Student Loan Forgiveness

Attachment 424680

Note that even people without a college degree are more likely to favor debt relief than not. Also those without a college degree are less likely to ‘strongly oppose’ debt relief than those with a graduate degree (!?)

So a smart person would only buy something he could afford?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by summit

Yes, that hypothetical is not the common case, but why is it a case at all?

---

Expediency.

Did you have other questions?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong

You forgot philosophy majors:

Attachment 424673

---

Hey now. I have a philosophy degree.
Oh wait. I’m doing ok.

I’m glad some of you agree about the BK thing.

The counter argument is poor folks can’t go to colledge. But I say have special programs for that. Like Pell grants.
Oh wait. We have had that for years.

the whole idea that the magic debt fairy saddled you with a sickness like cancer is laughably unintelligent

If this was 100% about fixing a broken system I could maybe pile on a bit more against it, but it isn’t, is it? As much as anything, this is about keeping the economy flowing and improving outlooks. If I have $10K to $20K in debt forgiven, I’m gonna feel a bit better about taking a vacation or buying a new car. Particularly when all the economic news has been so fucking dire the last 4 months. We need a boost, because outlook and narrative so closely drives reality.

Also, I think a programmer and a nurse were used as potential beneficiaries, and I can’t really think of a better example of who we should be incenting/rewarding. Not from any “fairness” stance, but from a healthy society stance. As OG stated upthread, We need people to pursue education and learn how to code and take care of sick people and everything else. We need people to be educated, even if it’s just a philosophy or liberal arts degree. Student loan forgiveness doesn’t address that very directly, though the discretionary income repayment updates might.

K-16 public school is probably the best idea I’ve seen yet, and proposals to make community college free makes all the sense in the world. You can make 13-16 optional, with similar degree programs run through public/community institutions. Then you can let the partyers still get mired deep into student loan debt at private or state universities. Debt that can be discharged in bankruptcy and let capitalism do what it’s designed to do while still promoting the public interest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by skifishbum

the whole idea that the magic debt fairy saddled you with a sickness like cancer is laughably unintelligent

---

I don’t love the cancer analogy. But the point is still easy enough to parse: crying about somebody else getting a good thing seems as tone deaf as comparing it to a cancer cure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mustonen

I don’t love the cancer analogy. But the point is still easy enough to parse: crying about somebody else getting a good thing seems as tone deaf as comparing it to a cancer cure.

---

Im a college grad. I busted my ass to pay my loans off in a handful of years. Canceling a portion of peoples loan debt rubs me the wrong way because it feels like they were gifted something they didnt work for like i did. I also realize that logically, it doesnt matter and on the whole its a good thing for them and me, if these debtors now have cash freed up to spend on the shit i do for work. Even if its a very small benefit. I also am disgusted by most peoples financial habits, so that plays a large part into debt cancelation rubbing me the wrong way. I recognize its a selfish way to look at things, and i also recognize its a net positive thing. Something i would happily bitch and moan about, but then also vote for when pressed.


That said, for the folks who never accumulated student debt by not going to college/etc, is it fair that they should have to help subsidize this debt cancelation? they obviously would benefit from the (hopefully) better economy resulting from people having more discretionary income, but does that hard-to-quantify benefit outweigh their hard-to-quantify payment into the system to subsidize the debt cancellation? I mean, this has to get paid for somehow, right?


IMO, it would seem more fair to apply the student loan debt cancelation to ALL debt... though im sure that would be infinitely more complicated to implement. I mean, when people spent the money they didnt have (on a car, clothes, medical bills, etc), it did help the economy... in many cases more than Jeremy's graduate degree in underwater basket weaving. How about we cancel medical debt first, before we look at canceling student loan debt?

The thing I struggle with the most on this is the upper cap. An individual making $125,000 a year should not qualify for program. Period.

Households making $250,000 are eligible?! What the fucking shit.




Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by californiagrown

Im a college grad. I busted my ass to pay my loans off in a handful of years. Canceling a portion of peoples loan debt rubs me the wrong way because it feels like they were gifted something they didnt work for like i did. I also realize that logically, it doesnt matter and on the whole its a good thing for them and me, if these debtors now have cash freed up to spend on the shit i do for work. Even if its a very small benefit. I also am disgusted by most peoples financial habits, so that plays a large part into debt cancelation rubbing me the wrong way.


