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You still get to drink coffee, just wait a little bit. Not an insulin thing. I covered the mechanism briefly in my last post. I also notice a stronger stimulant response from an equivalent amount of caffeine.Quote:
Originally Posted by climberevan
That episode I linked to cited studies showing 800-2,000+ kcals/day can be burned by fidgeting. Further, fat loss is initiated by the nervous system so consistent low-level muscular activation enhances the process. I intentionally fidget a lot.
Yeah, not ideal. The genes that turn on fat oxidation shut off after about 1 hour of inactivity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian
I should have written "more protein than necessary". I'm concerned that WG is susceptible to the pop culture obsession with "low carb" fad diets which don't work for anyone long term, and especially don't work for athletes.Quote:
Originally Posted by bean
I didn't say that there was a danger to eating too much of it, but I am skeptical that eating more than the widely accepted 1.4-1.8g/kg is beneficial for endurance athletes.
Both of those studies are on "resistance trained" people, not endurance oriented people. They also don't seem to say that eating than much protein is good--only that's it's not unhealthy. Are you saying that there is a BENEFIT to eating more than the above range for those who are NOT trying to gain muscle mass? If so, please explain, because runs contrary to everything else I've read and observed.
I haven't carefully added up my diet (though protein adds up fast, even in legumes and whole grains), and I never said I was aiming at 1.8 anyway. WG was asking for advice, and I specifically said that what I listed worked for me. ETA: I do sometimes eat a scoop of whey protein after a particularly big day or when I'm feeling a bit unrecovered. It seems to work, so maybe I am running a little deficit.
I won't rule out the possibility that I could benefit from more protein. What would that look like in the real world? Could I do yesterday's ride in only 6 hours? (I suspect that would mean an FTP increase of something like 20%, which would be pretty unbelievable.)
Interesting. Maybe I'll give the "coffee after breakfast" another try. I was unaware of that concept of booting up the brain. But still, is it worth the cost? I don't drink coffee to wake up and do fine on days when I miss it. I just love the ritual of making it and really love the taste.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
It sounds like WG could lose his extra pudge just from being a busybody. 5h at a desk is incredible to me. I don't have a desk job so I haven't had to face that, but it sure seems like that's the real challenge. What about a treadmill desk?
Here's a bit more explanation behind the idea:Quote:
Originally Posted by climberevan
https://www.instagram.com/tv/CNsXxnU...dium=copy_link
https://podclips.com/c/XYG6UZ?ss=r&s...e&d=2021-07-21
A treadmill desk isn't really necessary. Just get up and move around for a few minutes every 30-60 minutes.
Low carb works for plenty of people long term, and Zach Bitter set the 100-mile and 12-hour on HFLC. It's not ideal for a number of reasons but your bias against it is not-but-almost as bad as the "low carb is magic and the optimal way to eat for everyone and carbs are literally poison" people.Quote:
Originally Posted by climberevan
Protein is necessary for proper recovery and gainz, 1.8g/kg should be a baseline for athletes, and all athletes should lift weights. Better to overshoot a little bit, though going to 4.4 is comically high. I thought it was funny that a quarter of the group dropped out because they couldn't handle eating that much protein.
You should know that performance improvements are typically seen in the low single-digit % range when measured if at all, and effects from diet are often more in harder to measure things like mood, perceived fatigue, etc.
Again, i was intentionally oversimplifying. I would like to learn, though, what you think makes a traditional high carb diet dangerous for athletes. I'm not taking about people who work out 4 hours a week--I'm taking about people who are getting after it 12+hours a week. You say that my advocating for it is bad, so why is that so?
WG has said he's been eating low carb (and months ago told us more details), and has said repeatedly that he has things he wants to improve about himself. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that maybe that diet isn't working for HIM.
Certainly it's possible for some people to do HFLC, and Bitter seems to make it work. I would bet a 12 speed XT derailleur or some other unobtainable part that he represents a vanishingly small minority of high performance athletes. People love to trot out those examples, but the vast majority of athletes are eating a lot of carbs.
