PSA: Mount your own fucking skis.

I always tap all holes, which means you should slso knock out the plastic tabs in binding baseplates with a round file, as mentioned above. Those tabs hold the screws in the bindings during shipment, but they interfere with the screw threads lining up with the tapped threads in the ski. The screws should spin freely in the bindings, so you can accurately feel what's going on when tightening the screws in the ski.

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Originally Posted by brundo

What do you mean the holes got damaged? These are new holes.

Also could you elaborate more on what you mean by "dry run"?

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You're probably fine. But yes, just the act of inserting a screw into a brand new hole can damage the inner walls of that new hole, especially if the screw is inserted carelessly. I think you know that a "spinner" is one way to damage a new hole. Another way is a "volcano" visible at the top surface, which could be considered a form of "upward deformation damage" to the inner walls of the new hole (although volcano damage is typically not severe). And if your new hole partially overlaps with a dowel plug, then that dowel is now part of the inner wall of the new hole, and now that dowel can also experience "upward deformation damage" as the screw gets driven into the new hole, not unlike the typical volcano effect. It would be bad if the whole dowel somehow moved/deformed upward as a result of driving the screw down---which is possible, depending on your methods. Perhaps the worst outcome is when people insert a screw so carelessly into a metal topsheet that the metal gets driven upwards and delams away from the wood core, which seems more likely to happen when people don't use a real tap tool on the metal.

Next time, if you insert the screw only, as a "dry run" to perform the forceful self-tapping BEFORE mounting the actual binding, then you will be able to see any possible deformation before you place the actual binding on top of the hole (which then blocks your view of the hole). I always seem to get a tiny bit of volcano on my dry runs, but ideally there would be no volcano at all. At least my dry run allows me to see how good or bad the volcano is BEFORE I mount the actual binding. By "dry run" screw insertion, I mean insert the screw only, like this:
Attachment 303754

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Originally Posted by Vitamin I

You're probably fine. But yes, just the act of inserting a screw into a brand new hole can damage the inner walls of that new hole, especially if the screw is inserted carelessly. I think you know that a "spinner" is one way to damage a new hole. Another way is a "volcano" visible at the top surface, which could be considered a form of "upward deformation damage" to the inner walls of the new hole (although volcano damage is typically not severe). And if your new hole partially overlaps with a dowel plug, then that dowel is now part of the inner wall of the new hole, and now that dowel can also experience "upward deformation damage" as the screw gets driven into the new hole, not unlike the typical volcano effect. It would be bad if the whole dowel somehow moved/deformed upward as a result of driving the screw down---which is possible, depending on your methods. Perhaps the worst outcome is when people insert a screw so carelessly into a metal topsheet that the metal gets driven upwards and delams away from the wood core, which seems more likely to happen when people don't use a real tap tool on the metal.

Next time, if you insert the screw only, as a "dry run" to perform the forceful self-tapping BEFORE mounting the actual binding, then you will be able to see any possible deformation before you place the actual binding on top of the hole (which then blocks your view of the hole). I always seem to get a tiny bit of volcano on my dry runs, but ideally there would be no volcano at all. At least my dry run allows me to see how good or bad the volcano is BEFORE I mount the actual binding. By "dry run" screw insertion, I mean insert the screw only, like this:


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Okay, so in summary you're screwing in the holes without the binding mounted = dry run. This is to check for volcanoes, gotcha. But what's the point? Say you do get some volcanoes. It's not like you're going to go with a whole new set of holes because some of the holes volcanoed. Or do you let them volcano and then cut them flush with the ski, which eliminate a gap between the binding and the ski?

I just use a normal drill bit to drill binding holes so I will get Volcanos when I run the screws in

SO I chamfer the top of the hole with a sharp 5/16ths bit, before I put in any screws

I rotate the 5/16th bit by hand not very deep, just enough to take the top sheet off

so that top sheet material that causes the volcano is cut away before it can make a Volcano

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Originally Posted by brundo

Okay, so in summary you're screwing in the holes without the binding mounted = dry run. This is to check for volcanoes, gotcha. But what's the point? Say you do get some volcanoes. It's not like you're going to go with a whole new set of holes because some of the holes volcanoed. Or do you let them volcano and then cut them flush with the ski, which eliminate a gap between the binding and the ski?

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I think he’s saying that if you see the hole deform and the screw migrate into your old hole, the one that overlaps your new hole, then you might assume there’s a problem. If the screw goes straight in with no weirdness, as if it was going into a hole that didn’t overlap another hole, then you can have some confidence.

