Leg extensions. Worth it or worthless

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

Intuitively, this makes sense. On the ground I think it's more complicated. It's hard to overstate how beastly squatting 2x BW for 6 reps really is. Unless you're a genetic outlier there's a level of commitment required to get there that probably doesn't directly translate to much better skiing compared to the guy who can do it for a double.

eta: If you go to the ExRx link in the second article EWG linked to (https://exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/SquatStandards) the "Elite" standards are ~2.7x BW. 2x BW for six reps probably means your 1RM is close to or above the "Elite" level.

I have video of AC squatting 250 at a BW of ~160. That's the "Elite" level for women, which is pretty cool.



Strength gains also come really fast at the novice level. Equivalently high levels of endurance and strength are both long-term commitments.

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FWIW the stronger you get the more nuerally adapted you are to higher end percentages and the difference between your 1 rep max and say 6 rep max becomes much smaller (percentage wise) than that of an intermediate of beginner. I disagree that 2x BW squats by 6 is "elite". far from it actually. Take a 180lb person, if you plug their 2.7bw max into a simple 5x5 program calculator, 360lbs x5 is one of the warmup sets. 420x5 is the workset for a 486 1-rep max.

Not to knock that high level of strength at all (6 reps of 2xBW is strong, no doubt), but saying that is elite strength is like saying being able to ski a black diamond trail in control means you are an elite skier. As for translating to skiing, in most sports, being able to have the strength to make up for moments of poor technique is always a benefit. And having the strength to leverage improved technique is obviously better.

I wouldnt consider someone who just got through their newbie gains period to have a "high level of strength". Maybe my perception of what constitutes high levels of strength vs what high levels of endurance is skewed? i think running a 10k in 45 minutes would constitute high levels of endurance for example.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

Not to knock that high level of strength at all, but thats like saying being able to ski a black diamond trail in control means you are an elite skier.

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I think you're way off here. While it may not be "elite" 2x BW for 6 is beastly AF by any measure. I can say with absolute certainty I'll never get there. If there's a single poster on this forum that can do/has done it I'll be surprised. Maybe XavierD, that guy has posted some pretty impressive lifts before.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

i think running a 10k in 45 minutes would constitute high levels of endurance for example.

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A 45-minute 10k is respectable but not "high level" by a long shot. You said it was possible to achieve high levels of endurance in "weeks."

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

I think you're way off here. I can't say exactly how 6RM translates to 1RM (and probably varies by individual), but 2x BW for 6 is beastly AF by any measure. I can say with absolute certainty I'll never get there. If there's a single poster on this forum that can do/has done it I'll be surprised. Maybe XavierD, that guy has posted some pretty impressive lifts before.



A 45-minute 10k is respectable but not "high level" by a long shot. You said it was possible to achieve high levels of endurance in "weeks."

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Use a general program calculator to figure out how 6RM translates to a 1RM. And then take into account that at greater multiples of BW an individual is able to hit reps at higher percentages than someone lifting at lower multiples of BW.

the second part is where our difference is- what you see as "high level" endurance and "high level" strength, vs where i see it. I have no doubt i could run a 45 min 10k in 8 weeks or less. I think that would be "advanced", certainly not elite.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

I have no doubt i could run a 45 min 10k in 8 weeks or less. I think that would be "advanced", certainly not elite.

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"Intermediate" for a 160 lb 35 y.o. male per https://runninglevel.com/

I think the definition of Elite matters here. An elite weightlifter will squat a hell of a lot more than an elite 10,000 meter runner.

I assume an elite skier is in the middle. My college kid is a fairly committed freeskier - big jumps, lots of vertical, etc. His 1 rep max is over 2x bw - not sure by how much. Seems kinda right for an elite freeskier, but that's just my perception.

I've run all of 50 miles in 2021 and I'm pretty sure I could go run a sub-45 10km this afternoon. I've also been lifting for years and a 2.7x BW squat is something I would never dream of. I don't do 2x even but mostly because I'm getting old and heavy squats don't meet my risk/reward threshold, I'm a lot happier in the ~1.6x range at high reps, I'm sure if I dropped some cardio and focused on lifting I'd get to 2x pretty quickly but I don't see the benefit. I also don't ski that fast or jump off of things so that might play in to it.

Regardless, pick up some heavy things a few times a week, and do some cardio that you enjoy a few times a week, consistently, and don't be fat, and you'll be in the top 1% of the population in terms of fitness pretty easily.

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Originally Posted by EWG

An elite weightlifter will squat a hell of a lot more than an elite 10,000 meter runner.

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Well, yeah, and I'm certainly not arguing that having a fast 10k time will make you a better skier. But, the idea that you could take a novice/beginner level person and train them to "high level" endurance in 8 weeks, or that a 45-min 10k is "high-level," is just silly and I had to push back on that.

