The Official Gun Control Debate thread

I think my friend addressed the issue very well in reference to the VT shooting:

"I assumed anytime a handgun is used, the "gun control" activist comes out. Even if gun control had been in effect, this mentally and deranged person would had figured out a way to cause such demise.

They are suspecting that he was an author of some threatening letters of potential bomb threats. With some basic knowledge, and ability to gather information, we are aware that he would had been able to accomplish that as well if he wanted to.

Instead of focusing on the etiology of the problem, we'd much rather pass it off for more regulations. On the vein, it has been reported of ignored and brushhed off suggestions from professors and staff who were aware of potential problems of from letters and stories that he had written for class. Even though one professor reported her concerns to the campus psychiatric counselor, she was told that they could do nothing until a violent act occurred!

Again, we do not want to attempt to understand the problem. The shooter is now of course being described as a loner, non active or social person with potential problems. Instead of funding gun control, stricter restrictions, maybe we should increase funding for research and treatment of those that apparently have mental disorders. Obviously, there is certain traits, as profilers can compile and describe the psychological problems, yet we cut mental health funding. Maybe we should address more areas of this in schools, promote warning signs, and if someone does present such profile and warnings as was noted, be addressed and investigated for potential problems, and treated if deemed necessary."

There 3 ways to try to prevent these tragedies:

THE CAUSE
You can try to look out for disturbed individuals and try to get them help and prevent them from going far with their insanity. Also, the caustive factors can be mitigated preemptively.

THE MEANS
Try to take away the methods the psychotic people use and then just hope they don't find another way.

COUNTERFORCE
Have some means to defend you and yours when a crazy person exercises their means to mayhem.

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Amazingly people want to concentrate only on the MEANS, the most dubious and difficult way to try and stop such problems! Idiocy!

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Originally Posted by Summit

I think my friend addressed the issue very well in reference to the VT shooting:

"I assumed anytime a handgun is used, the "gun control" activist comes out. Even if gun control had been in effect, this mentally and deranged person would had figured out a way to cause such demise.

They are suspecting that he was an author of some threatening letters of potential bomb threats. With some basic knowledge, and ability to gather information, we are aware that he would had been able to accomplish that as well if he wanted to.

Instead of focusing on the etiology of the problem, we'd much rather pass it off for more regulations. On the vein, it has been reported of ignored and brushhed off suggestions from professors and staff who were aware of potential problems of from letters and stories that he had written for class. Even though one professor reported her concerns to the campus psychiatric counselor, she was told that they could do nothing until a violent act occurred!

Again, we do not want to attempt to understand the problem. The shooter is now of course being described as a loner, non active or social person with potential problems. Instead of funding gun control, stricter restrictions, maybe we should increase funding for research and treatment of those that apparently have mental disorders. Obviously, there is certain traits, as profilers can compile and describe the psychological problems, yet we cut mental health funding. Maybe we should address more areas of this in schools, promote warning signs, and if someone does present such profile and warnings as was noted, be addressed and investigated for potential problems, and treated if deemed necessary."

There 3 ways to try to prevent these tragedies:

THE CAUSE
You can try to look out for disturbed individuals and try to get them help and prevent them from going far with their insanity. Also, the caustive factors can be mitigated preemptively.

THE MEANS
Try to take away the methods the psychotic people use and then just hope they don't find another way.

COUNTERFORCE
Have some means to defend you and yours when a crazy person exercises their means to mayhem.

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Amazingly people want to concentrate only on the MEANS, the most dubious and difficult way to try and stop such problems! Idiocy!

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You forgot to use a helpful diagram. I am here to help.

http://www.camouflaged-learning.com/images/pac.jpg

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Originally Posted by Hurricane

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

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The gun sure makes it a hell of a lot easier.

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Originally Posted by The AD

The gun sure makes it a hell of a lot easier.

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In 2004 2/3rds of all homicides were made easier with the use of a gun :rolleyes2

Do you gun control people honestly believe you'll get all the handguns out of circulation?

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Originally Posted by Summit

I think my friend addressed the issue very well in reference to the VT shooting:

"I assumed anytime a handgun is used, the "gun control" activist comes out. Even if gun control had been in effect, this mentally and deranged person would had figured out a way to cause such demise.

