Solitude Expansion...

I was having this same argument with my dad recently. I really think it is hilarious that people who are always arguing in favor of lifts to everywhere play the elitist card and yet have never once in their life had the experience of earning their turns. Then they tell you that you should just suck it up and have to ski crap hardpack and moguls with thousands of other people and pay the better part of 100 dollars for it and for a quality of experience that is 1/10th of what you are used to. They want to tell you that it's for the greater public good and all that shit which is an obviously flawed argument as has been demonstrated numerous times in this thread.

It's just really sad is all, If only most of those folks knew how easy it is to skin and how many options you have each day that won't put you in danger of losing your life. That's all I'm saying, it sucks for those knocking it who haven't tried it, and it sucks for you that you need a lift to make every turn that you see fit to make. I sincerely hope that you guys just once in your life can have a day that makes you think twice about your attitudes about quantity over quality.

Not really trying to insult or attack anyone, all I am arguing in favor of is to have the OPTION to travel uphill under my own power to ski how I see fit on REASONABLY ACCESSIBLE public lands. Be careful what you wish for down there.

1) If I'm wearing a bunch of clunky safety-rescue equipment in order to go skiing, it's already not a good day.

2) I have skied powder, lots and lots of powder. I'll still take 10 runs on steep styrofoam or decent bumps over 2 hours of xc skiing and 1 run in pow.

3) Nobody ever told you that you have to ski anything. What I said way way back in this thread is that if you want to get away from lifts it's not hard...you know where they are. If there's a lift in silver fork nobody is going to force you to ski there and only there.

4) Not everyone is like you. Posting that you just wish people were like you so they could like what you like and that it sucks to be anybody who doesn't think like you....fucking lame bro.
Let me try it on you and see how it feels on your end:

It's just really sad is all, If only most of those folks knew how easy it is to ski bumps and how many options you have each day to find good snow inbounds. That's all I'm saying, it sucks for those knocking it who haven't put the miles in to acquire the skill it takes, and it sucks for you that you need to XC ski to get to hero snow to enjoy skiing. I sincerely hope that you guys just once in your life can have a day where you get 20 long really super high quality runs in instead of a handful.

not cool really...

It's just really sad is all, If only most of those folks knew how easy it is to go to church and how many options you have each day to find salvation in Jesus. That's all I'm saying, it sucks for those knocking it who haven't prayed in church, and it sucks for you that you need to drink and fornicate to have fun. I sincerely hope that you guys just once in your life can have the peace of God in your life.


It's just really sad is all, If only most of those folks knew how easy it is to go down to the ocean and how many options you have each day to find really good waves. That's all I'm saying, it sucks for those knocking it who haven't tried it, and it sucks for you that you need to sit around town doing nothing when you could be surfing. I sincerely hope that you guys just once in your life can have a day that makes you think twice about the ocean.


It's just really sad is all, If only most of those folks knew how easy it is to make money as a gay prostitute and how many options you have each day to roll in the money. That's all I'm saying, it sucks for those knocking it who haven't tried it, and it sucks for you that you need to go to some real job. I sincerely hope that you guys just once in your life can have a day where you make a thousand dollars giving handjobs in an alley.

It's just really sad is all, If only most of those folks knew how easy it is to get to heaven with 77 virgins and how many options you have each day to become a martyr for allah. That's all I'm saying, it sucks for those knocking it who haven't studied the koran, and it sucks for you that you need to keep living when you could be in heaven with all that virgin poon. I sincerely hope that you guys just once in your life can have a day where you really understand what islam is all about.

:rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YetiMan

:rolleyes: okdude... :rolleyes:

http://www.holidayvacationrental.com...C%20Skiing.jpg

---

Why do you put down xc skiing? Several times in this thread you used the term "cross-country skiing" to describe skinning, and used the term in a way that implied xc skiing was synonymous with "lame". Isn't that sort of elitist? Do you think that xc skiers don't ski steep bump lines just because they lack the skills to do so? Maybe they just don't want to risk fucking up their knees. Maybe they really enjoy the glide and the cardiovascular work out.

I think you've had a good open mind in this discussion, for the most part. But I think it's funny that those who claim backcountry skiers are elitist and think their better than everyone else have another group of skiers they clearly look down on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by skiski

Why do you put down xc skiing? Several times in this thread you used the term "cross-country skiing" to describe skinning, and used the term in a way that implied xc skiing was synonymous with "lame".