Agreed that your kid is probably in the sweet spot. It would be super interesting to know what the FWT field's 1RMs are.

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Originally Posted by bean

Regardless, pick up some heavy things a few times a week, and do some cardio that you enjoy a few times a week, consistently, and don't be fat, and you'll be in the top 1% of the population in terms of fitness pretty easily.

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Gen pop is a terrifyingly low bar. In polls 25% of people say they get zero exercise, and another 25% say they get 0-30 minutes per week, which probably means most of those people actually get zero, and the ones that are actually >0 probably just walk around the block or something.

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

Gen pop is a terrifyingly low bar. In polls 25% of people say they get zero exercise, and another 25% say they get 0-30 minutes per week, which probably means most of those people actually get zero, and the ones that are actually >0 probably just walk around the block or something.

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It really is bad. This was several years ago, I can only imagine it's gotten worse since then.

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A surprising new study shows that obese U.S. men get less than four hours of vigorous exercise a year, while obese American women partake in only one hour annually.

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https://www.cbsnews.com/news/obese-w...-a-year-study/

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

It would be super interesting to know what the FWT field's 1RMs are.

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Yeah, it really would.

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Originally Posted by bean

I've run all of 50 miles in 2021 and I'm pretty sure I could go run a sub-45 10km this afternoon. I've also been lifting for years and a 2.7x BW squat is something I would never dream of.

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Bean, to be fair, it sounds like you do a fair bit (a lot?) of biking though, right? If you've got that endurance, it doesn't translate too badly to running. I was a mediocre rider on our cycling team in undergrad and could run a 12 minute two-mile run without much running at all. (Though I would still argue that a time like that is [I} not [/I] "high-level" endurance.

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

It would be super interesting to know what the FWT field's 1RMs are.

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It doesn't answer that intriguing statement, but MTI (Mountain Tactical Institute) - Rob Shaul's gym - does have "Strength Standards" based on what he/his athletes are able to perform as a benchmark. (Formatting is easier on the website - see link below)

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LIFT MEN WOMEN
Front Squat 1.25x BW 1.0x BW
Hinge Lift 1.75x BW 1.25xBW
Bench Press 1.25xBW .9xBW
Push Press 1.10x BW .7xBW
Hang Squat Clean 1.1x BW .9xBW

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I believe those are 1 rep maxes. More here and a lot more detail/explanation here. While I'm sure those are not ironclad, it seems like a useful training benchmark.

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Originally Posted by fool

Thoughts on the Mountain Tactical "30 MINUTES PER DAY DRYLAND SKI TRAINING PLAN" (https://mtntactical.com/shop/30-minu...aining-plan/)? I know this thread discussed Leg Blasters from MTI, etc., but I figure this 4 days/week, 4 week plan might be a good prep for ski season that wouldn't require too much thinking (and therefore not executing).

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Update, btw. I am starting on the 30min/day drylands program with a slow ramp up - the Quadzilla complex is intense! - in addition to ~5 days a week of running.

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Originally Posted by fool

Bean, to be fair, it sounds like you do a fair bit (a lot?) of biking though, right? If you've got that endurance, it doesn't translate too badly to running. I was a mediocre rider on our cycling team in undergrad and could run a 12 minute two-mile run without much running at all. (Though I would still argue that a time like that is [I} not [/I] "high-level" endurance.

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I do a little bike training though it’s almost all indoors these days, if it means anything my CTL is under 35. I also used to be a pretty serious runner so I’m probably not a fair comparison to most.

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Originally Posted by fool

It doesn't answer that intriguing statement, but MTI (Mountain Tactical Institute) - Rob Shaul's gym - does have "Strength Standards" based on what he/his athletes are able to perform as a benchmark. (Formatting is easier on the website - see link below)

I believe those are 1 rep maxes. More here and a lot more detail/explanation here. While I'm sure those are not ironclad, it seems like a useful training benchmark.

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Thanks for that. Relatively high numbers but totally achievable for most people. Interesting choice of lifts. Squat cleans really require bumpers and real coaching.

I do about 99% of my pull ups "grease the groove"-style at work. I hadn't gone for a max set in years but those MTI links inspired me to do one. Got 22, pretty OK with that.

A 6RM of 2xBW is strong if you’re not in strength sports or an actual competitive D1/Pro in Football/Rugby. It’s pretty well past the point of diminishing returns for most other athletes. You’ll be putting out a ton of time and energy getting there which could probably be better spent doing something else, like your actual sport. Remember the best exercise for making you a better skier is… skiing. I honestly doubt many if any of us here have the technical ability to get to the point where we can actually recruit the equivalent output while skiing. If your leg strength is holding your skiing back, sure chase that shit, but make sure the time and energy you spend squating and recovering isn’t getting in the way of you skiing or doing other more sport specific training. If you’re just lifting because it’s fun or to be strong as fuck knock yourself out.

