking to the building dept directly. It's not like I have to be at the inspection and act like a GC, as if I'm knowledgeable about what's going on. Seems like the city mostly just wants to get its permit money and get shit inspected, and if I'm willing to handle this stuff, they're willing to mostly look the other way. I'm still terrified, but I'd be terrified even if I hired the $130k guy.

Honestly, most residential contractors (myself included) are way more familiar with "best practices" that the verbatim code. I have the i-codes on my phone and check things when I have questions. Plumbers and electricians with there ongoing education and state licencing tend to be very familiar with their codes. Luckily, are building departments provide a list of applicable codes when I ask and are there to ask questions.

Danno, do I infer that you are having plumbing and electrical done by non-licenced plumbers and electricians? As BZ hinted, this is a little bit of a sketchy area as you are the GC. Will your homeowners/builder's risk protect you in the event that this work fails. I'm a contractor and I know that my insurance covers very minimal electrical and plumbing.

Remember, code compliance and workmanship are totally different things. Plumbing is a great example. Nobody is going to check that the valves under the vanity are sweat properly. As a cautionary tale, I plumber of mine had a brand new valve fail in a $1MM homer. I don't know the specifics but something about a hairline crack in a Brass Craft Valve. His insurance said is was a manufacturing defect. The manufacturer covered the repair +/-$25K only because he is a licenced master plumber.

No, not a trick question. The adopted building code, i.e. the applicable building code, is not based on year. It's whatever is adopted by the jurisdiction. Yes, Boulder has currently adopted the majority of the 2012 ICC model building codes with adopted amendments. The 2012 IBC is not applicable; the 2012 IRC would be applicable to residential remodels. Additionally, 2012 IRC Chapter 11, "Energy Efficiency" is amended.

If these guys are acting as the GC, then why aren't they pulling the permit? Of course there going to say for you to pull the permit, becasue that limits their liability. For example the bathroom guys, are they doing the plumbing and electrical? Are they licensed to do it? What does your contract state? Please tell me you have a contract for this work. What about insurance? Do they have insurance?

I've evaluated home remodels and new construction where the owner decides to "save some money" and hire all the contractors themselves, then when the shit hits the fan, they sue and claim to be the innocent homeowner who has been wronged and deny to be the GC. Well, when you pull the permit, hire different contractors, and coordinate the work....then guess what you're the GC and share in the responsibility.

What exactly is the scope of work for the "bathroom guy" and the "kitchen guy". Are you hiring anyone else to, let's say, install insulation, or install interior finishes. If so, will you be coordinating when they come to the site. If so, and from what I've mentioned before, you are the GC. Now again, nothing wrong with that, but just realize now you share in responsibilities for any mistakes.

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Originally Posted by Danno

So they could actually pull the permit for us, but then they would have to sub out those pieces, whereas if we pull it they can do that work.

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OMG! I just noticed this. Please don't do this. This is a huge red flag!

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Originally Posted by Below Zero

If these guys are acting as the GC, then why aren't they pulling the permit? Of course there going to say for you to pull the permit, becasue that limits their liability. For example the bathroom guys, are they doing the plumbing and electrical? Are they licensed to do it? What does your contract state? Please tell me you have a contract for this work. What about insurance? Do they have insurance?

I've evaluated home remodels and new construction where the owner decides to "save some money" and hire all the contractors themselves, then when the shit hits the fan, they sue and claim to be the innocent homeowner who has been wronged and deny to be the GC. Well, when you pull the permit, hire different contractors, and coordinate the work....then guess what you're the GC and share in the responsibility.

What exactly is the scope of work for the "bathroom guy" and the "kitchen guy". Are you hiring anyone else to, let's say, install insulation, or install interior finishes. If so, will you be coordinating when they come to the site. If so, and from what I've mentioned before, you are the GC. Now again, nothing wrong with that, but just realize now you share in responsibilities for any mistakes.

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Yes, both kitchen guys and bath guys will be doing all the work themselves. There may be a few odds and ends they sub out, but basically will do all of it, and to the extent they don't, they will coordinate it. As for why they aren't pulling the permit: kitchen guy is not licensed in Boulder (is licensed in other munis); bathroom guy: could pull the permit, but then couldn't do all the work themselves, and subbing it out would cost a lot more. So yes, with them, we both are in agreement that me pulling the permit is a cost saving measure because it allows them to do all the work. As for contracts, we don't have anything yet, but we will. And we will make certain they're insured. To date, no work has been done, no money expended, etc.

I think we are on the same page. Because I procrastinate wickedly when doing office work, I checked there website. Here are the 94 pages of amendments https://documents.bouldercolorado.go...728/Page1.aspx

Part of my job is figure out the applicable codes in pre-construction and not failing inspections. Luckily, I have a good track record and relationship with the building departments and a reputation for wanting to do things right. If I have questions, they get answered. I get the impression that in larger cities, you don't get to have a dialog with the inspector so the protocols are probably different.

when you said you're hiring the subs, I was assuming the plumber and electrician would still be pulling their trade permits

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Originally Posted by Below Zero

OMG! I just noticed this. Please don't do this. This is a huge red flag!