That said, for the folks who never accumulated student debt by not going to college/etc, is it fair that they should have to help subsidize this debt cancelation? they obviously would benefit from the (hopefully) better economy resulting from people having more discretionary income, but does that hard-to-quantify benefit outweigh their hard-to-quantify payment into the system to subsidize the debt cancellation?

---

Sure it is. Those people who didn’t go to college also benefit from nurses and teachers and programmers and engineers and everybody else, and they benefit from those people living in their communities. Both are just as hard to quantify as those folk having a bit more discretionary income. If you can’t quantify it, do you not do it? I dunno….

My only real concern is where we start to unbalance our incentives such that we work against ourselves, and I don’t see that here. Some people win the lottery from their couch and some people work like a dog their whole lives without ever having a pot to piss in. This isn’t really trying to rebalance all the scales, and there’s tons of work to do there that won’t happen via executive orders.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by californiagrown

IMO, i would seem more fair to apply the student loan debt cancelation to ALL debt... though im sure that would be infinitely more complicated to implement. I mean, when people spent the money they didnt have (on a car, clothes, medical bills, etc), it did help the economy... in many cases more than Jeremy's graduate degree in underwater basket weaving.

---

But your comparison isn’t zero sum. If we can free up Jeremy to better contribute to the economy going forward that is good, too, any value judgment we may make re: his life choices notwithstanding.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by east or bust

The thing I struggle with the most on this is the upper cap. An individual making $125,000 a year should not qualify for program. Period.

Households making $250,000 are eligible?! What the fucking shit.




Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

---

Have you tried to live in LA or NYC or even fucking St Louis on $125k these days? It’s not caviar and champagne. It’s a 1 bedroom with a car payment. Maybe. Especially if you have loans you’re paying down

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mustonen

My only real concern is where we start to unbalance our incentives such that we work against ourselves, and I don’t see that here..

---

To quote Krugman, a major principle of economics is people respond to incentives.

Say what you want about PPP, CHIPS, etc. but they are incentive based. Do X and you get Y. Your college "output" is not a factor for loan forgiveness, having the loan is all it takes! Deadbeat basement bro, the overworked teacher and the Anthropologist working at the coffee shop are all cashing those checks.

I support K-16 curriculum overhaul, taking a blowtorch to how we fund education, and loan dismissal for the most disadvantaged, but this feels like pushing the "easy" button.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hatchgreenchile

To quote Krugman, a major principle of economics is people respond to incentives.

Say what you want about PPP, CHIPS, etc. but they are incentive based. Do X and you get Y. Your college "output" is not a factor for loan forgiveness, having the loan is all it takes! Deadbeat basement bro, the overworked teacher and the Anthropologist working at the coffee shop are all cashing those checks.

I support K-16 curriculum overhaul, taking a blowtorch to how we fund education, and loan dismissal for the most disadvantaged, but this feels like pushing the "easy" button.

---

the program has an income cap, so yes, it is very much Ed based on “outcome”.

and PPP was straight fucking welfare of keeping people on payroll no matter if they did anything at all, which was the point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supermoon

Have you tried to live in LA or NYC or even fucking St Louis on $125k these days? It’s not caviar and champagne. It’s a 1 bedroom with a car payment. Maybe. Especially if you have loans you’re paying down

---

It's OK. We don't need college graduates as nurses, teachers, civil engineers or business types in any of those places. They choose to live there.


By the logic of "I worked hard and paid mine" --- I should be as pissed as anyone. I paid off 65k of loans in the last 6 years on the salary of a early childhood data geek for the govt in Denver. Not exactly flying high. Last year I paid off the last 9k of my loans (all federal) when I got the only windfall of my life (6k). I could've just ridden it out and got it cancelled.

Am I pissed? Fuck no. This is such a good thing for the vast majority of <40 college grads that I know and work with.

We owed something like 8x the average in our student loans. Still paying em off. $10k is a drop in the bucket and I’m not sure we will even qualify. But hey, I’ll take it if we can. Already paying a shitload more than that in taxes this year.

It is total bullshit though. I’d rather they fix the system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong

Attachment 424680

---

Interesting data. For all the handwringing in this thread about it not being fair about it be 125k line for the 10k -- it's people with less education and lower incomes that are more supportive of forgiveness. Please don't pull the paternalistic "people don't know whats good for them" argument -- or that "well this policy is not as good as it could be" -- we fucking know that. No policy is as good as it could be.

Those that oppose are more likely to be making 100k+, have post grad degrees, be 45 or older, and white. Now that doesn't sound like anyone on TGR....