Quick spin with this brass coloured taper bit after drilling the holes... don't take too much... just widen the hole in the top mm of the top sheet.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...48fe8fa75a.jpg

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Originally Posted by lucknau

I think he’s saying that if you see the hole deform and the screw migrate into your old hole, the one that overlaps your new hole, then you might assume there’s a problem. If the screw goes straight in with no weirdness, as if it was going into a hole that didn’t overlap another hole, then you can have some confidence.

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Ah gotcha. That makes sense. I've always thought the bigger danger was the drill bit migrating into old hole when pre-drilling, but good to keep an eye out for.

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

I just use a normal drill bit to drill binding holes so I will get Volcanos when I run the screws in

SO I chamfer the top of the hole with a sharp 5/16ths bit, before I put in any screws

I rotate the 5/16th bit by hand not very deep, just enough to take the top sheet off

so that top sheet material that causes the volcano is cut away before it can make a Volcano

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Yep, this is what I currently do even when using a binding mounting drill bit.

Ya the chamfered part on a real mounting bit ^^ is under the step and that is all the material that needs to be removed,

Had a real fail last night. Went to go finally mount my new Protests with STH2 16s out in the garage. Had everything ready to go. Had the templates all lined up perfectly and then went to double check the holes with the bindings and realized i had the wrong templates. Then i also realized i was missing a heelpiece screw. shit.

Looks like itll be another week till i can swing by a shop to grab an extra screw.

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

Ya the chamfered part on a real mounting bit ^^ is under the step and that is all the material that needs to be removed,

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Cool I didn't know that

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

Had a real fail last night. Went to go finally mount my new Protests with STH2 16s out in the garage. Had everything ready to go. Had the templates all lined up perfectly and then went to double check the holes with the bindings and realized i had the wrong templates. Then i also realized i was missing a heelpiece screw. shit.

Looks like itll be another week till i can swing by a shop to grab an extra screw.

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I just use the binding as the template cuz its always the right one, the only difficult part is where on the ski to put the binding in relation to ski/boot center, not the actual hole pattern and it has always worked for me

but its mutherfucking heresy eh and if anyone else trys it their pickup truck will stop working and their wife will leave them

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Originally Posted by lucknau

I think he’s saying that if you see the hole deform and the screw migrate into your old hole, the one that overlaps your new hole, then you might assume there’s a problem. If the screw goes straight in with no weirdness, as if it was going into a hole that didn’t overlap another hole, then you can have some confidence.

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Yeah, my point was: If you suspect that any hole might possibly end up as sketchy, then a dry run will help you to first see how good or bad that hole responds to a screw being driven into it, to gain or lose confidence in the hole BEFORE you mount the actual binding piece. Standard volcano deformation is NOT sketchy, IMO. But partial overlap of a new hole with a doweled/plugged hole is INDEED possibly sketchy, so a dry run lets you see if something goes wrong or not. If something goes wrong with the dowel/plug, then start over and re-dowel/re-plug that hole using better methods than whatever method failed.

ALSO, I am saying that there is another way for an overlapping hole to fail besides lucknau's mentioned failure of a screw migrating into the old plugged hole. I'm saying it is ALSO possible for a dowel/plug to get driven UPWARD in a way that can be worse than mere "volcano-ing". Heck, it's even possible for a poorly bonded dowel to completely detach and pull out upwards, depending on how good or bad your methods are. But anyway, after you dial in your methods for epoxied dowels/plugs/screw insertion/etc., then you can gain confidence in your methods and not worry about it.

.

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Originally Posted by Vitamin I

Yeah, my point was: If you suspect that any hole might possibly end up as sketchy, then a dry run will help you to first see how good or bad that hole responds to a screw being driven into it, to gain or lose confidence in the hole BEFORE you mount the actual binding piece. Standard volcano deformation is NOT sketchy, IMO. But partial overlap of a new hole with a doweled/plugged hole is INDEED possibly sketchy, so a dry run lets you see if something goes wrong or not. If something goes wrong with the dowel/plug, then start over and re-dowel/re-plug that hole using better methods than whatever method failed.

