At least 3 dead, 15 injured after B.C. avalanche

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Originally Posted by Moose Pit

One thing to consider is that the people writing about this have absolutely no idea about what they are writing about, they will not be critical, and, if you read the CBC news frequently, can barely string a story together.


This thread needs to just die.
The summary is...

Better than 1000 sledders knew shit was dodgy and stayed home.

Two guys were dumb and unlucky and died.

The once that went out, and sat at the bottom of a bowl to watch invincible gnar core dudes rip are: incredibly lucky to be alive, stupid, and should be subject to scorn and criticism, because: they are/were ignorant or stupid, endangered others (SAR), and still don't get it.

The out cry to educate a group (not all but a large sub portion of the sledding pop) of people that are willing to spend a fuck load of cash but not put in the time to learn and be attentive to conditions and ride with personal responsibility, is ridiculous. There is a large portion of this population that will buy gear (avi packs at 1K a shot) to save their shit rather that put in the time to learn and adhere to a responsible b/c user paradigm.

You can argue and discuss all sorts of bull shit angles and litigation and responsibility but it does not matter, stupid people do stupid shit and some times they die.

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Amen brother.

Maybe I'm off, but I don't know anyone who has no avy education but has spent the money on a pack. Maybe that will be a new trend though, spend $1k on a pack... so you don't have to get avy education.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:(cause hey, that PACK is what will save you right?)

Other than that.... gotta agree 100%

Another thing to mention that I doubt a lot of you can see. On a sled it is a bit deceiving to talk about slides compared to skis/ board. Now, I know this is going to sound callous or naive to many, but on a sled you can play with slides in a way that you just can't without a motor. You can hit a slope & set off a decent size slide & ride away rather consistently (hopefully, knowing that it's going to come down & you're planning your climb/ decent based on that) My only point here is it's very easy to get lulled into complacency when it comes to smaller slides. (being on the mountain, not sitting at the bottom)

Backcountryislife, you need an avi course badly - or several - b4 you get hurt or killed or hurt or kill somebody else. Best of luck man. Hopefully you are nowhere near my zone buddy.

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Originally Posted by Moose Pit

One thing to consider is that the people writing about this have absolutely no idea about what they are writing about, they will not be critical, and, if you read the CBC news frequently, can barely string a story together.


This thread needs to just die.
The summary is...

Better than 1000 sledders knew shit was dodgy and stayed home.

Two guys were dumb and unlucky and died.

The once that went out, and sat at the bottom of a bowl to watch invincible gnar core dudes rip are: incredibly lucky to be alive, stupid, and should be subject to scorn and criticism, because: they are/were ignorant or stupid, endangered others (SAR), and still don't get it.

The out cry to educate a group (not all but a large sub portion of the sledding pop) of people that are willing to spend a fuck load of cash but not put in the time to learn and be attentive to conditions and ride with personal responsibility, is ridiculous. There is a large portion of this population that will buy gear (avi packs at 1K a shot) to save their shit rather that put in the time to learn and adhere to a responsible b/c user paradigm.

You can argue and discuss all sorts of bull shit angles and litigation and responsibility but it does not matter, stupid people do stupid shit and some times they die.

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A couple of more things to consider. 2 of the guys either in harms way or doing nothing while watching those in harms way actually teach these guys avalanche courses. That says a lot about the mindset of this particular crowd but still excludes those that stayed home.

The idea of treating these types as hapless victims and downright heroes does not seem to work. Witness just over a year ago a short distance away as the crow flies. A mass tragedy and the survivors were treated very gently. That apparently did not produce a message that sunk in.

The group in that bowl were fucking idiots and that's the bottom line and that should be made clear to them. Unfortunately they also represent a significant portion of the sledding community. Maybe not the majority but still significant and two of them there have been responsible for training another portion of the community. One would think those two would represent the safest of the bunch, yet there they were.

Sledders are not being painted as moronic risk takers by the media. Many sledders themselves are repeatedly painting THEMSELVES as moronic risk takers and the media is picking up on it. That doesn't mean all sledders but the ones that resent it should focus their anger on the fucking morons causing the problem not the media that is reporting the repercussions of some sledders actions.

aye L7 - quite a few sledders have articulated how PO'ed they are that even though they were safe now they're getting lumped into the same group as the sledders who parked at Turbo

To be fair - that's like painting all backcountry skiers like the mindless twat that pow11 pulled out of the Circle Lk - Decker area

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Originally Posted by ICE

Backcountryislife, you need an avi course badly - or several - b4 you get hurt or killed or hurt or kill somebody else. Best of luck man. Hopefully you are nowhere near my zone buddy.

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glad we had this talk pal.

Been touring, hiking, or splitting for nearly 20 years, been taking at absolute minimum one class per year, most years more than that to stay fresh & not get complacent as I mentioned in that post.

I stated a fact that I knew people like you wouldn't understand, but it's something that is notably different between sleds & skis. I'm also stating what is a PERCEPTION & how sledders CAN/COULD get complacent.