They are suspecting that he was an author of some threatening letters of potential bomb threats. With some basic knowledge, and ability to gather information, we are aware that he would had been able to accomplish that as well if he wanted to.

Instead of focusing on the etiology of the problem, we'd much rather pass it off for more regulations. On the vein, it has been reported of ignored and brushhed off suggestions from professors and staff who were aware of potential problems of from letters and stories that he had written for class. Even though one professor reported her concerns to the campus psychiatric counselor, she was told that they could do nothing until a violent act occurred!

Again, we do not want to attempt to understand the problem. The shooter is now of course being described as a loner, non active or social person with potential problems. Instead of funding gun control, stricter restrictions, maybe we should increase funding for research and treatment of those that apparently have mental disorders. Obviously, there is certain traits, as profilers can compile and describe the psychological problems, yet we cut mental health funding. Maybe we should address more areas of this in schools, promote warning signs, and if someone does present such profile and warnings as was noted, be addressed and investigated for potential problems, and treated if deemed necessary."

There 3 ways to try to prevent these tragedies:

THE CAUSE
You can try to look out for disturbed individuals and try to get them help and prevent them from going far with their insanity. Also, the caustive factors can be mitigated preemptively.

THE MEANS
Try to take away the methods the psychotic people use and then just hope they don't find another way.

COUNTERFORCE
Have some means to defend you and yours when a crazy person exercises their means to mayhem.

---------------------

Amazingly people want to concentrate only on the MEANS, the most dubious and difficult way to try and stop such problems! Idiocy!

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OK, its waaay harder to successfully make and plant and effectively use a bomb than it is to buy a gun and start shooting in a room.

Am I a "gun control freak" for thinking its a good idea to make it harder to buy a handgun? Maybe, say, a backround check that would be thorough enough to find out that a guy has been on the police radar screeen and sent into therapy for suicidal tendencies, stalking 2 women and constantly writing violent poems and plays?
Such a thorough backround check may take a little longer, I know that might frustrate you clean-record-having, potential gun buyers when you NEED to shoot those cans and washing machines out in the woods TODAY.

The more information we find about this guy and his legal purchase of the guns used, his psychiatric and police history and the fact that Virginia permits conceal and carry but nobody stepped up vigilante style to take this guy out (like the 'armed society is a polite society' folks would have you believe).....it boggles my mind that gun devotees will not give an inch. Whats so wrong with making it harder to buy a gun? If you're clean of record and sane, you can still buy them, its just gonna take a few days longer....and maybe its a good idea not to sell semi-automatic assault rifles while we're at it. Unless you really hate the cans.

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Originally Posted by AsheanMT

Do you gun control people honestly believe you'll get all the handguns out of circulation?

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65 million are in circulation now. They're easy to get and some are silly cheap. What if there was more of a supply issue ? Would students or other marginalized elements of society be able to afford them if they were rarer ? I'm not sure anyone is advocating a total ban on handguns. Law enforcement likely would still need them even in a gunless culture. I'm comfortable with guns being a rich guy toy - they can afford the consequences :fm:

ps. When the Iranian embassy in London was taken over the plain clothes policeman 'guarding' it was armed. He didn't have the opportunity to use his weapon to prevent the crime. In fact when the special forces took back the embassy his possession of the handgun almost got him killed. What it all means with regard to US's gun culture I don't know :frown:

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Originally Posted by flowtron

OK, its waaay harder to successfully make and plant and effectively use a bomb than it is to buy a gun and start shooting in a room.

Am I a "gun control freak" for thinking its a good idea to make it harder to buy a handgun? Maybe, say, a backround check that would be thorough enough to find out that a guy has been on the police radar screeen and sent into therapy for suicidal tendencies, stalking 2 women and constantly writing violent poems and plays?
Such a thorough backround check may take a little longer, I know that might frustrate you clean-record-having, potential gun buyers when you NEED to shoot those cans and washing machines out in the woods TODAY.

