I-70 is F@&KED

Amazing how anti infrastructure Americans are these days. Imagine if back in the day they'd decided building the interstate system was just too expensive.

A train down the I-70 corridor should be something the Feds and Coloradans do together. With a little carbon tax money the thing could be built. 30 billion dollars if that is the cost reinvested in Colorado. Dividends both now and later.

But whatever. We can't get a train built across Iowa for the same reasons even with the Feds coming in and offering to pay most of the tab.

As people have already mentioned, the issues come from a lack of use. Traffic on I70 is bad for like a grand total of 8 hours a week.

I don't think Americans are anti-infrastructure, but they are against massive govt spending to alleviate traffic for a bunch of better off than most skiers.

Same with a train across Iowa, who the fuck wants or needs such a thing really.

Try 8 hours just on Sunday afternoon. CDOT now posts alerts from 11AM-7PM.
Eventually you won’t be able to “leave early enough/stay late enough”.
Oh well. Still think buses and more lanes are your solution, but unfortunately, it isn’t happening unless you get federal $$$.
Good thing it’s predictable patterns, so if you play your cards right, it’s a manageable situation.

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Originally Posted by AdironRider

As people have already mentioned, the issues come from a lack of use. Traffic on I70 is bad for like a grand total of 8 hours a week.

I don't think Americans are anti-infrastructure, but they are against massive govt spending to alleviate traffic for a bunch of better off than most skiers.

Same with a train across Iowa, who the fuck wants or needs such a thing really.

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I do along with a lot of other people including cities that would be served by it. I-80 is getting to be a huge dangerous clusterfuck - it gets more crowded every year. The idea would be to have a train connecting Chicago, Quad Cities, Iowa City, Des Moines, and Omaha. Lots of people would use it but our Republican Governor killed it. He is opposing a gas tax increase as well even though already failing roads and bridges are disintegrating under the weight of an oppressive seemingly endless arctic blast that is sledge hammering our roads into potholed junkshows.

This isn't about Iowa or my opinion though so you have that right. Until people decide it is worth it we won't have these slick trains or smooth functioning roads that the rest of the first world enjoys. I voluntarily go to JH and stand in hour long queues at the tram so what do I know.

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Originally Posted by uglymoney

Amazing how anti infrastructure Americans are these days. Imagine if back in the day they'd decided building the interstate system was just too expensive.

A train down the I-70 corridor should be something the Feds and Coloradans do together. With a little carbon tax money the thing could be built. 30 billion dollars if that is the cost reinvested in Colorado. Dividends both now and later.

But whatever. We can't get a train built across Iowa for the same reasons even with the Feds coming in and offering to pay most of the tab.

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No, the problem is not that American's are anti infrastructure, it is that they are realistic.

As already discussed, even if the train was built, it would most likely be poorly used, tickets prohibitively expensive, would require numerous transfers, and wouldn't even take people to mountains like Breck, Keystone, A-basin.

RTD can't even figure out how they are going to scrape together the 1.6 Billion needed to build a line from Denver to Boulder as part of Fasttracks. How are they going to get 30 billion to build a train that will be poorly used?

as mentioned above, look at RTD and the mess they have created down in the metro area

RTD said they could build a train system for X amount of dollars, they are short billions and it will take them 3 times as long to create the train system than they originally said. Why would a train in the mountains be any different. You will have the same contractors and the same board members overseeing the train system. Thats how gov't works. Look up how many people working for RTD make over 200k a year, it's upsetting

How does touron family front ranger get from the the silverthorne station to keystoned? They don't the summit stage which is free, is falling apart and hundreds of thousands in the hole with zero financing to help upgrade the service, at the rate they are going it will no longer exist in five years. Where is the millions to fix that simple service? Rider usage is a very low % of the visitor/local population of summit county.

I 70 was built using 1950's engineering, the highway needs to be updated to the 21st century, 3rd climbing lanes on georgtown hill, vail pass, exit entrance ramps need to be extended, try entering the highway on the west side of frisco, the bridge at kermits needs to be redone along with the us6 entrance ramp, a 3rd bore needs to be done at the tunnel, 6 lanes from empire exit to the new twin tunnels, simple updates need to happen and they are not

I can leave by 830 on a sunday morning and do 80+ mph to denver. I still don't know what the problem is.

Billions of dollars for road improvements for traffic flow within a massive drainage basin seems a bit shortsighted. We are looking at $2 billion to recover from the September 2013 floods. Think about it. You want Clear Creek further encroached upon? You want to take money in this state away from future disaster funding so that traffic jams aren't as large?

Yes Colorado rarely has disasters and we get complacent. 2013 had massive floods and wildfires. Most scientists agree that the probability of those type of disasters is increasing.

Personally i don't want my taxes going to I70 improvements of the magnitude discussed. Colorado has more important needs and the federal government needs $$ to deal with the increasing disasters throughout the US.

Sorry to burst the comfortable bubble.

But if done correctly, the investment would increase income generated by tourism dollars which could increase our disaster funding.

