Do Mormons really affect you?

Bring em and bring em often!

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Originally Posted by bklyntrayc

It's all a bit easier to bear than the alternative... that when your lights go out, they go out forever.

That you're just as important in this universe as evaporated water. All your hopes and dreams, struggles, revelations, contributions like dust, within 200 years not to be remembered by family, friends or anyone who heard your voice and saw you in person. To be forgotten as if you never existed, your sole contribution a small fraction of a copy of a molecule you cannot see.

Would you not also do just about anything to ensure that your end was not an end but a transition? Would you not want to believe almost anything but that cold finality? Would you not find solace in the sacrifice of another, to stave off the abrupt stop of death, much less a god to come live among you and share mortal joys and suffering?

When all your senses and all you can perceive points to the cold unfairness of the cycle of life, comfort is found in myth/religion.

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Atheist here, Catholic upbringing. I'm pretty happy in the belief that my purpose in life is continuation of the species. I'm perfectly content in my insignificance in the universe. Good points, though. I also believe the reasons you presented provide strong motivation for people who need a religion.

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Originally Posted by bklyntrayc

It's all a bit easier to bear than the alternative... that when your lights go out, they go out forever.

That you're just as important in this universe as evaporated water. All your hopes and dreams, struggles, revelations, contributions like dust, within 200 years not to be remembered by family, friends or anyone who heard your voice and saw you in person. To be forgotten as if you never existed, your sole contribution a small fraction of a copy of a molecule you cannot see.

Would you not also do just about anything to ensure that your end was not an end but a transition? Would you not want to believe almost anything but that cold finality? Would you not find solace in the sacrifice of another, to stave off the abrupt stop of death, much less a god to come live among you and share mortal joys and suffering?

When all your senses and all you can perceive points to the cold unfairness of the cycle of life, comfort is found in myth/religion.

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okay, a literate post in a sea of chatter...guess i must respond.

I do not need the construct, or goal, of an afterlife in order to find meaning in the here-and-now of living. I think it is entirely possible to consider normal, non-god human beings (like martin luther king) to have an impact on humanity, short- and long-term. I consider jesus christ to have been, in all likelihood, an intensely charismatic yet humble historical figure who (obviously) had an impact. I find the modern Catholic church's attempts to rigorously define what recent event 'is' and 'is not' a 'miracle' simultaneously an absurd, near-laughable attempt to hold on to medieval, pre-scientific notions of how the universe works...and a weirdly noble, quixotic attempt to hold on to a world view untainted by science and facts.

I've read enough books on cults like Scientology and Mormonism to see the all-too-human motivations that apparently motivated their founders to define x,y, and z in certain ways. Pointing out the logical fallacies in most belief systems, especially ones of a more recent vintage that thrived as a result of a single charismatic leader, is like shooting ducks in a barrel---entirely too easy. But a bedrock principle of 'merican democracy is the idea that you can believe pretty much what you want to believe. Live and let live. More on that in a bit....

RE: racism...type in 'LDS racism' in google, and start reading, but we could cite other religions' failings ad infinitum. I know a few mormons about my age, and this is one of the hot buttons for them. They are smart enough to know that their church has an embedded, theologically-based racism (http://www.lds-mormon.com/racism.shtml) yet are hopeful that in recent decades the LDS church has tried to move beyond this. They tend to get a bit defensive on that topic...can't say I blame them. Must be hard to wrap their minds around the church's contortions. ( http://www.lds-mormon.com/legrand_richards.shtml ). But then there are plenty of catholics using birth control.

Anyway, back to the 'live and let live' idea. Most of us say we're for that idea. Equality of beliefs, religions, cults, whatever. But in practice all belief systems are not equally valued in any society. For example, a small cult in India I read about in Harper's magazine that performs ritual eating of human flesh is unlikely to be the next hot religion in the USA (or India, for that matter). The old-school form of Mormonism that enshrined the polygamy ideal, and pressured young women and girls into a marriage that arguably was (and is) a form of statuatory rape became a real stumbling block toward larger societal acceptance and had to be nominally discarded by the church.