The more information we find about this guy and his legal purchase of the guns used, his psychiatric and police history and the fact that Virginia permits conceal and carry but nobody stepped up vigilante style to take this guy out (like the 'armed society is a polite society' folks would have you believe).....it boggles my mind that gun devotees will not give an inch. Whats so wrong with making it harder to buy a gun? If you're clean of record and sane, you can still buy them, its just gonna take a few days longer....and maybe its a good idea not to sell semi-automatic assault rifles while we're at it. Unless you really hate the cans.

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These are certainly admirable ideas but if you think it is tough to get stricter gun laws in place wait until you tell people their psychiatric medical records are going into a big database the government controls and can monitor, along with what they wrote in their college english class, whether they got in fights with their siblings as a kid and who they pushed down on the playground in elementary school. Pardon my exageration but what you are proposing is akin to keeping track of those things(both in ease of implementation and the scope of personal info) and far more people are going to find that far more intrusive than gun control laws.

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Originally Posted by flowtron

Am I a "gun control freak" for thinking its a good idea to make it harder to buy a handgun? Maybe, say, a backround check that would be thorough enough to find out that a guy has been on the police radar screeen and sent into therapy for suicidal tendencies, stalking 2 women and constantly writing violent poems and plays?
....
The more information we find about this guy and his legal purchase of the guns used, his psychiatric and police history and the fact that Virginia permits conceal and carry but nobody stepped up vigilante style to take this guy out (like the 'armed society is a polite society' folks would have you believe).....

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How would they have found that out? There were no official police records that the background check would have pulled up! The medical facility determined him to be not crazy. The campus police didn't do any investigation. There were no recordds to find unless you are going to hire an investigative reporter for every application to go interview his teachers.

You have a lot of problems to fix before your magical psychic backcground checks would have done ANYTHING to prevent this tragedy.

Once again, you are obsessing on the means while saying that the cause and counterforce are meaningless solutions because they would conflict with your relentless pursuit of restricting means (guns).

I still feel removing guns from those that obey the law and leaving them in the hands of criminals is the best solution. Having read the latest posts on this thread, I can see many are on my side.

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Originally Posted by AsheanMT

Do you gun control people honestly believe you'll get all the handguns out of circulation?

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Consider attrition.
If far fewer new handguns are put out into the world, eventually far fewer guns will make it into the black market. Most of the illegal guns in criminal hands out there are not bought from ponytailed, Mercedes driving, international arms dealers fresh from Russia and Africa. They are stolen out of legal possession by burglars who know that when they go into a house to steal shit that the easiest, most profitable thing to move is a gun. When there are fewer guns out there, and perhaps better possesional safety measures are adhered to, prices will go up on the black market and fewer sketchy people will be able to afford them.
Nobody should think that we can make handguns go away overnight, thats a red herring pipe dream. But I think it is reasonable to think abut what will happen down the road if we start to implement stiffer control measures today.

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Originally Posted by yodaottis

I still feel removing guns from those that obey the law and leaving them in the hands of criminals is the best solution. Having read the latest posts on this thread, I can see many are on my side.

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Isn't that the current situation ? (Convicted) criminals can't buy guns if the law is enforced. So to get guns they steal them. From where ? From the ever increasing supply in legal hands. More guns equals more guns in the hands of the criminals.

So to a logical conclusion.

Legalize guns for criminals and they'd have less incentive to commit a crime to acquire guns and they could then more quickly conduct their target crime and so law 'enforcement' could more quickly get on the case and get it into the legal system more quickly so they can then sit on it 'til a prison bed opens up.

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Originally Posted by TruckeeLocal

In 2004 2/3rds of all homicides were made easier with the use of a gun :rolleyes2

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I don't know the percentage of homicides where the weapon used was a gun, but it's got to be pretty high. More than 2/3.

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Originally Posted by The AD

I don't know the percentage of homicides where the weapon used was a gun, but it's got to be pretty high. More than 2/3.

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OK, in the last year that CDC has published data, 2004, it's 67% which is more than 2/3rds.

Firearm
Year Homicides Homicdes
1999 16,889 10,828 64.1%
2000 16,765 10,801 64.4%
2001 20,308 11,348 55.9%
2002 17,638 11,829 67.1%
2003 17,732 11,920 67.2%
2004 17,357 11,624 67.0%

Now our gun toting NRA supporters will notice a slight downward trend in firearm homicides. Still above 30 a day but still ...

