yeahman is just tossing out the same straw man shit he always does in this thread.
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yeahman is just tossing out the same straw man shit he always does in this thread.
Why should they be compensated? The ranchers that suffer loss from wolves aren’t really contributing much beef for the market. Most, like nearly all, beef is produced on private pasture lands and feedlots that are at zero risk of wolf depredation. That’s like saying that I should be compensated by the government if my house burns down in a wildfire. Assumed risk.Quote:
Originally Posted by DBdude
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What I learned in 15 years in the PNW and trips to north California is that multi generational western families believe that public land is for their benefit. Many are good stewards of the land. Some folks not working the land but with generational ties see recreation and grazing rights as their sole purview from an early 20th century attitude. That I as a Seattleite or urban resident would have a say on practices on Federal lands is incomprehensible.
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Running cattle on rangeland in the inter mountain West isn’t compatible with being a good steward of the land. Cattle destroy natural range. Full stop. Get out and see for yourself. Same with sheep.
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I agree
Their hooves kill high dessert range and they shit in water holes and streams. Devastate river banks where they water and over graze
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Yup, my understanding is the private carriers take some of the risk, and USDA re-insures the carriers for excess losses. Nothing wrong with that in my view, as long as USDA is getting sufficient premium income to at least offset their long-term loss experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by skaredshtles
Maybe conundrum can elucidate
And whoever upthread mentioned the Farm Bill…yeah, a giant farmer welfare program with the SNAP program tied on. So farm state legislators hold the SNAP program hostage to squeeze out more benefits for themselves.
All absolutely true. I’ve read that only about 2% of beef cattle production comes from public land.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn
The reimbursement plan was to get ranchers to stop killing the animals. Not much risk to shoot & shut up.
Easiest answer is to close off public land to private grazing leases. But the legislators in the inter mountain west would make sure that doesn’t happen.
They put down a bison the other day. 2 black wolves having dinner.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...88323a1c64.jpg
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Wolves are rad
That’s pretty cool. How many in the pack?Quote:
Originally Posted by byates1
They say a dozen or so. Will find out more later today
Where is the data showingthe vast majority of depredation is occurring on public land???
I don’t know and I don’t think that the vast majority occurs on public lands. Some probably occurs on private land adjacent to public land. It doesn’t matter, having predators kill your stock is part of the price of doing business on range raised beef in the West. You shouldn’t be reimbursed for wolf kill and you shouldn’t be able to kill wolves.Quote:
Originally Posted by summit
Think of it this way, around here a lot of the orchard land has loss due to mule deer moving into orchards at night. Should the orchardists be compensated for the loss and be able to kill deer out of season?
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Real men with memes like that have wolf hybrids as pets. They are not out in the woods living with undomesticated wild animals.
Really?
Chino Flannel and his eunuch malusky Cody having a moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by liv2ski
I envision a wolf just clamping onto his face and shaking it offa the skull.
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On a side note: the reintroduction of wolves into YNP in the 90's was not ideal. Into the Park made sense but just handicapped the wolves as soon as they recovered. Surrounded by ranches and open land. They were destined to hit a distance where they'd be unprotected. InWY, those boundaries are tight to the Park. In another state, it might've worked out differently as far as the given approach today. Reintro was a good idea, poorly implemented tho.
I don't know a lot of wolves that would let man bun man put a leash on them as pictured. But then again, I don't know a lot of wolves. Maybe I'm the idiot.Quote:
Originally Posted by plugboots
Who knows... https://www.reddit.com/r/aww/comment...lfdog_cana_we/
When I was in Africa a few weeks ago, I was walking up and snuggling with lions. It was fun.
Not everyone gets to do that. Maybe we should introduce them into YNP, The Church, and Colorado.Quote:
Originally Posted by plugboots
I had a wolf hybrid (Siberian) from a pup. Rescue from a puppy mill in the slocan. Just over 110lbs full grown. No one, and I repeat, no one approached that animal without its permission but me. Those piercing yellow eyes along with some very subtle body language, and its intent was very clear to any sober person. Pre-teen and younger kids’ less ideal approach behaviour was tolerated though (thankfully). Amazing animal to have in the deep woods. Not so good around town. Liked to sit on the roof of my truck while I was shopping (busted my sunroof) and would start to howl if I took too long returning.
We had a wolf cross that we adopted from the refuge I volunteered at. Merlin topped out at 105. He was not an alpha so I never worried about him being aggressive, but he definitely didn't act like a domestic cannine. He was awesome with my wife and I and our husky.Quote:
Originally Posted by BCMtnHound
Got really nervous we anyone came into our house. He'd go up in the loft until they left.
He was great to have on the bed at night in the winter.