So society as a whole does draw the line somewhere, and the location of that line does change over time. Religions can adapt and evolve, or hold steadfast to a fundamentalist interpretation. I think it's dishonest to pretend that all of us equally value all belief systems. We don't. Even the most democractic and open-minded of us don't. Why? And, using Mormonism as an example since this thread has been focussed on that, why does it bug folks more than some other religions do? From what I've observed, there are several reasons.

one reason has to do with history, or lack of it. it's hard to be deeply impressed by a suburban house built in 1998 when compared to, say, a roman building thousands of years old. all relatively new religions have to grapple with this issue.

another reason is the emphasis on proselytizing. this thread certainly recounts enough examples of that. there's a line between offering a belief system when asked, vs trying to convert anyone who is naive enough to answer the doorbell.

another is the insane arrogance associated with 'converting' dead people to mormonism against the wishes of their own family. this is one reason for the friction between american jews and mormons....a whole generation of jews died in the holocaust for being jewish, and some pasty white guy in SLC is performing a ritual to redefine those deceased jews as mormons? :rolleyes2

i suspect that as mormonism gets larger and more mainstream, it will continue to evolve and adapt to survive. if you read the history of religions, you see real fast that the fast-growing ones tend to claim that god wants you to a) have lots of children, and raise them in the faith b) actively convert adults whenever possible. it ain't rocket science to see that a low-key religion that overlooks a & b will remain a historical footnote. But the third characteristic of a religion that sticks around for centuries is that it must have a built-in method for redefining fundamental truths in a way that simultaneously lets the church adapt to ever-changing societal shifts, yet still maintain that these changes are somehow directly approved by god.

in closing, i'd like to point out that the best thing about this thread was the reference to 'satin'. :the_finge :the_finge :yourock:

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Originally Posted by Mybad!

This is an interesting piece on Mormons and how the military is trying to tap into their knowledge of obscure and hard to learn languages they aquire through missionary experience. Anybody know Pharsee?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=4232716

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My girlfriend does... she lived in Ghana for two years in the peace corps... I think she knows more twee though.

[insert sarcastic rant] ohhh and as far as this whole Mormon thing goes... I just wasted my time reading this.... but here is the honest truth... They all have horns, wear strange undergarments, are republican, and creepy. So shut the hell up and go back to Boulder, drive 2 hours to the mountains, play your hippie drum, smoke some weed, and enjoy the f'n crowds at Breckenfridge.[end sarcastic rant]

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Originally Posted by flykdog

You have no idea how oppressive it is here! yada yada

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just because the things that make utah frustrating don't bother you doesn't mean those of us who are bothered by them are fools or that we're irrational.

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Originally Posted by frorider

okay, a literate post in a sea of chatter...guess i must respond.

I do not need the construct, or goal, of an afterlife in order to find meaning in the here-and-now of living. I think it is entirely possible to consider normal, non-god human beings (like martin luther king) to have an impact on humanity, short- and long-term. I consider jesus christ to have been, in all likelihood, an intensely charismatic yet humble historical figure who (obviously) had an impact. I find the modern Catholic church's attempts to rigorously define what recent event 'is' and 'is not' a 'miracle' simultaneously an absurd, near-laughable attempt to hold on to medieval, pre-scientific notions of how the universe works...and a weirdly noble, quixotic attempt to hold on to a world view untainted by science and facts.

I've read enough books on cults like Scientology and Mormonism to see the all-too-human motivations that apparently motivated their founders to define x,y, and z in certain ways. Pointing out the logical fallacies in most belief systems, especially ones of a more recent vintage that thrived as a result of a single charismatic leader, is like shooting ducks in a barrel---entirely too easy. But a bedrock principle of 'merican democracy is the idea that you can believe pretty much what you want to believe. Live and let live. More on that in a bit....

RE: racism...type in 'LDS racism' in google, and start reading, but we could cite other religions' failings ad infinitum. I know a few mormons about my age, and this is one of the hot buttons for them. They are smart enough to know that their church has an embedded, theologically-based racism (http://www.lds-mormon.com/racism.shtml) yet are hopeful that in recent decades the LDS church has tried to move beyond this. They tend to get a bit defensive on that topic...can't say I blame them. Must be hard to wrap their minds around the church's contortions. ( http://www.lds-mormon.com/legrand_richards.shtml ). But then there are plenty of catholics using birth control.

Anyway, back to the 'live and let live' idea. Most of us say we're for that idea. Equality of beliefs, religions, cults, whatever. But in practice all belief systems are not equally valued in any society. For example, a small cult in India I read about in Harper's magazine that performs ritual eating of human flesh is unlikely to be the next hot religion in the USA (or India, for that matter). The old-school form of Mormonism that enshrined the polygamy ideal, and pressured young women and girls into a marriage that arguably was (and is) a form of statuatory rape became a real stumbling block toward larger societal acceptance and had to be nominally discarded by the church.