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Originally Posted by Summit

I
There 3 ways to try to prevent these tragedies:
THE CAUSE
You can try to look out for disturbed individuals and try to get them help and prevent them from going far with their insanity. Also, the caustive factors can be mitigated preemptively.
THE MEANS
Try to take away the methods the psychotic people use and then just hope they don't find another way.
COUNTERFORCE
Have some means to defend you and yours when a crazy person exercises their means to mayhem.

---------------------

Amazingly people want to concentrate only on the MEANS, the most dubious and difficult way to try and stop such problems! Idiocy!

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You love that Straw Man, and not suprizingly, he is very easy to knockdown, because no one is holding him up.

There has not been any gun control advocate also arguing against larger mental health budgets or to cut the social safety net. Instead the same Republican legislators that stymie any attempt to regulate guns also whack and slash at mental health funding, social services, rehab, and all the other interventions which might turn a disturbed person away from a tragic path.

For me, the most effective counterforce is a competent police force, not a bunch of vigilante fools shooting themselves and everybody around them. And, yes, my brother's neighbor blew his own thumb off, shooting at an imagined intruder.

None of us non-omniscient mortals can say whether any gun law or intervention would have stopped the tragedy in VT. What we can say is that countries with tougher gun laws have much lower rates of gun deaths and murder, not a very suprising conclusion. The in-your-face nature of the violence in US society makes me want to explore all the realistic approachs to reducing it. Looking at what works in other less violent countries seems like a reasonable place to start.

On a more personal note, my daughter a student at Boulder High, tells me that 60% of the students are expected to stay home tomorrow, because of repeated threats that everyone will die that day. The sickness is not far away.

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Originally Posted by TruckeeLocal

OK, in the last year that CDC has published data, 2004, it's 67% which is more than 2/3rds

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Yup, you're right. I found the data here: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicid...weaponstab.htm

I think people should control their guns so they don't kill people. They could, like, put them on a leash or something.

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Originally Posted by Summit

How would they have found that out? There were no official police records that the background check would have pulled up! The medical facility determined him to be not crazy. The campus police didn't do any investigation. There were no recordds to find unless you are going to hire an investigative reporter for every application to go interview his teachers.

You have a lot of problems to fix before your magical psychic backcground checks would have done ANYTHING to prevent this tragedy.

Once again, you are obsessing on the means while saying that the cause and counterforce are meaningless solutions because they would conflict with your relentless pursuit of restricting means (guns).

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I realize that the backround checks I just invented are highly improbable, but they don't seem too far off whatever data the TSA/HSA has in terms of what gets you on The List at the airport. Is some sort of documented "violent psychology" database too off the wall? As a gun dealer, if you had just some the information we now know about this guy, would you sell him a gun and extra clips?

It can't be farther off the wall than proposing that MORE handguns and armed citizens out in the world are gonna ultimately make us safer. As to what I think of the 'counterforce' argument....the conceal/carry permits(which I don't necessarily oppose as long are they are extremely well-regulated) in Virginia did not do anything to save the day. They didn't do anything in Salt Lake City a few months ago (the hero was an armed, well trained, off-duty cop), I would be happy to know of one potential shooting (mass, workplace, what-have-you) that was stymied or ended by a conceal and carry permitted person. "Make my day" property crimes don't count. I can tell you about some hippies in Boulder that beat a home invader to death with baseball bats.
If you qualify and they make you feel safer, great, but don't shovel that crap that armed teachers and a vastly armed citizenry is gonna make things safe.

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Originally Posted by flowtron

If you qualify and they make you feel safer, great, but don't shovel that crap that armed teachers and a vastly armed citizenry is gonna make things safe.

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It's estimated that a third of the US population owns a gun (or more). We must feel really safe and have next to no gun related crime or deaths with all that protection we've got going on.

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Originally Posted by flowtron

I realize that the backround checks I just invented are highly improbable, but they don't seem too far off whatever data the TSA/HSA has in terms of what gets you on The List at the airport. Is some sort of documented "violent psychology" database too off the wall?