Where do I find the details of the program to see who qualifies? I have a recent grad and a current student.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Danno

I actually think this one gets glossed over all the time, and is really hudge.

---

telling people that was gradual policy failure over thirty years is hard for them to accept. First change was 1976, last 2005. The most pathetic thing about it is there was little substantive evidence for the early changes that it was even a problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by riser4

Where do I find the details of the program to see who qualifies? I have a recent grad and a current student.

---

https://studentaid.gov/debt-relief-announcement/

Data shows that this will move 500k black people from negative to positive net worth.

https://twitter.com/bakerdphd/status...9NRioSqmcHzv5w

If the numbers are true, regardless of what you think about the income caps, 95% of pell grant recipients had household incomes <$65k . Thats not upper class.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dunfree

the program has an income cap, so yes, it is very much Ed based on “outcome”.

and PPP was straight fucking welfare of keeping people on payroll no matter if they did anything at all, which was the point.

---

There should be a higher bar to clear besides "have a loan". Ex: Unfinished degrees are still eligible for forgiveness. I'd argue "Put skin in the game, finish your degree, and then cash your check".
No doubt, PPP's bar was too low. It has been covered hundreds of times.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sirbumpsalot

Yes...nearly everyone in congress continues to give out the taxpayers money and incumbents keep getting voted in.

---

You sound like a Fox Opinions propaganda spin junkie

Cult member your are...if you think the MAIN problem is all the richie rich congress members

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supermoon

Have you tried to live in LA or NYC or even fucking St Louis on $125k these days? It’s not caviar and champagne. It’s a 1 bedroom with a car payment. Maybe. Especially if you have loans you’re paying down

---

Eh, i dont really buy that argument. I owned a 2x2 condo and lived very comfortably (by my standards) in the seattle area making a a good chunk less than $100k over the last 5 years. And i was able to save a good chunk every year too. I think most people are shitty with money and/or have unrealistically high expectations for their standard of living. Thats not to say there aren't plenty of people doing the right things and still scraping by, but the above statement is kinda BS IME.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hatchgreenchile

There should be a higher bar to clear besides "have a loan". Ex: Unfinished degrees are still eligible for forgiveness. I'd argue "Put skin in the game, finish your degree, and then cash your check".
No doubt, PPP's bar was too low. It has been covered hundreds of times.

---

Unfortunately, there are lots of people with unfinished degrees who stopped going because of the expense. And degree completion is especially low from the shady for-profit outfits who like i prey on the poor.

Sent from my Pixel 5a using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supermoon

Data shows that this will move 500k black people from negative to positive net worth.

https://twitter.com/bakerdphd/status...9NRioSqmcHzv5w

---

Shit. I’m taking a long position in Newports

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mustonen

Sure it is. Those people who didn’t go to college also benefit from nurses and teachers and programmers and engineers and everybody else, and they benefit from those people living in their communities.

---

It would be interesting to see the breakdown of what the professions are of people having debt forgiven, what their major was, and how old they are at the time of debt forgiveness. Also, would these people continue living in the poorer/rural/bluecollar communities if they didnt have a large amount of debt siphoning off their income?


crappy anecdotal sample of 1: One of the younger partners at my wifes law firm will be having $10k of debt forgiven despite making +$2mil in 2020 and likely to make +$5mil in 2023. They only get paid when cases settle/payout and go a couple years between big cases. She was advised to hold off paying down her $200k in loans in the hopes the biden administration would do a big student debt cancellation. She has only made her base salary of $45k last year and will again this year, so she qualifies i think?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by californiagrown

Eh, i dont really buy that argument. I owned a 2x2 condo and lived very comfortably (by my standards) in the seattle area making a a good chunk less than $100k over the last 5 years. And i was able to save a good chunk every year too. I think most people are shitty with money and/or have unrealistically high expectations for their standard of living. Thats not to say there aren't plenty of people doing the right things and still scraping by, but the above statement is kinda BS IME.

---

Unrealistic expectations like being able to have a child before you pay off your student loans? Making $100k you'll qualify for no child care subsidies -- so a kid is gonna cost you $1500 a month if you're lucky--$2000 more realistically.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by californiagrown

....
crappy anecdotal sample of 1: One of the younger partners at my wifes law firm will be having $10k of debt forgiven despite making +$2mil in 2020 and likely to make +$5mil in 2023. They only get paid when cases settle/payout and go a couple years between big cases. She was advised to hold off paying down her $200k in loans in the hopes the biden administration would do a big student debt cancellation. She has only made her base salary of $45k last year and will again this year, so she qualifies i think?