---

Yeah, I'm not into XC. I was raised on nordic skiing. Nowadays if I want to go for a walk I just go for a walk instead of going to some place and putting on a bunch of gear to go for a walk on snow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by skiski

Isn't that sort of elitist?

---

Not after I spent a good deal of time explaining that I don't think a person's choice of recreation is a good way to judge a person's worth. For example, that guy in the photo. I think he looks like a fool at that moment, but who hasn't looked like a fool, and what's to say he's not a great guy. Determining what's elite in terms of different sports is totally subjective, relative and almost meaningless. They think our sport is dumb, we think theirs is dumb, who fucking cares.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by skiski

Do you think that xc skiers don't ski steep bump lines just because they lack the skills to do so? Maybe they just don't want to risk fucking up their knees.

---

I just think people like what they like. What kind of skiing you do doesn't really determine how manly you are. If Shredgar wants to imply I'm queer because I like chairlifts, I'm going to post some nordic skier in gayish stretch pants because what kind of skiing you do isn't a function of how macho you are (when I posted it I didn't really think it needed a big explanation, but I guess I was wrong). If you nordic ski solo across greenland or you alpine ski the hahnenkamm off chairlifts or you A/T timpanogos or superior or whatever...that's muy macho: not just putting the gear on and doing the sport. That's how this works imho.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by skiski

Maybe they really enjoy the glide and the cardiovascular work out.

---

well that's very richard simmons of them.

So, what's elite about bc skiing in Silver Fork?
Little children are doing it as has been posted several times.
Yetiman just wants a new bump run?

yeah. that's what the 20 pages of writing was: my epic swan song to bumping up the backcountry.

Parley's Canyon/Snyderville Basin has 3 f'in HUGE ski areas covered top to bottom with runs. DV and the Canyons are expanding every other year.

LCC has 2 f'in HUGE ski areas covered top to bottom with runs (closer to SLC than S'tude, by the way), they've expanded, most recently into Mineral Basin, built a tunnel to get there, have a tram tower you can see from the valley (and, shit, the front side of the Bird was BC less than 40 years ago), blah, blah, blah.

It sounds to me like a lot of folks here are singling out BCC for the only canyon NOT allowed to have ski area expansion. Like I said earlier in this thread, put the lift in, let S'tude do avy control, watch SF get - maybe - 10-20% tracked out (like Honeycomb does now) and go do AT there also.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bl2000

It sounds to me like a lot of folks here are singling out BCC for the only canyon NOT allowed to have ski area expansion. Like I said earlier in this thread, put the lift in, let S'tude do avy control, watch SF get - maybe - 10-20% tracked out (like Honeycomb does now) and go do AT there also.

---

Yeah right.

What the fuck are you smoking? Do you even ski tour? Have you ever been in the Wasatch on a sunny, bluebird saturday?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trackhead

Yeah right.

What the fuck are you smoking?

---

I'm not smoking anything. :cool: Duh, that MUST be my problem.

So have you ever skied in SF?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trackhead

Yeah right.

What the fuck are you smoking? Do you even ski tour? Have you ever been in the Wasatch on a sunny, bluebird saturday?

---

He's from the Garden State. :rolleyes:

Yeti posts many words in this thread.

Many are right on.

I live far away and don't "earn my turns."

Just peeing on the rock -- as it were.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JTrue

He's from the Garden State. :rolleyes:

---

Oh right; I'm from NJ so that must mean I haven't ever skied in the Wasatch. Wow, am I b-u-s-t-e-d!

Except maybe the year I bummed working at the Cliff Lodge. Or the year I bummed working at the EE. And we went over to Deer Valley to go XC skiing because DV wasn't even built then. So go ahead and tell me that I don't know what it's like to see the BC become a resort.

But, you MUST be right, all knowing Maggot. I'm from the Garden State. I haven't been there in a long time. Oh wait. Wait a minute. Was that Solitude I was at last Saturday and Sunday skiing all f'in day and watching folks flounder around in the quicksand all day Sunday? Or maybe the week before when I shucked the kind-of-east-like groomers on the lower mountain? Sandwiched around a hike last Friday up Mill D and definitely NOT ready for skiing (although I did see some XC and snowshoe tracks in the crunch.)

Yeah, it sucks living in the EC (since 1980 for f*cks sake), so I try to get there at least once a year during the winter. Now, I'm aiming for 3 trips a winter.