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I don't know what to tell you. It's a red flag in that the work won't be done by a master plumber, but they are upfront with us about that; it's not like they're lying or trying to deceive us. I very much appreciate your advice, and I get where you're coming from, but I also get that your viewpoint is from a certain angle so to speak. The reality is that there are tons of small operations out there doing remodels, we've talked to a ton, and EVERYONE has a different fucking answer for us. It's frustrating as hell. Numerous people say what you say, and then there are people who have had tons of work done with no permits whatsoever. We are checking references, and both of these guys came to us via referral to begin with. The bids we got from the fully permitted folk were north of $100k. So, we could take your advice and get a nice kitchen and nothing else, or we can not take your advice and get a nice kitchen and 2 bathrooms, with the possible chance that we're gonna die. WTF.

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Originally Posted by Below Zero

OMG! I just noticed this. Please don't do this. This is a huge red flag!

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I didn't say it quite like that. Danno, I'm not alarmist and a understand that now matter how the work gets done, the worst case scenario is very daunting. That said, I don't think you are picking up what I am laying down. It has very little to do with workmanship and everything to do with who is insured for what. There is plenty of plumbing and electrical that I can do and at my house I do it and I'm insured by my homeowners for it. At my jobs, I don't even set a toilet or change an outlet. Here are a couple senarios I want you to consider.

a. non-licenced electrician uses an undersized wire or has a loose neutral in the panel and a fire starts.

b. non-licenced plumber doesn't properly install the toilet valve and the house floods.

Will your homeowner's pay? Will his liability pay? They are honest questions that I don't know the answer to. Alot of contractor's insurance covers "light plumbing and electrical" but I don't know where the line is.

Danno, I tend to think about what the worse thing that could happen. For the most part, if you are hiring quality guys then everything should go off without a hitch and you'll have a great kitchen and bathroom remodel that you'll love.

Now, if you want to cover your ass, then this is my suggestion.

1. Treat each remodel as a different project.
2. Hire the "kitchen guys" as the GC for the kitchen remodel
3. Hire the "bathroom guys" as the GC for the bathroom remodel.
4. Have the two GC provide a detailed bid for the scope of work.
5. Sign a contract with each. I'd suggest AIA Document A105 - Standard Form of Agreement Between Owner and Contractor for Residential of Small Commercial Project. Cross out all section that don't apply. Attached the detailed bid to the contract. This contract will define the scope of work, define the contract sum, define the schedule, outline the insurance, discuss the roles of both you the owner and the contractor, discusses warranty, discusses applications for payment, discuss changes in the work, etc. You need a contract like this!
6. Now, you're just an owner and all the responsibilities of the owner and the contract are outlined in the contract.

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Originally Posted by Danno

Numerous people say what you say, and then there are people who have had tons of work done with no permits whatsoever.

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Of course. It's kind of like saying, "I've driven years without a seatbelt, and look at me, I'm fine." Yeah, sure you can drive for years without a seatbelt, get to your destination and not be involved in an accident and seriously hurt, but all it takes is that one time!

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Originally Posted by Below Zero

Danno, I tend to think about what the worse thing that could happen. For the most part, if you are hiring quality guys then everything should go off without a hitch and you'll have a great kitchen and bathroom remodel that you'll love.

Now, if you want to cover your ass, then this is my suggestion.

1. Treat each remodel as a different project.
2. Hire the "kitchen guys" as the GC for the kitchen remodel
3. Hire the "bathroom guys" as the GC for the bathroom remodel.
4. Have the two GC provide a detailed bid for the scope of work.
5. Sign a contract with each. I'd suggest AIA Document A105 - Standard Form of Agreement Between Owner and Contractor for Residential of Small Commercial Project. Cross out all section that don't apply. Attached the detailed bid to the contract. This contract will define the scope of work, define the contract sum, define the schedule, outline the insurance, discuss the roles of both you the owner and the contractor, discusses warranty, discusses applications for payment, discuss changes in the work, etc. You need a contract like this!
6. Now, you're just an owner and all the responsibilities of the owner and the contract are outlined in the contract.

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Thanks. We are planning on 1-3, have done so informally, and my intent is to do 4-6. Thanks for the heads up on that form contract, I will seek it out.

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Originally Posted by Below Zero

Of course. It's kind of like saying, "I've driven years without a seatbelt, and look at me, I'm fine." Yeah, sure you can drive for years without a seatbelt, get to your destination and not be involved in an accident and seriously hurt, but all it takes is that one time!

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Absolutely get it. But throw in "hey, this bus ticket will cost you $50, but it's an extra $150 if you want a seatbelt" and do you buy the seat with a seatbelt, or roll the dice that the bus driver does this for a living and the odds are in your favor? All it takes is that one time to make the extra $150 worth it, but for a single bus trip, do you but the $200 ticket or roll the dice on the $50 ticket.

