The Official Salomon S/Lab SHIFT MNC Thread -AMA

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Originally Posted by GoldenBC

Californiagrown, if you’re not touring much, you should not be on the shift if you’re skiing hard. This is exactly what CAST is for.

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Did you not hear me? I said when the goddamn pivoty heel piece wont stay in the right goddamn position i start freaking out and flailing around while screetching just like an orangutan haha. I tried FKS180s for 1.5 years and seriously was so annoyed by the fidgitiness of the step-in that i swore to never go back. Personal problem, i know. CAST used to make a version for STH bindings, right? Bummer they don't anymore. That would be the right solution for me i think.

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Originally Posted by GoldenBC

I don’t know if you freeride much but sitting back on your heels and pointing it straight through pow should not release any binding set up for doing what he’s doing. Yes, maybe with a din of 7, but not 11/12. Catching an inside edge? I didn’t see it, he was going straight. The fact is, the binding isn’t eleastic enough to be ridden like this. In fact, many people complain about all Salomon’s releasing too easy like this, unless their din is cranked........

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Yes, I can see he was going straight but watching it in slo-mo it looks like his weight is back and over his left tail and his right ski moved outwards and then caught up and got dragged back (it's happened to me a number of times). And he'd gone a couple of metres sitting back with no "forward lurch" or rebound when the ski popped (whilst still sitting back) so I find it hard to see it as a heel release.

Your second Instagram link isn't working so it'd be great if you could re-post it thanks.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

Did you not hear me? I said when the goddamn pivoty heel piece wont stay in the right goddamn position i start freaking out and flailing around while screetching just like an orangutan haha. I tried FKS180s for 1.5 years and seriously was so annoyed by the fidgitiness of the step-in that i swore to never go back. Personal problem, i know. CAST used to make a version for STH bindings, right? Bummer they don't anymore. That would be the right solution for me i think.

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Haha. I did hear you and I know they are a touch fiddly but I’m ignoring that comment. If someone can operate shifts and has the physical capacity to ski hard enough to be having this conversation, it’s the equivalent to saying you don’t want Cast because they are the wrong colour. Your solution is here already.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CESwZUQD...=14zlw3re9uvnv

spyderjon

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Originally Posted by GoldenBC

https://www.instagram.com/p/CESwZUQD...=14zlw3re9uvnv

spyderjon

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GoldenBC, yep, gotta agree on that one. Nice smooth style and he'd just started to scrub off a bit of speed but nothing overly aggressive etc.

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Originally Posted by GoldenBC

Here is another shot of the heel releasing when you don’t want it too. It’s a great binding, but it’s not a replacement for an alpine binding for hard skiers.

http://https://www.instagram.com/p/C...d=pyuihn46ghf1

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I knew that Shifts weren’t up for FWT competition level skiing, I just figured they’d be fine for smooth, technical, skis on the snow, hardly ever fall, 50 plus powder skiing. I’m not sure they are.

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Originally Posted by kootenayskier

........I just figured they’d be fine for smooth, technical, skis on the snow, hardly ever fall, 50 plus powder skiing. I’m not sure they are.

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I've sold hundreds of them and a good proportion of them are to that market (inc myself with two sets) and they've been perfect with no issues. There's probably only a few people in Amer that know how many they've actually sold worldwide (for example, my Sallie guy only knows the UK sales) but considering that the vast majority of shops have sold more Shifts than all of their other bindings sales combined for the last three seasons then the numbers have to be pretty huge and the percentage of those with (non set-up) issues will be minute.

But the fact that the factory instruction sheet and Tech Manual info is still poor/wrong is a major fail on Amers part.

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Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive

Seems like brakes coming down while touring can sometimes be a warranty issue, but most of the time it's just user error.

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No, it’s a legit problem with the product. End of story.