This is turning into a more contentious-feeling thing than I'd like. Please, everyone, know that I am here to learn as well.
I said no such thing, please look again - I said your anti-low-carb advocacy is similar to the pro-low-carb zealots but to a lesser degree. Like I said I think WG is at the point where a shift to more carbs would be helpful for getting the last few pounds off. I'd recommend a gradual transition that way but, again, LC is great for unfatting yourself and for easy weight control, not getting really lean or maximizing performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by climberevan
FWIW I did various degrees of low-carb for about 2.5 years, and have gradually increased carbs over the last year and a half, and with currently eating pretty low-fat overall the bloodwork I get done ~annually is looking about as good as it ever has with records going back >10 years. I'm also leaner and overall-fitter than any point in my life despite having the extra years. BUT this is along side a relatively-high training volume so the carbs are actually being used as fuel instead of taking me for a ride on the insulin/glucose rollercoaster. I've said before that I recommend everyone try LC for at least a while and it's not just because I think it's magic - but it does offer a lot of insights and gets you in tune with your body better.
There's nothing like running a bunch of n=1 experiments to see what really works and doesn't.
For what it’s worth, many years at high training volume + being in the elite athlete world + being pretty up to speed on the newest science + having a nutritionist relative and a USA national team coach relative = the following beliefs for me:
None of fat, protein and carbs are evil. A balanced diet still works well there.
Get a ton of your carbs from veggies and as much of the rest from complex grains as you can. But it’s ok to cheat now and then if you are not trying to win a world championship. The benefits of a perfect diet over an excellent diet are very, very small.
Stay hydrated.
Eat enough protein. Super critical.
Things your great grandparents ate are a really good start.
The body can adapt to lots of diets. High protein, high carb etc. they might not be perfect but they will be ok. Except sugar. Sugar is poison in any large quantities.
Lift weights. Non negotiable.
Never underestimate the power of being active during the day. Sitting will crush your weight goals, your metabolism, your body functionality and your fitness. For a normal person there are three fitness stools: daily activity, exercise, lifting heavy things. You do all of those things you will be fit.
Eat a bit more than you need when building strength in the off season. During events be trim. But you can’t stay semi fasted like elite athletes are for their events year round. Neither can they. Can’t build enough strength in that state.
Don’t drink anything but water, weak hydration drink, recovery drink if you don’t wanna eat food, or alcohol if you like that. Nothing else. Ever. It’s shocking how many empty calories people drink. (Also I hate coffee but I know I’m nearly alone there.)
I just realized I could add another 20 of these but I’ll stop there.
Just for lulz I entered everything in my "typical" daily list into an online nutrition calculator.Quote:
Originally Posted by bean
~2800 kCal
105g protein (1.64g/kg, right in the middle of the range I'm going for).
People often assume a vegetarian diet won't have enough protein, but it adds up faster than might be obvious from whole grains, nuts, greens, and legumes, and a significant amount of cheese and yogurt in my case.
Nonetheless, I'm going to add a serving of whey isolate every day for a few weeks to push the number to just over 2g/kg. Maybe it will be better, and the cost is minimal.
None of the macros are bad, only where they come from. Low-carb diets usually work well for people because they replace sugary drinks and processed snack foods with salads and shit. Whole foods are healthy.Quote:
Originally Posted by EWG
I'm blown away you can get by on 2,800 kcal/day.Quote:
Originally Posted by climberevan
Thanks, DTM for the Huberman recs. Need to start listening to those!