What is a "test" slope to you & what is a test slope to me are very different.

And the idea that anyone would do a cut while you or anyone nearby is around is absolutely moronic.

The biggest difference between a sled & skis is the fact that we cover nearly 50 times the ground that a skier will in a day, this allows one the ability to isolate particular aspects that have greater risk much quicker than on skis (obviously we also check CAIC or whatever local avalanche center as well) so we can find a 100 foot slope of similar aspect, cut it, drop it & see what slid & learn from this.

Does every sledder do this... of course not, but many of us that are students of the snow see the sled as a better way to understand it.


just for an example, this is a test slope that we use because it tends to go. There are a number of similar aspect slopes nearby that this test is indicative of. I wouldn't likely cut this type of thing on skis as it's a terrain trap & may be hard to get away from. The reality on a snowmachine though is that this is a very small slide that is very easy & safe to get out of & will offer up more information than just highmarking till something slides on you.

I'm not talking about playing with class II or III slides here, I'm just trying to give an example of the differences.

http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos...1_249690_n.jpg


Btw, take a look at the front page that we see very time we log into our local sled site, the conditions aren't exactly something that is far from our mind around here.
www.sledmods.com

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Originally Posted by Shaggy

Is it just the sensationalism factor (maybe because of Michael Trudeau), or do you think someone within CBC has taken it upon themselves to turn public opinion in order to get more regulation enacted?

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Michel Trudeau was so long ago he was probably wearing leather tele boots and Canadians don't have it together enough for OR are they really big on conspiracy theories ...we leave them to our American cousins

good discussion happen here. L7 too funny about the zac's guy really.
BCisL nice example, i was thinking about this just the other day... the whole concept of slope testing and terrain management. its totally different between sledding and skiing.
d

Qoute>>>"the whole concept of slope testing and terrain management"

"Terrain management"? ?? That slope should have had at least a three pounder lobbed onto it before it was pilaged like that. Tisk tisk.

Quote>>>"Been touring, hiking, or splitting for nearly 20 years, been taking at absolute minimum one class per year, most years more than that to stay fresh & not get complacent as I mentioned in that post."

So, like that makes you avi XX or -20 or something??? Avi I, II, III??? :rolleyes:

200 people in an obvious avi runout in avi conditions without control work and without at least a sign-in or check-in??? how the fuck do you keep track of all those sheeple knuckleheads?

Another Revelstoke area slide, another dead sledder:

http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/l...ritishColumbia

read on snow & mud that guys were seeing other stuff move on other slopes. So it really makes you wonder what is going thru their mind. "Hey that just slid, lets go park underneath a hill that is twice the size and watch some boyz see how big their balls are"

Another thing I was thinking of was culture related. When you look at the fact that the guys who were giving the avi courses were right there combined with the fact that (to my knowledge) there are no Mountain Guides who guide sledders it somewhat makes sence that these guys have the attitude that they do.

All the BC skiers I know have had Avi training with guides and usually very good ones. Mine was with Jim Bay and I can't say enough good things about him. He definitely doesn't instill a "let's go ski everything attitude" - more of a "there are old guides and there are bold guides, but no old AND bold guides" approach.

Perhaps the ACMG should look into doing something for this market - apparently they have the money to spend on professional guides??

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Originally Posted by Moose Pit

You can argue and discuss all sorts of bull shit angles and litigation and responsibility but it does not matter, stupid people do stupid shit and some times they die.

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Can't argue with this... well said.

1 dead & 12 missing in class 4 slide west of Revy this aft
apparently two seperate groups were sitting at the bottom of the slide path
unreal.

My neck was still sore from the head shaking I did after the slide last week.
Nope, doesn't look like the message is getting through....

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Originally Posted by Eldo

#1 - What the RCMP actually said was they are looking into whether any charges could be laid, while hinting strongly that it would be hard to find any criminal wrongdoing without intent.

#2 - Stop listening to CBC, it rots the brain.

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Sorry Eldo, listening to CBC does not rot the brain, television does.

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Originally Posted by gorgeskier

Perhaps the ACMG should look into doing something for this market - apparently they have the money to spend on professional guides??

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I know a couple of different groups, my boss and some other guys I work included, that go a couple of weekends a year with guides to get a good tour and some extra avy education while they're out.

The guys I know certainly seem to get it and any that I've talked with since the first slide know how many bad decisions had to be made for this happen. I wouldn't hestitate to go out with any of them, but I know a few skiers and boarders that I wouldn't want to be around in sketchy conditions.

Seems like sledding is more of a group activity for a lot of riders, though. When I've gone out it's only been a couple of us using them for ski access, but most of the pure sledders I know go as groups and/or families. To me, it seems like the biggest difference is the number of people caught when someone makes a bad decision. You just don't tend to see 200 skiers gathered in a group, outside of a resort, or 16-20 buddies heading out on a tour.