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Originally Posted by GoldenBC

https://www.instagram.com/p/CESwZUQD...=14zlw3re9uvnv

spyderjon

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I had a similar prerelease this week. 7ish inches of untracked fresh, hauling out of of trees and went to scrub speed on top of a rollover before some small pillows. Suddenly I'm down a ski, then two, as I tomahawk to the bottom. It was soft and I was unharmed, but spooked to say the least. I run Shifts at 12 and typically run 13 on my STH2s and Pivots.

I've sold, and set up countless shifts this season. It is truly the binding of choice for the vast majority of people buying set ups right now. I really appreciate the info here on how to set these things up properly. I've been trying my best to not be that ski shop that sets these things up like garbage and gets someone hurt. I had a few shifts come back into the shop that were set up last year by a ski tech who didn't know any better and trying to re-inspire confidence in a customer is tough.

All that said, I'm buying CAST next year. I bought the shift thinking I could use it on my daily driver inbounds, sidecountry, and as a travel touring ski, but the finickiness of the uphill mode and the lack of confidence skiing it hard has me choosing my old daily driver with pivots 9 out of 10 days.

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Originally Posted by GoldenBC

Here is another shot of the heel releasing when you don’t want it too. It’s a great binding, but it’s not a replacement for an alpine binding for hard skiers.

http://https://www.instagram.com/p/C...d=pyuihn46ghf1

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Outside ski bouncing along, approaching perpendicular to the direction of travel, with the weight on the inside ski (and back)? I may not have timing quite right, but it looks like that ski stayed on through a couple of bounces before escaping.

I'd call that pilot error. Yes, a high-elasticity binding will mitigate that, but expecting a mostly unweighted ski to stay on while it bounces, decambers, and then flexes past unloaded is some serious optimism.

IMO, the shift probably isn't the most friendly binding for harsh skiing; I think the Pivot probably still takes that crown. But it seems to work just fine for aggressive skiing until you expect mor.e elasticity than is available.

Sent from my SM-G892A using TGR Forums mobile app

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Originally Posted by Spyderjon

I've sold hundreds of them and a good proportion of them are to that market (inc myself with two sets) and they've been perfect with no issues. There's probably only a few people in Amer that know how many they've actually sold worldwide (for example, my Sallie guy only knows the UK sales) but considering that the vast majority of shops have sold more Shifts than all of their other bindings sales combined for the last three seasons then the numbers have to be pretty huge and the percentage of those with (non set-up) issues will be minute.

But the fact that the factory instruction sheet and Tech Manual info is still poor/wrong is a major fail on Amers part.

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Not to be rude but this just proved that your talking out of your ass. I’ve probably sold 100-150 shifts. Probably a dozen or two have issues with the toe lever popping down (easy fix), a few dozen have a tough time getting the afd set up (easy fix except a few that were warranty), and then there is the heel release. Probably only ten people at best complain about releasing too easy.

But that’s the point. Most people suck at skiing and go down the hill at 10km an hour. The heel release isn’t a set up issue. It’s people expecting more out of this binding and skiing it too hard and rough. No matter how it’s set up. Ski it mellower and it’s 100% good to go. But you can’t ski this like you would in a comp no matter how it is set up.

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Originally Posted by HAB

All you need to do is to shove your forearm into the cuff of the boot, and pull back to get the toe welt to sit where it's supposed to. Then adjust the AFD until it comes up to meet the boot sole. Easy.

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Egg-zactly ... like we've been doing for years.

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Originally Posted by GoldenBC

Not to be rude but this just proved that your talking out of your ass. I’ve probably sold 100-150 shifts. Probably a dozen or two have issues with the toe lever popping down (easy fix), a few dozen have a tough time getting the afd set up (easy fix except a few that were warranty), and then there is the heel release. Probably only ten people at best complain about releasing too easy.

But that’s the point. Most people suck at skiing and go down the hill at 10km an hour. The heel release isn’t a set up issue. It’s people expecting more out of this binding and skiing it too hard and rough. No matter how it’s set up. Ski it mellower and it’s 100% good to go. But you can’t ski this like you would in a comp no matter how it is set up.