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Originally Posted by shredgnar

But if done correctly, the investment would increase income generated by tourism dollars which could increase our disaster funding.

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Not at our tax rates. The increase would be marginal and would probably only suit to offset the increase in maintenance. My Vail resort stock would increase but is that what is important?

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Originally Posted by WTF is dat

RTD can't even figure out how they are going to scrape together the 1.6 Billion needed to build a line from Denver to Boulder as part of Fasttracks. How are they going to get 30 billion to build a train that will be poorly used?

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the TRUTH, sad but true...

As some have pointed out a train to the ski areas would face a significant logistical obstacle, the train could not go to 7 ski resorts. It would go to one major transfer center and from there you would have to take a bus to your resort of choice. Anyone who has taken a shuttle from parking to the lifts understands what a clusterf$ck this would be. There is no way this transfer could be convenient and hard to imagine it would be faster than driving (with low to moderate traffic).

An immediate and low/zero cost measure would be stagger opening and closing times of the resorts from Feb 1ish till closing. Having every resort on exactly the same operating hours is piss poor. There are other benefits to staggered times as well, some may have a preference for later/earlier opening/closing times and more spread out demand for hospitals, restaurants, etc throughout the day.

I think the train money would be more wisely spent on a 3rd lane that is solely for buses and 3+ or 4+ passenger vehicles. Buses could leave from front range area park and rides that serve commuters on weekdays and go directly to the lift at your resort of choice. Buses would be outfitted specifically for winter driving.

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Originally Posted by afox

An immediate and low/zero cost measure would be stagger opening and closing times of the resorts from Feb 1ish till closing. Having every resort on exactly the same operating hours is piss poor. There are other benefits to staggered times as well, some may have a preference for later/earlier opening/closing times and more spread out demand for hospitals, restaurants, etc throughout the day.

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Are you from Denver and think the sun really does rise and set at your command?

A lot of people here haven't a clue about transportation planning.. not that I expected that they do, but the ability to opine is rich.

Look at transfers at a major travel hub like... oh, any major subway stop in NYC or grand central terminal.. and tell me that a shuttle system at a main transfer point won't work.

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Originally Posted by grskier

A lot of people here haven't a clue about transportation planning.. not that I expected that they do, but the ability to opine is rich.

Look at transfers at a major travel hub like... oh, any major subway stop in NYC or grand central terminal.. and tell me that a shuttle system at a main transfer point won't work.

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But that's all underground infrastructure of pedestrians and trains, removed from the traffic gridlock above and it's not thousands of skiers/riders lugging around equipment. It's bad enough just walking around the base area with gapers galore, almost nailing you with their skis.

It's also not only a winter problem. How can the average family of 4 drive from a Denver suburb to Union Station with mtn bikes, backpacks and overnight bags, board a train to Frisco, get off, take a bus to Breck then find a way to a hotel? Totally unrealistic IMO

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Originally Posted by grskier

A lot of people here haven't a clue about transportation planning.. not that I expected that they do, but the ability to opine is rich.

Look at transfers at a major travel hub like... oh, any major subway stop in NYC or grand central terminal.. and tell me that a shuttle system at a main transfer point won't work.

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There are ways in which the comparison to NYC is valid, and there are ways it's apples to pineapples.

could it work in a theoretical vacuum? of course, look at Europe. If we could wipe the slate clean and build from scratch, or had it developed organically but in a non-car focused society, yes, it could work. Could it work on a practical level, on the ground, starting in Summit County as it exists now? I don't see it. The infrastructure needs are too great, the plan would not address demands for half the year, and the incentives to bear the insane costs of putting such a system in place just aren't there.

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Originally Posted by uglymoney

When it comes time to restart a FWD car with snows > than a 4wd with crap tires.

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Worth repeating!

It just amazes me how so many people totally neglect their tires. It's all about the tires.

Why can't we just have a state law that requires one of the following to drive mountain roads in the winter:

1. AWD or 4WD with snow tires or all season tires. Tires must have sufficient tread depth (no lower than 5/32)
2. FWD with snow tires of sufficient tread depth

Then if you are involved in an accident, stuck on the side of the road, or are spinning out going uphill, and you don't have one of the two noted above then you get a hefty fine, say, I don't know, $3000.

On top of that, I'm a fan of yearly vehicle state inspections.

And then, on top of that, we could require a snow driving test which is required to be renewed every three years. Not sure the logistics of that because you would need to have this course at a location which would have snow on the course pretty much the whole winter.

Feb 1 sunrise 7:08 sunset 5:19:
http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/boulder...er.sunset.html

Why couldn't a resort be open 7:30-2:30, 8:00-3:00, 8:30-3:30, 9:00-4:00, or 9:30-4:30 on Feb 1?
There is much as much morning/afternoon buffer between open times and dark with these times on Feb 1 as there is near Dec 21. This wouldn't solve the problem but it would help and it doesn't cost anything.