Oh, and yes, I do AT. Not well, frankly, because I just don't have the lungs for much uphill. I'm sure not as good as you hard core Gnarly Gnar Gnars.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bl2000

Oh right; I'm from NJ so that must mean I haven't ever skied in the Wasatch. Wow, am I b-u-s-t-e-d!
And we went over to Deer Valley to go XC skiing because DV wasn't even built then. So go ahead and tell me that I don't know what it's like to see the BC become a resort.

---

Didja hafta sneak in up the gully cuz the grounds keeper wasn't user friendly?
That was "Gnarly Gnar Gnars"!!!

tag: butthurt2000

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bl2000

Oh, and yes, I do AT. Not well, frankly, because I just don't have the lungs for much uphill. I'm sure not as good as you hard core Gnarly Gnar Gnars.

---

So the answer is no, you don't tour enough in the Wasatch to know how quickly us Gnar Gnars track stuff out on sunny saturday's.

Next......

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bl2000

Oh right; I'm from NJ so that must mean I haven't ever skied in the Wasatch. Wow, am I b-u-s-t-e-d!

Except maybe the year I bummed working at the Cliff Lodge. Or the year I bummed working at the EE. And we went over to Deer Valley to go XC skiing because DV wasn't even built then. So go ahead and tell me that I don't know what it's like to see the BC become a resort.

But, you MUST be right, all knowing Maggot. I'm from the Garden State. I haven't been there in a long time. Oh wait. Wait a minute. Was that Solitude I was at last Saturday and Sunday skiing all f'in day and watching folks flounder around in the quicksand all day Sunday? Or maybe the week before when I shucked the kind-of-east-like groomers on the lower mountain? Sandwiched around a hike last Friday up Mill D and definitely NOT ready for skiing (although I did see some XC and snowshoe tracks in the crunch.)

Yeah, it sucks living in the EC (since 1980 for f*cks sake), so I try to get there at least once a year during the winter. Now, I'm aiming for 3 trips a winter.

Oh, and yes, I do AT. Not well, frankly, because I just don't have the lungs for much uphill. I'm sure not as good as you hard core Gnarly Gnar Gnars.

---

Hey fuckstick, that was exactly the response I was hoping for. :FIREdevil

Btw, I'm originally from Upstate NY, nice to meet you. Crap

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trackhead

So the answer is no, you don't tour enough in the Wasatch to know how quickly us Gnar Gnars track stuff out on sunny saturday's.

Next......

---

We're all just other tax payers who get told what to do by the extremo gnarcore wasatch tourers.

move to the fucking wilderness fag.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

We're all just other tax payers who get told what to do by the extremo gnarcore wasatch tourers.

move to the fucking wilderness fag.

---

Whoa, this aggresion will not stand, man.


now, shut the fuck up and do as we say:rolleyes2

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by My Pet Powder Goat

now, shut the fuck up and do as we say

---

I'm already a whiny cunt, what next?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

We're all just other tax payers who get told what to do by the extremo gnarcore wasatch tourers.

move to the fucking wilderness fag.

---

Well, I'd rather keep public land public, than have Solitude, a private company, bastardize it for their own profits. How would you feel about it if Dick Cheney was going to drill for oil in your local playground, but by doing so, you wouldn't be able to use it anymore?

It's funny to watch posters in this thread with their fragile egos use terms like Gnar Gnar, elitist, extremo gnarcore, etc. Please try not to get your vagina all bruised up over it.

Bottom line: They're all just jealous because they are too lazy and too lacking in imagination to ever do anything but ride a lift to their mostly shitty skiing. I know it also sucks to see beautiful tracks and sick lines in the mountains beyond the resort when you're skiing chunder fuck crud with a bunch of sheeple by noon. Sucks for them, I know it must get pretty boring when those are the limitations you insist on placing on yourself.

Wow, where to begin?

If I was in the USFS, I'd think the attitudes here don't make BC skiers even sound worthy of preserving their stashes. When did touring skiers become such pricks? FWIW, I agree with John Muir's view: "Not blind opposition to progress,but opposition to blind progress..." You can interpret that however you want to, but I think it's relevant here.

Goat: You tagged me butthurt, then said the aggression will not stand. WTF?

JTrue: I'm glad you got the answer you were hoping for. Whatever that means. BTW, I'm originally from southern California.

Trackhead: I've been up into the trees on the shadow (east) side of SF and the open bowl/chutes (west) on whatever day it made sense, so I don't know whether things get tracked out on Saturday or what. (I go out to Utah on vacations, remember?) Shit, the times I've been into SF, there were SOME tracks but I wouldn't say it was chopped up. Maybe we have different definitions of tracked out. I don't think even Honeycomb Canyon gets tracked out most of the time, even with the access from the summit and the return lift. I never have problems finding fresh or spoon-able tracks in there long after a storm if I traverse out far enough.