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This. I dont know why people think a lightweight binding is gonna ski like a pivot. It makes no sense. Noone takes a prius to a rally. Choose your tool.

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Originally Posted by anotherVTskibum

Outside ski bouncing along, approaching perpendicular to the direction of travel, with the weight on the inside ski (and back)? I may not have timing quite right, but it looks like that ski stayed on through a couple of bounces before escaping.

I'd call that pilot error. Yes, a high-elasticity binding will mitigate that, but expecting a mostly unweighted ski to stay on while it bounces, decambers, and then flexes past unloaded is some serious optimism.

IMO, the shift probably isn't the most friendly binding for harsh skiing; I think the Pivot probably still takes that crown. But it seems to work just fine for aggressive skiing until you expect mor.e elasticity than is available.

Sent from my SM-G892A using TGR Forums mobile app

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I agree with the latter part, but to expect a ski to come off in that situation is crazy. I wouldn’t feel safe doing anything, and all the ski movies out there would be really lame, if bindings weren’t expected to hold through a slight drift in powder.

Ya know what bindings always work in a slight drift through powder? Standard alpine clamps or good tech bindings. Just say no to hybrid, problem solved.

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Originally Posted by thefortrees

Ya know what bindings always work in a slight drift through powder? Standard alpine clamps or good tech bindings. Just say no to hybrid, problem solved.

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Exactly. I can ski pretty hard on my MTNs

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Originally Posted by GoldenBC

Not to be rude but this just proved that your talking out of your ass........

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No I'm not talking out of my ass. If you took the time to properly read my post you will see my comment was responding to kootenayskier's post ie "I just figured they’d (the Shifts) be fine for smooth, technical, skis on the snow, hardly ever fall, 50 plus powder skiing. I’m not sure they are." So what I was saying was that a good proportion of my Shift sales are to this market and for which the Shifts are perfect. So I'm not disagreeing with you at all.

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Originally Posted by Spyderjon

I've sold hundreds of them and a good proportion of them are to that market (inc myself with two sets) and they've been perfect with no issues. There's probably only a few people in Amer that know how many they've actually sold worldwide (for example, my Sallie guy only knows the UK sales) but considering that the vast majority of shops have sold more Shifts than all of their other bindings sales combined for the last three seasons then the numbers have to be pretty huge and the percentage of those with (non set-up) issues will be minute.

But the fact that the factory instruction sheet and Tech Manual info is still poor/wrong is a major fail on Amers part.

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Shifts obviously seem to work well enough for many people (including myself) as a mediocre (ok, but not good at either) hybrid binding, when used with touring, gripwalk, or WTR soles. However from first hand experience, and after discussing the matter at length with my local shop techs, Shifts simply do not work as advertised when adjusted for Alpine DIN soles. The extreme erect angle and limited contact surface of the AFD required, combined with the quirky and unstable stepped adjustment mechanism makes them poorer performing (my boot moves more than I find acceptable in the binding) and less reliable (they release unpredictably) for high performance skiing than the even the cheapest regular alpine binding of comparable DIN from any manufacturer. I’m open to understanding what I’m doing wrong, what might be unique about my boots, or what might be defective about my bindings, but I don’t find sales a convincing argument. 84% of the World’s population believe that supernatural entities underpin reality, so I’m skeptical of the wisdom of crowds.