---

There's no indication of how they will calculate salary yet from what I've seen. I would expect they are well aware the compensation packages for high earners look unlike those for low earners. Your anecdotal example is someone earning in the 0.1% -- hardly representative.

My wife's an example: she taught as an adjunct at a spending private university for the last 6 years because she loves teaching. Made ~45k a year. Has plenty of loans. We realized we wanted kids and simply could not make the math work unless one of us switch career paths -- especially if we ever wanted a house with a 2nd bathroom and a WFH space. We drive very expensive cars (2013 minivan and a 2007 civic.) She switched to being a SWE, works at a FAANG and has had a base salary of $125k for the last 9 months. No idea if she'll qualify, but it'd be cool if she does.

The only question I ask is how long will taxpayer money be needed to bail out student debt?

Or, did this really fix the problem?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by doebedoe

There's no indication of how they will calculate salary yet from what I've seen. I would expect they are well aware the compensation packages for high earners look unlike those for low earners. Your anecdotal example is someone earning in the 0.1% -- hardly representative.

My wife's an example: she taught as an adjunct at a spending private university for the last 6 years because she loves teaching. Made ~45k a year. Has plenty of loans. We realized we wanted kids and simply could not make the math work unless one of us switch career paths -- especially if we ever wanted a house with a 2nd bathroom and a WFH space. We drive very expensive cars (2013 minivan and a 2007 civic.) She switched to being a SWE, works at a FAANG and has had a base salary of $125k for the last 9 months. No idea if she'll qualify, but it'd be cool if she does.

---

I wonder if they’re deliberately keeping it vague just to see where the challenges come from so they can adapt and adjust? Details would be nice…. It’s unclear if I’ll see any benefit from this, but even if that was clear I have some skepticism that it isn’t blown up before fruition.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by doebedoe

Unrealistic expectations like being able to have a child before you pay off your student loans? Making $100k you'll qualify for no child care subsidies -- so a kid is gonna cost you $1500 a month if you're lucky--$2000 more realistically.

---

Because it’s society’s responsibility to make sure people can have children? I thought the gov already gave tax credits for kids.

Why not line up the cap for student loan forgiveness with the cap for the child stimulus? More kids is long term economic play. But if those who went to college get some debt forgiven, they can have more kids.

This whole thing is about the economy right? Why not just give everyone under a certain income a tax credit school debt or not or just start sending stimulus checks out again but this time to households earning under $250k.

Maybe Andrew Yang is right and there should be universal minimum income. Maybe the dems are pandering to voters. Maybe I’m trolling with my above comments.

I’m more in line with Danno’s cartoon and we shouldn’t be arguing about not helping the poor out and closing the wealth gap but JFC, rip the damn bandaid off and quit piecemealing little short term fixes for specific populations.

Let’s go back to the cancer analogy. I’d be a lot happier if the gov earmarked matching funds that they’ll spend to student loans towards medical debt. Sure, medical debt can be counted in bankruptcy so shouldn’t be as important right? Bankruptcy is a choice right? Pulling yourself out of medical bankruptcy is a bootstrap thing right? It’s easy to do and live in a high cost area and have kids after washing away your debt in court right? Getting an expensive disease is a choice just like signing loan paperwork to go to school right?

I’m expecting supporters of the student loan forgiveness to vote in the next elections and put their support to either Yang or Sanders to really fix this stuff.

Yeah, I’m trolling.

Attachment 424704

^^just a funny thing I found on the internet. I’m closer to bemused than outright supportive of the latest action. Not fully following most of the tirades against it, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supermoon

Have you tried to live in LA or NYC or even fucking St Louis on $125k these days? It’s not caviar and champagne. It’s a 1 bedroom with a car payment. Maybe. Especially if you have loans you’re paying down

---

Ok, don’t necessarily disagree with your point. But I’d be curious what, if any, measures are being put in place to prevent someone like me in Idaho Falls from getting the money. I make a fair bit less than $125k and if I don’t buy stupid shit can bank $1000+ a month. Why would someone meeting that demographic need this payout.

I’m not against this program, but it needs to be way more refined than how it’s being marketed. There are areas that could use a portion of this money way more than the top demographic of this plan.