WRA: I see what you're driving for. Anyway, I don't remember a groundskeeper, just that we parked at the top of PC and skied in. It wasn't gnar, it was just fun. (If you're trying to out me, here's some trivia: I lived part of that winter in one of 3 or 4 houses just north of the main PC parking lot and almost next to the miner's hostel. One of the houses was actually a bar. Same era as you're talking about?)

Have a nice day. Oh, and save the whales.

bl2000,

It's PUBLIC land, not private land. Why wouldn't we be upset at losing the opportunity to use our PUBLIC land to what is a PRIVATE company. If Solitude gets lifts in SF, the public loses. We can't ski there anymore, Utah ski areas on public land don't allow uphill traffic, and I don't want to skin at a place that used to be free of lifts.

PUBLIC LAND becoming privatized. That's the issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trackhead

bl2000,

It's PUBLIC land, not private land. Why wouldn't we be upset at losing the opportunity to use our PUBLIC land to what is a PRIVATE company. If Solitude gets lifts in SF, the public loses. We can't ski there anymore, Utah ski areas on public land don't allow uphill traffic, and I don't want to skin at a place that used to be free of lifts.

PUBLIC LAND becoming privatized. That's the issue.

---

That's a fair point. And, shit, I understand people being upset. That's a lot different than the personal attacks for people having differences of opinions.

Personally (and we're all speaking from our own biases, right?), I would rather continue to have public access plus allow a lift go in. That's all. I'd want to be able to take advantage of both opportunities. An agreement could be made between the USFS and Solitude to allow that. And I really don't believe it would get tracked out, based on what my own eyes and feet tell me about Solitude. Alta gets tracked out. Snowbird gets tracked out. IMO Solitude doesn't get tracked out. Which is a large part of the reason why I like to ski there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bl2000

Personally (and we're all speaking from our own biases, right?), I would rather continue to have public access plus allow a lift go in. That's all. I'd want to be able to take advantage of both opportunities. An agreement could be made between the USFS and Solitude to allow that. And I really don't believe it would get tracked out, based on what my own eyes and feet tell me about Solitude. Alta gets tracked out. Snowbird gets tracked out. IMO Solitude doesn't get tracked out. Which is a large part of the reason why I like to ski there.

---

If Solitude gets a lift there, it will be on their terms, there will be no clause for ski touring. I don't know anybody I ski with that would want to tour there anymore if a lift went in. Most of the people I tour with do so to make an effort to see less people, and doing so in a drainage with a lift doesn't work.

When is enough, enough?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trackhead

When is enough, enough?

---

:fm: 19 pages. :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YetiMan

:fm: 19 pages. :p

---

It'll go to 22 at least.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bl2000

Parley's Canyon/Snyderville Basin has 3 f'in HUGE ski areas covered top to bottom with runs. DV and the Canyons are expanding every other year.

---

Yes, because they bought the land.

Quote:

---

LCC has 2 f'in HUGE ski areas covered top to bottom with runs (closer to SLC than S'tude, by the way), they've expanded, most recently into Mineral Basin, built a tunnel to get there, have a tram tower you can see from the valley (and, shit, the front side of the Bird was BC less than 40 years ago), blah, blah, blah.

---

Yes, because they bought the land.

Quote:

---

It sounds to me like a lot of folks here are singling out BCC for the only canyon NOT allowed to have ski area expansion. Like I said earlier in this thread, put the lift in, let S'tude do avy control, watch SF get - maybe - 10-20% tracked out (like Honeycomb does now) and go do AT there also.

---

No, because they DON'T own the land - the public does. Solitude will be putting in lifts, cutting trails, installing structures and running heavy equipment in an area that is already threatened as a watershed (thus the no dogs policy, which looks like a joke compared to the damage a new lift causes).

As a final insult, although it will still be considered "public land" unless you are paying and going downhill, you are not allowed. No winter hikers, campers, picnickers, skiers, sightseers, etc..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bl2000

Personally (and we're all speaking from our own biases, right?), I would rather continue to have public access plus allow a lift go in. That's all.I'd want to be able to take advantage of both opportunities. An agreement could be made between the USFS and Solitude to allow that.

---

Utah, as a state, does not allow uphill traffic at ski areas.

Quote:

---

And I really don't believe it would get tracked out, based on what my own eyes and feet tell me about Solitude. Alta gets tracked out. Snowbird gets tracked out. IMO Solitude doesn't get tracked out. Which is a large part of the reason why I like to ski there.