So society as a whole does draw the line somewhere, and the location of that line does change over time. Religions can adapt and evolve, or hold steadfast to a fundamentalist interpretation. I think it's dishonest to pretend that all of us equally value all belief systems. We don't. Even the most democractic and open-minded of us don't. Why? And, using Mormonism as an example since this thread has been focussed on that, why does it bug folks more than some other religions do? From what I've observed, there are several reasons.

one reason has to do with history, or lack of it. it's hard to be deeply impressed by a suburban house built in 1998 when compared to, say, a roman building thousands of years old. all relatively new religions have to grapple with this issue.

another reason is the emphasis on proselytizing. this thread certainly recounts enough examples of that. there's a line between offering a belief system when asked, vs trying to convert anyone who is naive enough to answer the doorbell.

another is the insane arrogance associated with 'converting' dead people to mormonism against the wishes of their own family. this is one reason for the friction between american jews and mormons....a whole generation of jews died in the holocaust for being jewish, and some pasty white guy in SLC is performing a ritual to redefine those deceased jews as mormons? :rolleyes2

i suspect that as mormonism gets larger and more mainstream, it will continue to evolve and adapt to survive. if you read the history of religions, you see real fast that the fast-growing ones tend to claim that god wants you to a) have lots of children, and raise them in the faith b) actively convert adults whenever possible. it ain't rocket science to see that a low-key religion that overlooks a & b will remain a historical footnote. But the third characteristic of a religion that sticks around for centuries is that it must have a built-in method for redefining fundamental truths in a way that simultaneously lets the church adapt to ever-changing societal shifts, yet still maintain that these changes are somehow directly approved by god.

in closing, i'd like to point out that the best thing about this thread was the reference to 'satin'. :the_finge :the_finge :yourock:

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Very well said and enlightening... good job sorting out issues and illustrating points. I give this post an "A". Facinating shit this religion stuff...

BRIGHAM YOUNG
Journal of Discourses

Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African Race? If the White man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.

Vol. 7, pg. 290-291

Cain slew his brother. . . and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin.

You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the "servant of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed.

That is some of the most disgusting shit I've ever read. Sorry if I've offended anybody but there it is.

Trayc: It's the Universal Mystery - what happens to our essence (our soul) when we die? Hindus & Buddhists believe in reincarnation. Muslims, Christians, and Jews believe in a Heaven/Hell choice. It is a fundamental question for a self-conscious being.

Many parents see their children as their legacy, that regardless of who is right, at least you'll leave something of yourself behind, even if subsequent generations will dilute that genetic and cultural stamp. I have no need to be famous. I'm sure the future will be fine without my "input."

I'd like to come back as a River Otter. They look like they enjoy their lives fully.

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Originally Posted by bad_roo

BRIGHAM YOUNG
Journal of Discourses

Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African Race? If the White man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.

Vol. 7, pg. 290-291

Cain slew his brother. . . and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin.

You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the "servant of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed.

That is some of the most disgusting shit I've ever read. Sorry if I've offended anybody but there it is.

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I assume that's real, so a "Holy Shit!" is in order. Of course this doctrine has somehow now been altered to fit with more modern norms, but still WTF???? Any mormons have anything to say to this? I find it amazing people bought (and buy) this shit.

TrayC your post reminds me of one of my favorite songs:

I could feel at the time
There was no way of knowing
Fallen leaves in the night
Who can say where they´re blowing
As free as the wind
And hopefully learning
Why the sea on the tide
Has no way of turning
More than this - there is nothing
More than this - tell me one thing
More than this - there is nothing
It was fun for a while
There was no way of knowing
Like dream in the night
Who can say where we´re going
No care in the world
Maybe I´m learning
Why the sea on the tide
Has no way of turning
More than this - there is nothing
More than this - tell me one thing
More than this - there is nothing

Sprite

I don't have the time to check out whether it was said, who said it, or what their position was more than 150-something years ago. But, that does certainly remind us all of just how starkly bizarre and shocking seem statements from the 1800's when held to the light of the 21st century.

Everyone believes in the theory of evolution, no? You know; we all come from the same first living cell, and from that each form of life on earth has been created through a long string of parents giving birth to children, all children being a little bit different than his/her/its parents.