And btw, having worked in largest city in the country there’s this thing called public transit for those who can’t afford to live there (like me).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by doebedoe

Unrealistic expectations like being able to have a child before you pay off your student loans? Making $100k you'll qualify for no child care subsidies -- so a kid is gonna cost you $1500 a month if you're lucky--$2000 more realistically.

---

I dont think anyone will argue that being a single parent makes things infinitely more difficult. Hell, being a parent with a spouse to help out is still extremely complicating and difficult.

I also dont think the example i quoted was talking about single parents, or someone with a kid.


I wuold assume that they will look at either your 2021 or 2022 tax returns to get your income, depending on when the forgiveness goes into effect. If the IRS only looks at your past years income, i doubt loan forgiveness will complicate that number with something like an average... especially with how much the pandemic fucked with some peoples incomes over the past few years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by doebedoe

There's no indication of how they will calculate salary yet from what I've seen. I would expect they are well aware the compensation packages for high earners look unlike those for low earners. Your anecdotal example is someone earning in the 0.1% -- hardly representative.

My wife's an example: she taught as an adjunct at a spending private university for the last 6 years because she loves teaching. Made ~45k a year. Has plenty of loans. We realized we wanted kids and simply could not make the math work unless one of us switch career paths -- especially if we ever wanted a house with a 2nd bathroom and a WFH space. We drive very expensive cars (2013 minivan and a 2007 civic.) She switched to being a SWE, works at a FAANG and has had a base salary of $125k for the last 9 months. No idea if she'll qualify, but it'd be cool if she does.

---

I think it’s your AGI from either of your last two tax returns (2020 or 2021). So you might make it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Core Shot

Shit. I’m taking a long position in Newports

---

This is fucking gross. Do better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by doebedoe

It's OK. We don't need college graduates as nurses, teachers, civil engineers or business types in any of those places. They choose to live there.


By the logic of "I worked hard and paid mine" --- I should be as pissed as anyone. I paid off 65k of loans in the last 6 years on the salary of a early childhood data geek for the govt in Denver. Not exactly flying high. Last year I paid off the last 9k of my loans (all federal) when I got the only windfall of my life (6k). I could've just ridden it out and got it cancelled.

Am I pissed? Fuck no. This is such a good thing for the vast majority of <40 college grads that I know and work with.

---

I read that any payments made during the Covid deferral period can be claimed, so sounds like you’ll be eligible for something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hatchgreenchile

I support K-16 curriculum overhaul, taking a blowtorch to how we fund education, and loan dismissal for the most disadvantaged, but this feels like pushing the "easy" button.

---

I suspect a bunch of people would agree
The problem is that Congress is focused primarily on getting re-elected and not legislating.
In the next order of priority for Congress is grandstanding for the tribe.
Policy might slot in somewhere further down.
And good ideas are further still, but only if everyone else is on board first…cuz I need to get re-elected

I'll bite with my story, not a sad sack story by any means, I made my bed and came from a point of some privelage.
MA born, suburban Boston, good high school, parents both worked, but were not wealthy. Followed the "you can be whatever you want to be" and "everyone goes to college" mentality of where I was from. Chose an out of state state school to get farther from my folks, and chose a bullshit degree (recreation management). Tuition wasn't cheap, mid $35k/year ish.
Ended up with two sets of loans, Mom and I are on one set, Dad has a set that I am not co-signed on. I do not know what the value of those are right now, but the ones I had with mom ware ~$49k in loans for a bachelors. I'm currently 36 years old, 13 years out from graduation, and still have $24k left on those loans. Been utilizing IBR plans, paying min. monthly at a minimum, but stepped it up to more than that, paid through the pandemic.

I did not chose a path out of college that let me stay at home, nor save money. I like having good gear for my hobbies. I admit, that's on me and I could have saved better or made different decisions at 18, but, that's life. With Mom's 2nd husband passing we should have enough with this 10k and some money from her to fully kill the loans I have with her, which will free up some money to start saving for a house/paying down some other debts.

I get the opposite arguments, and I definitely won't be swayed for a midterm or next POTUS vote by this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mustonen

Attachment 424704

^^just a funny thing I found on the internet. I’m closer to bemused than outright supportive of the latest action. Not fully following most of the tirades against it, though.

---

I was thinking about this very thing last night. Catholics are great and donating a few bucks to have their sins absolved. It's interesting to see that disdain and hate coming from the Christian right for loan forgiveness.