If you like simple rules and are interested in the lower-carb structure, you might like this. I’m not advocating low-carb as the way to go, but if that’s what you’re interested in, you might like his structure. I don’t do it - and I’m sure the collective has an opinion on it - but it seems like a decent baseline. Then you could supplement with a few select carbs (see below):Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian
https://mtntactical.com/knowledge/nu...al-guidelines/
That being said, I do think the mention of Zach Bitter is apt. I don’t think it’s on his website/blog anymore - I searched - but previously his blog explained how he leverages more carbs in his low carb diet. The gist of it was that he didn’t hesitate to add sweet potatoes during 1) big training blocks and 2) ahead of interval workouts (where carbs/gluocse are especially critical for high HR activities, from what I understand). So, I think that’s a reasonable thing to consider if you do end up going low-ish carb.
I don't have a suggestion for a trainer-desk setup but I did buy an adjustable standing desk - the Fully brand - at the beginning of COVID and it was totally worth the $600. Love being able to adjust it throughout the day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian
Also, FWIW, when I’m working from home I set my alarm to go off every ~60mins and I’ll do some push ups, walk the stairs, and/or other movements. DTM had some good thoughts too in the Leg Extensions training thread (in Tech Talk, iirc).
Interesting stuff, Bean. Any thoughts or studies on why the higher carb diet could help with getting a few pounds off? I agree on endurance performance maximization, but I haven’t considered more carbs helping to get the last few pounds off. I also there are studies that show that frequently low glucose levels are correlated to increased running injuries - and I assume cycling would be similar, though to a lesser extent - so that is another good reason for carbs.Quote:
Originally Posted by bean
...especially at 15-20 hours of riding a week (based on Strava). I would be so hangry no one would want to be around me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
Agreed on the first paragraph.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
That's just the regular meals part and i left some stuff out that has zero protein bc I was just curious about the protein part after bean's skepticism. Remember that I'm "fueling the work" separately. That could mean another 1-3000 kCal depending on the workout.
Also your pecs alone probably demand 500 kC. I don't have that problem.
1.6g/kg for a vegetarian is legitimately great especially since much of it is from dairy, even though plant-sourced protein is less bioavailable than animal-sourced protein. Adding the whey will be great.Quote:
Originally Posted by climberevan
It's not the addition of carbs so much as the removal of fat from the diet. The vast majority of fat on our bodies is stored dietary fat, for de novo lipogenesis (i.e. making new fat out of carbs) to happen you have to fill your carb stores and then keep eating more carbs. For most people this is >400g/day of carbs assuming zero physical activity. The low-fat bodybuilder diets work because you aren't eating enough fat to store. I get the feeling that low-glycogen/injury association is confounded by training volume but would be interested in seeing more. Even when doing low-carb I'm all about adding carbs near training.Quote:
Originally Posted by fool
Because he's 140lb in which case 2800kcal is a lot of food.Quote:
...especially at 15-20 hours of riding a week (based on Strava). I would be so hangry no one would want to be around me.
I'd be arrested for murder for more than a few days w/o coffee w/in 30 minutes of waking up. On a whim mostly w/ no real research started intermittent fasting 16 hours most days (7pm-11am). Read a few things about it, but black coffee and water until 11ish hasn't been as bad as I thought. Generally do lunch exercise routine so eat a banana/carb ~30 min before, though have done a few kid/easy ski days fasted and hasn't been too bad. Goal is mostly just keeping winter weight in check, may start some fasted endurance breakfast rides come spring for some fat fueling. Not training for anything these days, so mostly just keeping active and letting rest days occur when they naturally play out. So probably active 5 days a week on zwift/outside MTB/xc ski/alpine ski, sometimes 30-45 ride + weeknight ski as well.
For the more educated any good materials to dive in on intermittent fasting for endurance sports? Also if this is total BS would be curious as well.