My friends neighbor had a wolf, not hybrid. That thing was scary. They had a 12’ fence around the house and yard. When you came up the shared driveway it would look away and walk away from the fence. Whenever you turned around it was right there at the fence staring at you, then it would turn when it noticed you were aware of it. No sound, even when walking.
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I'd like to think the wolf sneezed in that guys face right after the picture was taken.
Jesus Christo! That is an intense dog.Quote:
Originally Posted by BCMtnHound
I lived with a wolf/husky mix for a year or two. It was my roommates dog. That thing would pace and pace and pace and pace. Often it would nip you in the calf and slink away, just to fuck with you. It would escape the yard by ramming the wood fence with its head until it broke and then would squeeze through the hole it made. I don't know how to explain a wolf hybrid exactly but to me it was this intense, intimidating and intelligent kinda punk-rock dog that took a LOT of daily work to gain its respect.
My experience with Kane, and a couple of other hybrids and pure bloods, have been very rewarding experiences. These creatures have intelligent self interest, but are completely devoted to the pack. Your intentions must be true to your actions, or they will not trust you. You can train them in basic commands (begrudgingly), but if the intent of the direction is not in the pack’s best interest, they will lose respect for your authority. They have an amazing capacity for humour, which if not appreciated, or at least accepted, will result in resentment. They do not forget or forgive, and will never succumb to being a ‘pet’. And you better give them an opportunity to constructively run and hunt, or they will find a way to satisfy that urge on their own. Not an easy relationship to foster and I will never again seek it, but am very grateful for the opportunity to learn from it.
Rad, extremely rad. You and powder ho are extremely fortunate. What amazing animals.Quote:
Originally Posted by BCMtnHound
Then why are you going on and on about public land ranchers as though they are relevant to the conversation if most of the depredation is not on public lands?Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn
If the deer were extirpated from the entire region and were reintroduced, then yes, there would need to be a compensation fun or funds for fencing with allowances for killing of nuisance deer.Quote:
It doesn’t matter, having predators kill your stock is part of the price of doing business on range raised beef in the West. You shouldn’t be reimbursed for wolf kill and you shouldn’t be able to kill wolves.
Think of it this way, around here a lot of the orchard land has loss due to mule deer moving into orchards at night. Should the orchardists be compensated for the loss and be able to kill deer out of season?
Historically, deer would be harvested if eating crops.
Historically, wolves were extirpated for eating livestock.
I love wolves. I signed the Yellowstone petition as a youth. My family name comes from Wolves and my family has much wolf art and traditionally gives stuffed wolves to babes. They ranch, but private lands in the plains, and wolves historically ranged there, though before my family's time.
I’m sure you are aware that there is a lot of private rangeland in the inter mountain west. I don’t really see why that would make a difference for compensation. Just because we killed wolves before doesn’t really matter, times change.Quote:
Originally Posted by summit
Is your opinion supposed to matter more because you proclaim your love of wolves and your family ranches?
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Colorado already has a program for that, although it doesn't permit land owners to shoot game out of season. But here in CO if you have over a certain amount of acreage you are guaranteed private-land tags to use or sell. Game Damage ProgramQuote:
Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn
We have a similar program in WA. I don’t think the orchardists should be compensated either. The only ones it really impacts are the ones trying to grow in the wild lands interface. Most of the fruit that goes to market comes out of the Columbia Basin where ungulate damage is insignificant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn
thats what happens upstate… corn farmers can get nuisance permits for deer depredatin’ their corn. shoot ‘em when ever they want.
https://dec.ny.gov/nature/animals-fi...damage-permits
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conundrum
wtf high content wolfdog?
White tail are just a little more abundant in NY than mule deer in WA.Quote:
Originally Posted by m2711c
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My point is if the government is introducing an aesthetic policy that has a stochastic negative impact on private business while also limiting business ability to mitigate, then the government should compensate. My point is also the public rangeland argument is a convenient cudgel to beat up on ranchers with that is actually mostly a nonsequitor.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn
My personal background was just a my-card-on-the-table so my arguments are seen as genuine rather than agenda driven.
Evasive little creatures, those whitetails.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn
Waskily whitetail.
And whitetail are tasty. Save the crop and fill the freezer with organic lean protein. Win win in my books. The chronic wasting disease moving north from montana and idaho is trouble however.
ETA: there was a program here that if deer or moose was incidentally taken (accidental hunt, crop protection, or euthanized due to vehicle incident), that you would be authorized to dress the animal to the degree to prevent spoilage, notify the Conservation Officer, and the meat would go to the cutter and donated to the food bank/social programs. Not sure if that is still active, but always thought that was a great idea. Mushers up north also had an agreement with the COS and DOT to recover road kill for their sled dogs.
A similar program exists in Colorado except that private individuals can keep the harvest. Basically just call the a state Parks & Wildlife office within 48hr of the incident and you're all good.Quote:
Originally Posted by BCMtnHound