That said, if it’s really not that impressive if you are in a strength sport, it’s a reasonably attainable goal for most folks with some sort of strength adaptations. A 45min 10k is maybe even more attainable for most folks. Doing both in the same 60 minutes sounds like a pretty fun goal though. I’m not an athlete. Kinda like the 5x500 mile/DL time and weight combo. Basically you have to be exceptionally moderate at both. I kinda like the 10k because it’s a nasty mid distance combo of raw endurance capacity and lactate push.

Leg extensions remain a valuable exercise for building size and strength in the quad while giving the back, hips, and ankles an break.

Made it to 4 full leg blasters Friday w full attention paid to the quality of split jumps. Still hoping to get to 10 sets by Thanksgiving.

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Originally Posted by XavierD

A 6RM of 2xBW is strong if you’re not in strength sports or an actual competitive D1/Pro in Football/Rugby. It’s pretty well past the point of diminishing returns for most other athletes. You’ll be putting out a ton of time and energy getting there which could probably be better spent doing something else, like your actual sport. Remember the best exercise for making you a better skier is… skiing. I honestly doubt many if any of us here have the technical ability to get to the point where we can actually recruit the equivalent output while skiing. If your leg strength is holding your skiing back, sure chase that shit, but make sure the time and energy you spend squating and recovering isn’t getting in the way of you skiing or doing other more sport specific training. If you’re just lifting because it’s fun or to be strong as fuck knock yourself out.

That said, if it’s really not that impressive if you are in a strength sport, it’s a reasonably attainable goal for most folks with some sort of strength adaptations. A 45min 10k is maybe even more attainable for most folks. Doing both in the same 60 minutes sounds like a pretty fun goal though. I’m not an athlete. Kinda like the 5x500 mile/DL time and weight combo. Basically you have to be exceptionally moderate at both. I kinda like the 10k because it’s a nasty mid distance combo of raw endurance capacity and lactate push.

Leg extensions remain a valuable exercise for building size and strength in the quad while giving the back, hips, and ankles an break.

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Leg extensions are hard on the knees.

Best way to do them :

Put a lighter weight, lift it with both legs, then lower it with one leg only. That's one rep.

This only works the eccentric.

Or lift with both legs, lower with one, but only 30 degrees from horizontal.

This avoids the extreme stress you put on the knee when lifting from a 90 degree knee angle.

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Originally Posted by rod9301

Leg extensions are hard on the knees.

Best way to do them :

Put a lighter weight, lift it with both legs, then lower it with one leg only. That's one rep.

This only works the eccentric.

Or lift with both legs, lower with one, but only 30 degrees from horizontal.

This avoids the extreme stress you put on the knee when lifting from a 90 degree knee angle.

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Umm... this view of any exercise as a binary good/bad is quite dated & you would be well served consulting a S&C professional for contemporary guidance.



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Maybe it's just me.

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Originally Posted by rod9301

Leg extensions are hard on the knees.

Best way to do them :

Put a lighter weight, lift it with both legs, then lower it with one leg only. That's one rep.

This only works the eccentric.

Or lift with both legs, lower with one, but only 30 degrees from horizontal.

This avoids the extreme stress you put on the knee when lifting from a 90 degree knee angle.

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Most machines allow you to change the starting position of your legs. I start at much more than 90 degrees.

And I find they don't hurt my knees. In fact, the reason I do them is because I have a bad knee and kneecap pain and I'm trying to focus hard in strengthening the medial head of my quads to help with that. For that goal, only the last bit of the extension to 180 degrees is useful so starting at more than 90 is good.

Double post... sorry.

Triple post... ugh.

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Originally Posted by Shorty_J

Triple post... ugh.

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How many reps are you going for?

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Originally Posted by old goat

How many reps are you going for?

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That was fairly well done. You get a cookie from the good job jar.

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Originally Posted by old goat

How many reps are you going for?

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Looks like 3 sets of a 1 rep max. He only got the rep on the first set though.


Ive been hitting hamstrings using RDLs for the past couple months and am now acceptable strong in them. But thats just hitting them using a hip hinge movement pattern with the knee joint static... need to also hit them using knee flexion but its gonna be kinda difficult to do just using a squat rack. thinking about jerryrigging a nordic curl setup using spotter arms, and an old blanket+voile straps for padding on it. Might be able to figure out somekind of banded setup to make laying hamstring curls happen too.

Having a couple anchors for bands make noridc curls 10x better. Can go full range of motion, which is a huge bonus imo, and progress dropping band tension.

Nordic curls are awesome.

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