ALSO, I am saying that there is another way for an overlapping hole to fail besides lucknau's mentioned failure of a screw migrating into the old plugged hole. I'm saying it is ALSO possible for a dowel/plug to get driven UPWARD in a way that can be worse than mere "volcano-ing". Heck, it's even possible for a poorly bonded dowel to completely detach and pull out upwards, depending on how good or bad your methods are. But anyway, after you dial in your methods for epoxied dowels/plugs/screw insertion/etc., then you can gain confidence in your methods and not worry about it.

.

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Okay, so lets say the dowel hole responds fine, but you drive the screw in and it is a sketchy hole. What route do you take to fix it? The only thing that comes to mind is an insert.

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Originally Posted by brundo

Okay, so lets say the dowel hole responds fine, but you drive the screw in and it is a sketchy hole. What route do you take to fix it? The only thing that comes to mind is an insert.

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People have posted methods in this huge thread. Like helicoil, or brass tap-in insert, or nylon tap-in insert, or stainless steel M5 threaded insert, or mounting plate, or plug with mixture of shredded fiberglass & epoxy, or plug with mixture of shredded steel wool & epoxy, and/or re-dowel the hole using methods better than whatever method failed the first time.

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I freeballed another 4 mounts on some old ski models.
- Whitedot Ragnarok 193cm 2013, Salomon S900 DIN=16
- Rossignol Squad7 190cm 2013, Salomon S900 DIN=20
- Dynastar Legend Pro 194cm 2008, mismatched FKS DIN=15
- 4FRNT KYE 110 188cm 2017, Salomon S900 DIN=16
Attachment 303818
Attachment 303819
Attachment 303820
Attachment 303821

From doing back to back testing on a demo binding, I can't feel the difference moving the boot center 1cm makes, maybe on a hard snow ski ?

SO do you really need to put that new mount here you did OR could you have moved it 1 cm ?

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

From doing back to back testing on a demo binding, I can't feel the difference moving the boot center 1cm makes, maybe on a hard snow ski ?

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How noticeable binding position is changes a lot from ski to ski. Some skis I don't notice it at all. Some skis .5 cm is noticeable.

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

Ya the chamfered part on a real mounting bit ^^ is under the step and that is all the material that needs to be removed,

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I always wondered about this...I noticed that the drill bit would remove a nice bit of topsheet if I drilled far enough, but I didn't realize it was actually a GOOD thing. Will be sure to do that from now on.

Great info in this thread as always.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

From doing back to back testing on a demo binding, I can't feel the difference moving the boot center 1cm makes, maybe on a hard snow ski ?

SO do you really need to put that new mount here you did OR could you have moved it 1 cm ?

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On some skis, I can feel a difference of 0.4cm. But still I put WAY higher priority on dodging old holes than positioning the bindings at my precise favorite position.

Also, when the hole conflict is in the heel only, then you can often drill the heel 0.7-1.0cm away from what a jig indicates (to dodge old holes), and then just adjust the mounted heel piece 0.7-1.0cm to compensate. No need to move the toe piece, if no hole conflict in the toes---in which case your boot center stays where you wanted it, even though you drilled the heel 0.7-1.0cm away from what a jig indicates.

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Originally Posted by toast2266

How noticeable binding position is changes a lot from ski to ski. Some skis I don't notice it at all. Some skis .5 cm is noticeable.

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I agree with this 100%.

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

Ya the chamfered part on a real mounting bit ^^ is under the step and that is all the material that needs to be removed,

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Depends on the bit.

The bit I have has a flat shoulder and isn't chamfered... which is why I have the other taper bit in my kit.

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maybe if you are greg from alpinezone skiing some sweet eastern pow ( AKA glare ice ) you can feel half a cm but this aint that SO i gotta call bulshit

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Originally Posted by Vitamin I

On some skis, I can feel a difference of 0.4cm. But still I put WAY higher priority on dodging old holes than positioning the bindings at my precise favorite position.

Also, when the hole conflict is in the heel only, then you can often drill the heel 0.7-1.0cm away from what a jig indicates (to dodge old holes), and then just adjust the mounted heel piece 0.7-1.0cm to compensate. No need to move the toe piece, if no hole conflict in the toes---in which case your boot center stays where you wanted it, even though you drilled the heel 0.7-1.0cm away from what a jig indicates.

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Somehow never thought of this. Great idea

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

maybe if you are greg from alpinezone skiing some sweet eastern pow ( AKA glare ice ) you can feel half a cm but this aint that SO i gotta call bulshit

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"The Princess and the Mounting Point Off by the Width of a Pea"

Mounted my own fucking skis. QST99+Shifts
Attachment 303949