I guess what I don't understand is "it's gonna cost a whole lot more licensed plumber and electrician". Sure the trades bill out more per hour than a carpenter but they are also better/more efficient. The scope of plumbing and electrical can't be that much. I'd be interested in the response if you ask, "how much more if we use a licensed sparky and plumber ?". My guess is that a. they are greedy and want the $ for themselves b. don't have the established relationships c. don't want to deal with the project management part of scheduling the trades. When you look at their estimate/bid check the line items for plumbing and electrical and ask at what hourly. It can't be more that a couple $K.

Isn't the building inspector going to want to see the electrical and plumbing inspection stickers, before he/she issues a close-in sticker? I guess some jurisdictions allow the homeowner to do his own plumbing and electric but you still need permits and inspections.

this thread delivers enjoy reading it best of luck keep us updated

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Originally Posted by Below Zero

Danno, I tend to think about what the worse thing that could happen. For the most part, if you are hiring quality guys then everything should go off without a hitch and you'll have a great kitchen and bathroom remodel that you'll love.

Now, if you want to cover your ass, then this is my suggestion.

1. Treat each remodel as a different project.
2. Hire the "kitchen guys" as the GC for the kitchen remodel
3. Hire the "bathroom guys" as the GC for the bathroom remodel.
4. Have the two GC provide a detailed bid for the scope of work.
5. Sign a contract with each. I'd suggest AIA Document A105 - Standard Form of Agreement Between Owner and Contractor for Residential of Small Commercial Project. Cross out all section that don't apply. Attached the detailed bid to the contract. This contract will define the scope of work, define the contract sum, define the schedule, outline the insurance, discuss the roles of both you the owner and the contractor, discusses warranty, discusses applications for payment, discuss changes in the work, etc. You need a contract like this!
6. Now, you're just an owner and all the responsibilities of the owner and the contract are outlined in the contract.

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this is the best advise you have gotten so far follow all the steps

I hate AIA contracts total bulsshit unless your the customer, they work heavily for the customer and not the contractor

in reality letting some jerk offs into your house to tear it apart and put it together is pretty sketchy cause you never know who they really are and what they can and can't do, I feel sorry for people sometimes, cause they make all the wrong decisions and end up completly ass fucked

at least he found his "guys" on referal, one good step, he coulda found them on angies list or home advisor or craigs list

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Originally Posted by Below Zero

Danno, I tend to think about what the worse thing that could happen. For the most part, if you are hiring quality guys then everything should go off without a hitch and you'll have a great kitchen and bathroom remodel that you'll love.

Now, if you want to cover your ass, then this is my suggestion.

1. Treat each remodel as a different project.
2. Hire the "kitchen guys" as the GC for the kitchen remodel
3. Hire the "bathroom guys" as the GC for the bathroom remodel.
4. Have the two GC provide a detailed bid for the scope of work.
5. Sign a contract with each. I'd suggest AIA Document A105 - Standard Form of Agreement Between Owner and Contractor for Residential of Small Commercial Project. Cross out all section that don't apply. Attached the detailed bid to the contract. This contract will define the scope of work, define the contract sum, define the schedule, outline the insurance, discuss the roles of both you the owner and the contractor, discusses warranty, discusses applications for payment, discuss changes in the work, etc. You need a contract like this!
6. Now, you're just an owner and all the responsibilities of the owner and the contract are outlined in the contract.

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this is the best advise you have gotten so far follow all the steps

I hate AIA contracts total bulsshit unless your the customer, they work heavily for the customer and not the contractor

in reality letting some jerk offs into your house to tear it apart and put it together is pretty sketchy cause you never know who they really are and what they can and can't do, I feel sorry for people sometimes, cause they make all the wrong decisions and end up completly ass fucked

at least he found his "guys" on referal, one good step, he coulda found them on angies list or home advisor or craigs list

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Originally Posted by fastfred

I hate AIA contracts total bulsshit unless your the customer, they work heavily for the customer and not the contractor

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This is not correct. They are fair to both the owner and the contractor. They've been used over 100 years and have been scrutinized by attorneys, architects, engineers, contractors, lawyers, insurance companies, etc. and have been found to be fair for both parties. Yes, I know the AGC has an issue with the 2007 A201 General Conditions, and they endorse ConsesusDocs, but that would be a whole different conversation.

I really would like to know what specific section of an Owner/Contractor agreement you find that is not fair to the contractor.

Damn, I have to pay 80 bucks for that contract?

May just use it as a sample to create my own, seems easy enough.

Dentists shouldn't be writing their own contracts, Danno. You just focus on extracting teeth and leave the lawyering to the lawyers. ;)

Good point.

Lots of good stuff here, I may be in the same boat come spring.

You better post some pics after all of this. ;)