This is one of those things that's hard to measure. Most studies come up with little to no measurable impact from IF, fasted endurance training, etc., my take is it's due to carbs being so typically important to performance that the effect sizes are crushed when looking at power output. One thing they have consistently measured is increased fat oxidation during exercise in people who do fasted training. IMO the benefit is in being able to go without food on long efforts, and having a mentally easier time with it, rather than improved watts or other raw performance measures. And of course doing lots of fasted base training means that you're getting more base training in, which can be hard for a lot of people (like myself) to motivate to do despite it being important to performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by VTskibum
Yeah, most active people will need more than us wee folk. An interesting data point: 2 weeks ago I did a biggish ride with 10k' climbing with a buddy who weighs 86kg/190#. So 22kg more than I weigh. His bike is similar, and he's also using a power meter so the calorie count is pretty accurate.Quote:
Originally Posted by bean
He burned 5335kCal and I burned 3453 kCal on the ride, so nearly 2000 kCal more required for the same 6h ride. We were both stuffing our faces, but there's always a deficit. It's a big part of the reason that even world class athletes can't really go very hard over super long efforts: eventually the gut just can't digest enough to keep up.
But back to WG's question: how does he get rid of his lingering belly? It doesn't sound like just adding 5h of training is in the cards, so my vote is that he should do the following.
1: try to eat a little more carby, mostly veg (primarily for the lower dietary fat that goes with this change, as bean noted)
2: try to get up and do some calisthenics at least every 45 mins during his bouts of desk work
3: (IMO the most important) eliminate worthless calories in the form of Noosa, bourbon, beer, or whatever, especially late in the day. I think this step alone would do it over the course of a couple of months.
Huberman has a whole episode on IF/time-restricted eating that is, of course, excellent. Also check out the work of Satchin Panda.Quote:
Originally Posted by VTskibum
The benefits to general health are unequivocal at this point. For endurance performance it's less clear. Pickles has posted in this thread that fasted training doesn't seem to have clear benefits and if anything workout quality suffers, on average. If there are performance benefits they're at ultra distances.
Fair, and I pretty much agree on the fasted workout usefulness (or not), but I've always assumed it would help with the transition away from carb burning at easier effort levels (see uphill athlete theories) cause you wouldn't have any carbs to actually burn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
Thanks will have to check those sources out. Generally w/o any more racing in my future, suppose general health really is the primary goal, side benefit of not becoming a fatass w/ nothing to train for.
I got to a decently high level in regional elite/open XC racing, had I taken my diet as seriously as actual training I mighta gone all the way, ok maybe not but got out of it what I put in.... aka 80% effort.
Thanks, bean - that makes sense.
I lol’d. And makes more sense on your calories.Quote:
Originally Posted by climberevan
Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
Yeah gotta quit the sweet yogurts 100%
Two mornings ago I woke up and did 45 mins of fasted Z2 on the trainer and then had my coffee + climberevan's oatmeal recipe afterwards. The first 10-20 minutes on the bike were tough. I was groggy and hungry, but then it felt pretty damn good.
Does lying in bed staring at my phone count for morning time before coffee, or do I actually need to be walking around trying not to stub my toe or put my pants on backwards before coffee?
Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
Bro. HummingbirdsQuote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian
https://youtu.be/tuNls3mnsDM
This thread is kind of crazy.
Acknowledging that I’m way out of my league here… But don’t overcomplicate something simple. If WG is sticking to this type of workout:Quote:
Originally Posted by climberevan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian
You don’t see anything lacking? Could add about 7 more ab isolating exercises in there for a routine of 15-20 minutes. Do it a couple times a week and and there will be no belly fat to speak of come bike season.
Spot-reduction of fat doesn't happen, a bunch of direct ab work can slightly embiggen abs but definition is all done through overall bodyfat loss and getting lean.Quote:
Originally Posted by east or bust
This. Also, FWIW, except for some occasional ab wheel rollouts I basically don't do any ab-specific work.Quote:
Originally Posted by bean
I figured bean and DTM would cover it, and they did. Everyone has abs--they are just hiding under a "blanket" in some cases.
I'm no Enduro racer, but WG's list seems like a lot. Is it so much that it takes away from actual riding time? Is that typical for downhill-focused training? Anyway, I'm mostly focused on going UPhill fast and going for a really long time.