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Originally Posted by Below Zero

Worth repeating!
It just amazes me how so many people totally neglect their tires. It's all about the tires.

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Of course. But the problem on I-70 usually has much more to do with the volume of traffic than the accidents. The tunnel metering has nothing to do with accidents.

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Originally Posted by grskier

A lot of people here haven't a clue about transportation planning.. not that I expected that they do, but the ability to opine is rich.

Look at transfers at a major travel hub like... oh, any major subway stop in NYC or grand central terminal.. and tell me that a shuttle system at a main transfer point won't work.

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Seriously, you're comparing commuters in NYC with skiers in CO? Try putting those new yorkers in ski boots and making them carry their ski gear for a commute from PA to Manhattan. Think that would work?

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Originally Posted by grskier

A lot of people here haven't a clue about transportation planning.. not that I expected that they do, but the ability to opine is rich.

Look at transfers at a major travel hub like... oh, any major subway stop in NYC or grand central terminal.. and tell me that a shuttle system at a main transfer point won't work.

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Quoted for truth. Better yet, check out the train stops in Japan and Europe going to major ski destinations... they get around just fine with their ski gear.

^^Of course I know volume is a concern, but there have been plenty of times where the traffic is backed up due to accidents. I mean just this past Friday driving east bound towards the tunnel around 5:30pm; it was freaking shitshow. Cars spun out everywhere, tow trucks hooking up mini vans in the left lane, cars just stopped in the middle of the road. It was a freaking beater slalom course.

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Originally Posted by afox

Feb 1 sunrise 7:08 sunset 5:19:
http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/boulder...er.sunset.html

Why couldn't a resort be open 7:30-2:30, 8:00-3:00, 8:30-3:30, 9:00-4:00, or 9:30-4:30 on Feb 1?
There is much as much morning/afternoon buffer between open times and dark with these times on Feb 1 as there is near Dec 21. This wouldn't solve the problem but it would help and it doesn't cost anything.

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Great idea! All resorts should completely change their operating procedures and economics for your convenience! Go sign-up for patrol and offer to do routes at 5:30 am in the dark!

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Originally Posted by afox

Of course. But the problem on I-70 usually has much more to do with the volume of traffic than the accidents. The tunnel metering has nothing to do with accidents.

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Actually, in the winter the real clusters come when the volume is high AND the "accidents" occur. Nobody cares if a trip up I-70 takes 2-3 hours when it would be 1 1/2 under low traffic conditions, and when it's purely high volume, that's the worst case scenario. People care about when the trip takes 5 hours, or 8 hours, or the road gets closed and you can't get there from here. And that pretty much only happens in bad weather, when many cars and trucks are ill-equipped to be driving in those conditions.

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Originally Posted by The SnowShow

But that's all underground infrastructure of pedestrians and trains, removed from the traffic gridlock above and it's not thousands of skiers/riders lugging around equipment. It's bad enough just walking around the base area with gapers galore, almost nailing you with their skis.

It's also not only a winter problem. How can the average family of 4 drive from a Denver suburb to Union Station with mtn bikes, backpacks and overnight bags, board a train to Frisco, get off, take a bus to Breck then find a way to a hotel? Totally unrealistic IMO

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Meh, don't worry about above/below ground... I'm talking #s of people here. You're making up rules in your head you don't need to. The town of Breckenridge, the hotel, the ski area are all making decent coin off of this John Doe going to the mountains a few times a year... Public/Private partnership would be needed.

Union Station doesn't need to be the hub either... Imagine some sort of lot and loading in Lakewood or Golden. Luggage space is just that, space on the train.

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Originally Posted by Danno

There are ways in which the comparison to NYC is valid, and there are ways it's apples to pineapples.

could it work in a theoretical vacuum? of course, look at Europe. If we could wipe the slate clean and build from scratch, or had it developed organically but in a non-car focused society, yes, it could work. Could it work on a practical level, on the ground, starting in Summit County as it exists now? I don't see it. The infrastructure needs are too great, the plan would not address demands for half the year, and the incentives to bear the insane costs of putting such a system in place just aren't there.

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The car focused piece is the hardest.. I live in a valley where traffic numbers across the castle creek bridge remain relatively constant for 20 years because they WON'T widen the road, and promote bus commuting. After watching a bus blast past you a few times you get the idea.

What are the demands for half the year? You mean the half that the current infrastructure capacity is more than enough?

A lot of the businesses are looking for GROWTH.... how are they going to pack more of you front rangers into Breck if you can't get there....

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Originally Posted by afox

Feb 1 sunrise 7:08 sunset 5:19:
http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/boulder...er.sunset.html

Why couldn't a resort be open 7:30-2:30, 8:00-3:00, 8:30-3:30, 9:00-4:00, or 9:30-4:30 on Feb 1?
There is much as much morning/afternoon buffer between open times and dark with these times on Feb 1 as there is near Dec 21. This wouldn't solve the problem but it would help and it doesn't cost anything.

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You can't possibly be this self centered, right?