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Originally Posted by rod9301

Exactly. I can ski pretty hard on my MTNs

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Same. And Vipecs Alpinists Rotations Verticals TLTs

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Originally Posted by kootenayskier

Shifts obviously seem to work well enough for many people (including myself) as a mediocre (ok, but not good at either) hybrid binding, when used with touring, gripwalk, or WTR soles. However from first hand experience, and after discussing the matter at length with my local shop techs, Shifts simply do not work as advertised when adjusted for Alpine DIN soles. The extreme erect angle and limited contact surface of the AFD required, combined with the quirky and unstable stepped adjustment mechanism makes them poorer performing (my boot moves more than I find acceptable in the binding) and less reliable (they release unpredictably) for high performance skiing than the even the cheapest regular alpine binding of comparable DIN from any manufacturer. I’m open to understanding what I’m doing wrong, what might be unique about my boots, or what might be defective about my bindings, but I don’t find sales a convincing argument. 84% of the World’s population believe that supernatural entities underpin reality, so I’m skeptical of the wisdom of crowds.

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I do think this binding is garbage when used with alpine soles.

I've seen a lot of good info come from Spyderjon over the years, the rest of you would do well just to qualify to drink his bathwater

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Originally Posted by kootenayskier

...........Shifts simply do not work as advertised when adjusted for Alpine DIN soles. The extreme erect angle and limited contact surface of the AFD required, combined with the quirky and unstable stepped adjustment mechanism makes them poorer performing (my boot moves more than I find acceptable in the binding) and less reliable (they release unpredictably) for high performance skiing........

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This comment got me thinking and I yes I can see how that could be the case. So I've just finished going through my mounting records for over 300 sets of Shifts (311 to be exact, not all of which I supplied) and I've only mounted 17 sets for boots with alpine soles. Of the remaining 203 were for GW soles and 91 were for full AT soles. Off the alpine soled boots half of them didn't have tech inserts but the owners were planning a boot change in the near future so they'll now most likely be set up for GW or AT as well. The remaining few were either XT Free's or Cochise's. Interestingly, out of the GW soled boots over half of them were Hawx Ultra XTD's.

A big proportion of my Shifts have had dins set for type II/III skiers there's still a good number of rippers in there on type III+ settings and higher. So whilst my Shifts have been trouble free (well actually that's not true as I'd forgotten I've had one with the dodgy touring lever which was warranted before Amer came up with the replacement din window) only a handful of them are with alpine soles.

So whilst my experience of the Shifts to date has led me to call "set-up error" whenever an issue is posted it'd be interesting from those that are having problems what boot spec they're using. It could easily be the case that, once the set-up has been double checked, that all toe issues are related to alpine soles and all heel pre-releases are with boots heels that are on the thicker side of the tolerance etc.

I got the new AFD mounted and was just about to go ski but decided to double check the setup.

My local shop had the bindings completely out of spec. One AFD all the way down, one AFD all the way up to the point it was too tight, boot length incorrect on both, forward pressure incorrect on both. Luckily I have another pair that was setup correctly by a different shop back in Colorado that I've never had issues with.

I was able to confirm that other binding was in spec per Lee's NS post and adjust the set with issues accordingly.

I'm guessing that not having enough play in the toes is what broke the AFD to begin with.

I must have double ejected because the shop set things up incorrectly and I had not enough forward pressure with the heal of the binding being too close to the toe and the toe height being too clamped down. All of that led to some combination that resulted in not enough elasticity, which equaled pre-release.

My local shop has been cool, but I feel like maybe I should tell them about the issues with their techs mounting things out of spec.

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Originally Posted by Kevo

......My local shop has been cool, but I feel like maybe I should tell them about the issues with their techs mounting things out of spec.

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Most definitely.

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Originally Posted by Spyderjon

Most definitely.

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+1. People often hate to bring up issues because it feels like conflict, but if you're trying to run a business, you're bitch better off hearing that something didn't come out right from the customer than just having them walk away and tell their friends.

On the alpine-sole front, I spent last season in Lange Freetour XTs with the DIN soles installed and did not experience any unwanted releases, even at a book type-III value, but I'm not into big air and had the STHs on my previous all-mountain skis set low enough that I could easily kick out of the heel if I want to. From some of the trouble reports, I feel like that type of setting wouldn't work for a lot of the folks unhappy with the Shifts.

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