Whiteroom, are you taking beta alanine? Modest fat loss is one of it's consistent effects, and it's awesome all-around.
I got the impression he wasn't necessarily doing all of that every workout.Quote:
Originally Posted by climberevan
Question for the hard core numbers geeks: is it appropriate to apply some kind of correction to TSS for rides undertaken at lower altitude than normal? My threshold power is set to what testing indicates it is at my normal altitudes of 5-7000'. When I travel to the warmer lowlands to ride, I can crank out significantly higher power, so my TSS gets sort of ridiculous. Did I really get 475 points yesterday and feel fine today? That seems way off.
I've heard mention of one being able to do more muscular damage at lower altitudes, so perhaps the TSS is correct. Anyway, thoughts are welcome.
Beta Alanine + wool shirt = 10-15 minute super tingle. I can’t say I like it, but I am getting used to it.
Are you guys taking Beta Alanine as a pre-workout supplement? Powder or capsules?
I've tried it as pre-work out thing because I ended up with some free powder. I def got the tingles and maybe some benefits for short efforts but I didn't think it helped for the kind of long stuff I'm into. For something like a criterium or XCO or Enduro race, maybe it would be good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutter
BA needs to be taken daily to really reap the benefits. It takes up to four weeks to fully saturate your carnosine stores. Powder form is best since it's inherently cheaper and the dosages required (3-6 g/day) equate to a lot of capsules.
In the literature the performance benefits are limited to the 60-240 second effort range. But, I found that it made extended efforts at your limit, like a long steep shitfuck fire road climb, to be noticeably less miserable. It won't make you faster on those efforts than your fitness would otherwise allow, but it does seem to reduce the suffering involved and allow you to ride at that intensity for longer.
I also spontaneously lost 2-3% body fat when I started taking it which didn't suck (this is consistently observed in the literature), and I swear it's helped my alpine skiing fitness. I ran out around the end of the year and didn't re-up for about two weeks. Toward the end of that period I was definitely starting to notice more thigh burn skiing and that reversed when I started back up.
I asked Pickles (PhD physiologist) last summer if there were any plausible physiological mechanisms through which taking BA long-term could be unhealthy and he couldn't really come up with any. Maybe, possibly via it's competition with taurine uptake, but that is unlikely if your diet isn't already low in taurine and even then just stopping for a week every 1-2 months should prevent any possible issue. High-dose BA supplementation in rodents extends healthspan and median lifespan (but not maximum lifespan). There's no way to know if that translates to humans, but it is strongly indicative that BA supplementation is safe in mammals generally.
skiing hard for a spurt usually falls into that 60-240 second range of peak effort. Makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
For sure, it's right in line with the research. I've just never seen BA discussed as a performance enhancer for alpine skiing.
I try to remember to increase my threshold watts ~6% when I go down from Boulder to sea level. A couple days here or there won't make much of a difference, but a week of riding can make your TSB / CTL / ATL etc. all wonky.Quote:
Originally Posted by climberevan
As a rough estimate, you can assume a 1% loss of threshold for everything 1,000ft up to 5k.
From 5k and up, I account for 2% per 1,000.
This is a ballpark number that easy to remember and calculate in your head- but it isn't 100% accurate.
In theory, it holds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
Beta-alanine supplementation leads to higher carnosine concentrations
Increase carnosine increases intra-muscular buffering.
Therefore, beta-alanine ought to benefit any activity that has muscle acidosis as a limiting factor, alpine skiing included.
It also can improve performance in things like marathon mountain biking, which most people would write off as it's an event that longer than what is suggested (60-240).
This is because most research is done at a steady-state "time to exhaustion". BA may not be correlated with increased performance in long, steady, events as they are not limited by acidosis (more likely CHO availability, Core Temp, etc.).
However in real-world racing, even events that last 6 hours and have relatively low average workloads, there are segments of hard riding at or above threshold which means that local acidosis can be limiting and BA supplementation can be helpful.