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The TSA no fly list is very short and comes from US government intelligence agencies. ;)

I'm really a little confused on VA... because I thought involuntary commitment by the court to a psychiatric facility goes into the NCIS database which in turn should red flag someone like Cho when he went to purchase... dunno why it didn't show???

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the conceal/carry permits ... in Virginia did not do anything to save the day.

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CCW is PROHIBITED on the VT campus so it couldn't have done anything. VT is a "Gun Free Zone" (doesn't apply to law breaking crazies)

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

Because obviously if he'd become a naturalized citizen or was American by birth he'd never have gone on the rampage. :rolleyes:

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That's not the point... if we want to have some sort of sane, rational gun laws we could start by only allowing naturalized or citizens by birth to buy guns. Sure he would have done it anyway but there's tons of crime committed by illegal aliens and others who are not citizens. By giving them license to carry a firearm we are giving them an easy way to get away with carrying a gun -- then if they use a gun in a bad way they can just run back to their country of orgin.

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Originally Posted by tommyvee

Everybody sane agrees with me.

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Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

Then you have shown yourself to be a bigot. Thanks for letting us know.

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Not that I don't agree with your point but I think you throw the 'bigot' word around a little loosely. Using words like 'bigot' is often times a cheap way to disarm those people with a point when you feel counter-point is not strong enough. He certainly didn't talk in any way that would qualify him as a 'bigot' -- at least that I saw. He's just obviously has strong beliefs and can't understand how someone can't agree with him.

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Originally Posted by AsheanMT

Do you gun control people honestly believe you'll get all the handguns out of circulation?

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This is pretty much one of the cruxes of the arguement. Even if the majority of people agreed that guns should be banned there is no possible way to get rid of all the guns. Guns would become just like drugs -- we would have so many shipments of them coming in via gangs, etc. One of the sole purposes of a gang is to make money (and obviously safety in numbers). Gangs would easily find and bring in guns.

Assuming (unreasonably so but playing devil's advocate) that we could get all law abiding people to turn in their firearms, there is no way the criminals would not get their hands on them. It just would be absolutely impossible. Our government does not have the resources to jail people for every handgun violation. We let rapists, murderers, etc. out because we need room to house drug dealers whom you could argue commit victimless crimes.

There is just no reasonable way one could expect to get handguns out of the hands of all US citizens.

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Originally Posted by Crass3000

That's not the point... if we want to have some sort of sane, rational gun laws we could start by only allowing naturalized or citizens by birth to buy guns. Sure he would have done it anyway but there's tons of crime committed by illegal aliens and others who are not citizens. By giving them license to carry a firearm we are giving them an easy way to get away with carrying a gun -- then if they use a gun in a bad way they can just run back to their country of orgin.

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Tons? Really? Of gun crimes? Got some numbers?

Can illegal aliens currently obtain firearms legally?

I thought gun control didn't work because people who want to break the law with a gun will just obtain one illegally -

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Sure he would have done it anyway

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:confused: and if gun control is effective for immigrants why wouldn't it work for everyone?

How would becoming a naturalized citizen prevent anyone from being able to run to hide in another country? Again are you sure this is this a major issue? I can recall the recent case of a British man who'd fled the U.S. after the deaths of his wife and kids. Think he's now being/been extradited to stand trial in the U.S. after an undertaking that he'd not face death penalty.

Not that I really care, think it's that important, want a gun or that it has anything to do with the Virginia shooting.

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Originally Posted by Crass3000

There is just no reasonable way one could expect to get handguns out of the hands of all US citizens.

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The intellectally honest corrollary to this 'complacency' argument is that 12,000 firearm related deaths (let's pull out suicides) is an acceptable run rate to support our current interpretation of the 2nd amendment.

By the way considering there are an estimated 200 million firearms in circulation it is remarkable that our society only sustains 12,000 fatalities via said guns. It does suggest that the vast majority of firearms are not fired in anger. Hence, I think, the polarization of the discussion where one side looks at the fatalities and says "this is crazy" while the other side is saying "I've got/want a gun and you're crazy to say I, a responsible law abiding citizen/alien/illegal immigrant, shouldn't have one".