So for those of you who believe in the "soul", I would like you to answer two questions for me;

1; Do you believe that trees and amoebas have souls?

2; If the answer to q1 is no, how did parents without a soul give birth to a child with a soul?

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Originally Posted by MacDaddy

You might want to do a search on "SLC- Utah, moving" this has been rehashed to the death.

Its more than beer here. Its about education, lack of separation between church & state, oppressive gov, neighbors that wont let your kids play with their kids, nasty republicans, weird changes in dates of holidays, no SNL on NBC. Its getting better however, and the real estate market is hot, so you best make a decision soon.

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And dont forget all those raging parties where the Mos are getting wasted on milk!:p

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Originally Posted by KANUTTEN

Everyone believes in the theory of evolution, no? You know; we all come from the same first living cell, and from that each form of life on earth has been created through a long string of parents giving birth to children, all children being a little bit different than his/her/its parents.

So for those of you who believe in the "soul", I would like you to answer two questions for me;

1; Do you believe that trees and amoebas have souls?

2; If the answer to q1 is no, how did parents without a soul give birth to a child with a soul?

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Umm, your the one who had a near death experience. You tell us the answer. :confused:

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Originally Posted by Booger

And dont forget all those raging parties where the Mos are getting wasted on milk!:p

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You mean cough syrup...

'don't have the time'...to click a link...check out what the church leaders have said? as recently as the 60s even. hmmm interesting for someone on the board as much.
frorider well put, and thanks for the link. that site looks factual and accurate. i never even bothered to look before, but now that i've bookmarked it i'll be reading every page. my grandfather is really starting to get on my case about coming back...

To reply to the question yes.

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Originally Posted by crashgirl

'don't have the time'...to click a link...check out what the church leaders have said? as recently as the 60s even. hmmm interesting for someone on the board as much.
frorider well put, and thanks for the link. that site looks factual and accurate. i never even bothered to look before, but now that i've bookmarked it i'll be reading every page. my grandfather is really starting to get on my case about coming back...

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so it looks like at least 2 people (you and bigdaddy) read my long-azz post without falling asleep. :wink:

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Originally Posted by crashgirl

my grandfather is really starting to get on my case about coming back...

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Sucker.......

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Originally Posted by Tuckerman

Sucker.......

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oh, i won't be going back...i'll just have something intellegent to respond to him with

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Originally Posted by frorider

so it looks like at least 2 people (you and bigdaddy) read my long-azz post without falling asleep. :wink:

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Nice post.

I can't believe I just waded through 12 pages of this. What a great time waster. Here is my input and some things I've learned:
Z's mom and my mom have similar views of utah. :confused:
brigham young the man and university disgust me.
Strawberry milk is holier than banana milk.
Fry sauce is the shit.

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Originally Posted by KANUTTEN

Everyone believes in the theory of evolution, no?

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Uhh....I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

A huge religious minority in the US denies the whole idea of evolution.

"I didn't come from no damn monkey!" :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by RootSkier

"I didn't come from no damn monkey!" :rolleyes:

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Nope, they come from Buttmonkeys. Thats why they always have that look of disbelief.

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Originally Posted by RootSkier

Uhh....I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

A huge religious minority in the US denies the whole idea of evolution.

"I didn't come from no damn monkey!" :rolleyes:

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One of those amazing things. There is an illogical religious minority which denies it. That is one of the scary things about religious zealots: One can present them with all the scientific data in the world and still they persist in ignorance. If a logical SCIENTIFIC theory comes along which refutes evolution, I will be all for looking into it. But there is an idiotic minority who insists that creationism should be taught in schools as a legitimate scientific theory, when it is clearly a religious one.

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Originally Posted by bad_roo

BRIGHAM YOUNG
Journal of Discourses

Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African Race? If the White man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.

Vol. 7, pg. 290-291

Cain slew his brother. . . and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin.

You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the "servant of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed.

That is some of the most disgusting shit I've ever read. Sorry if I've offended anybody but there it is.

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That really is repulsive. I do not know how anyone can justify that. I have met a number of mormons who are good people, but I have caucasion skin. If any of the mormons here would like to offer an explanation for this I am all ears. I am trying not to judge, I would just like to hear something which explains this to me, because right now it is very disturbing. I realize that many mormons do not take their religion to the point of extremism, and I would hope they are as repulsed as I am by that paragraph. As an atheist I do not follow any religion, it other sects of christianity have similar passages in their books then I condemn those books as well.