I feel that it's the few bad apples thing going on, just with high consequences leading to big publicity.

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Originally Posted by af403

1 dead & 12 missing in class 4 slide west of Revy this aft
apparently two seperate groups were sitting at the bottom of the slide path
unreal.

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unfuckingbelievable.

ok, I give up. Maybe I just happen to know the 17 intelligent sledders out there. The rest just MUST be morons.:confused:

If people can't figure this shit out even after one of the most highly publicized avy incidents in recent history, there's just no hope for some of them. I sure as hell wish people could figure this stuff out, it's not THAT complicated. Hell, two rules could save a majority of these lives... #1 one person on the hill at a time, and #2 ONE PERSON ON THE HILL AT A TIME!!!!!!



Oh, and ICE... Yeah bud, it's just like atari, I'm a level 19 now dipshit. So you figure you know all there is to know? You figure that after a class or two you're set? How bout this, you stay away from MY terrain because people like you who don't understand that this is a CONSTANT learning curve don't belong in the BC. It's not about being able to swing around the fact that you're a level 3, but haven't had a refresher in 10 years. Snow science changes constantly, even some of the basic assumptions made by the best in the field. If you're not keeping educated on a consistent basis, #1 you lose your edge & tend to forget little things that could make the difference between life & death, & #2 you're not being exposed to new ideas from outside your group. It's very easy to get into a rut in the way you go about your day, every class I take I'm reminded of something I had forgotten, or I get some new little idea that I hadn't thought to implement in the past, even the simple classes.

Headline in todays paper regarding latest dead sledder. 'Dead sledder not a hot dogger' and went on to say below 'he practised avalanche recovery'. Again not saying all sledders nor even the majority BUT a significant group or subset seem to see avalanche training as recovery response. Yea that's great but the more important message of course is avoiding recovery response. The media seems willing to allow the public to buy into overselling of recovery.

One of the problems with a lot of the sled community up here is they seem to keep letting the morons speak for them. The head of the BC sledders association said nothing to instill confidence or faith in intelligence of the group he spoke on behalf of. Again I know there are lots of smart and knowledgeable sledders out there but apparently they aren't yelling loud enough to make it to spokesman positions or even get interviews. Let alone yelling loud enough to get a helpful message across.

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Originally Posted by L7

Headline in todays paper regarding latest dead sledder. 'Dead sledder not a hot dogger' and went on to say below 'he practised avalanche recovery'. Again not saying all sledders nor even the majority BUT a significant group or subset seem to see avalanche training as recovery response. Yea that's great but the more important message of course is avoiding recovery response. The media seems willing to allow the public to buy into overselling of recovery.

One of the problems with a lot of the sled community up here is they seem to keep letting the morons speak for them. The head of the BC sledders association said nothing to instill confidence or faith in intelligence of the group he spoke on behalf of. Again I know there are lots of smart and knowledgeable sledders out there but apparently they aren't yelling loud enough to make it to spokesman positions or even get interviews. Let alone yelling loud enough to get a helpful message across.

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I see what you mean about people thinking that they'll just dig out, that does seem to be the idea with some folks. The part I don't get is that if you've EVER had any education, one of the first things they mention is how likely you are to die from trauma, and the time frames required to excavate a person from, say, 6 foot deep, etc. I just don't understand how anyone with any education AT ALL can think that the odds are acceptable to be in such a high risk area & riding the way that many of these guys are.
I also will never understand how someone that has even a clue ends up in a multiple burial situation. Hearing this crap just makes me want to scream:cussing:!!!!!! (and then there's the heli skiers that felt the need to prove that they can make poor decisions as well, sad)

It seems that it's not just the redneck sledders that are dying in the Canadian Rockies... CMH guides with 35 years of combined experience are killing their clients...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1507219/

As expected...

No charges in fatal B.C. avalanche
By KATIE SCHNEIDER, CALGARY SUN
Last Updated: April 29, 2010 2:21pm

Mounties say no criminal charges will be laid in relation to a deadly avalanche that killed two Alberta snowmobilers near Revelstoke last month.

RCMP have completed their investigation into the slide on March 13 that killed Shay Snortland, 33, of Lacombe, and Kurtis Reynolds, 33, of Strathmore, during the Big Iron Shootout.

The RCMP said the loosely organized event did not include high marking and was limited to a drag race type of format on a flat part of the valley to avoid the high avalanche risk areas.

Once the drag racing event ended a large group of people chose to ignore avalanche warnings and went to nearby Turbo Bowl to participate or watch snowmobilers high mark.

At that time the avalanche was triggered, swallowing up nearly 200 people and killing Snortland and Reynolds.

The RCMP said there is no evidence to support charges against any people involved.

http://www.kmcmag.com/wp-content/upl...ck_KMCW011.pdf

that was a good read.

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Originally Posted by powdork

that was a good read.

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Indeed, more should read this. Thanks LeeLau

Much better insight on a challenging problem than we have seen before. Thanks Lee.