---

I agree - as is, Solitude doesn't get tracked out, so WTF do they need more terrain?! It is pure greed in an effort to keep up with all of the other ski areas and comes at the expense of public terrain.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alto

http://doctorbulldog.files.wordpress...n-tear65p1.jpg

---

Don't cry Mr. Native American Bro.
A dwellng has been erected on your land and is serving as the headquarters for SAVE OUR FRESHIES a coalition of gnar gnar slaying powder fiends
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y19...bum/sfb189.jpg
If your in the silly fork hood stop on by for a peace pipe session
Skiing pretty well back there too
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y19...bum/sfb192.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StraightChuter

Utah, as a state, does not allow uphill traffic at ski areas.

I agree - as is, Solitude doesn't get tracked out, so WTF do they need more terrain?! It is pure greed in an effort to keep up with all of the other ski areas and comes at the expense of public terrain.

---

I'm sympathetic with your points--and I am REALLY sympathetic with the idea of preserving wilderness for future generations. I'm just also sympathetic with having some sweet terrain also be lift served and having professional avy control.

I still contend that Honeycomb Return didn't ruin HC. It's probably the lowest impact chair I've ever seen.

A deal could get made where Solitude would have to agree to provide free uphill public access in return for leasing (not necessarily owning) the federal land and putting in a lift. Utah can amend the law (if it's even so black and white, especially with respect to federal land). My point is that a compromise could be made. And Utah can amend the law generally or specifically to suit this situation. That's what legislators get elected and paid to do.

As far as greed, is the position of people who only want access by self-propulsion any less out of self-interest? Greed doesn't only relate to $$$. Moby Thesaurus words for "greed":

acedia, acquisitiveness, anger, autism, avarice, avariciousness,
avaritia, avidity, avidness, careerism, covetousness, crapulence,
crapulency, craving, cupidity, deadly sin, edacity, ego trip,
egotism, envy, frenzy of desire, fury of desire, gluttonousness,
gluttony, grasping, graspingness, greediness, gula, gulosity,
hoggishness, hyperphagia, incontinence, individualism,
inordinate desire, insatiability, insatiable desire, intemperance,
intemperateness, interest, invidia, ira, itching palm, lust,
luxuria, meanness, miserliness, narcissism, niggardliness,
omnivorousness, overeating, overgreediness, overindulgence,
parsimony, penny-pinching, penuriousness, personal aims,
personal ambition, personal desires, personalism, piggishness,
polyphagia, possessiveness, pride, privatism, rapaciousness,
rapacity, ravenousness, remoteness, self-absorption,
self-admiration, self-advancement, self-centeredness,
self-consideration, self-containment, self-devotion, self-esteem,
self-indulgence, self-interest, self-interestedness, self-jealousy,
self-occupation, self-pleasing, self-seeking, self-serving,
self-solicitude, self-sufficiency, selfishness, selfism, sloth,
sordidness, stinginess, superbia, swinish gluttony, swinishness,
voraciousness, voracity, wolfishness, wrath, yearning

WTF is crapulence? Or gula?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bl2000

I still contend that Honeycomb Return didn't ruin HC. It's probably the lowest impact chair I've ever seen.

---

That's because you are seeing it with resort skiers eyes. If you put a golf course, dirt bike track, shooting range or something else in there I'm sure many user groups would consider that a huge improvement over empty land. And, the HC lift and return road certainly impacted free public access to the area during the winter.

Quote:

---

A deal could get made where Solitude would have to agree to provide free uphill public access in return for leasing (not necessarily owning) the federal land and putting in a lift. Utah can amend the law (if it's even so black and white, especially with respect to federal land). My point is that a compromise could be made. And Utah can amend the law generally or specifically to suit this situation. That's what legislators get elected and paid to do.

---

I know you said you lived in Utah at one point, but obviously not long enough to be realistic about the way things work here, as the above suggestions will never happen if the ski resorts don't want it. I've been escorted from ski resorts three times, each time long before the lifts even opened, or at times before the area was even open.

Quote:

---

As far as greed, is the position of people who only want access by self-propulsion any less out of self-interest?

---

Yes, because it does not exclude anyone, nor does it damage the environment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bl2000

I'm just also sympathetic with having some sweet terrain also be lift served and having professional avy control.

---

Professional avy control isn't needed, and is often useless and unreliable. I don't know about you, but I don't need Solitude or Wasatch Powderbird "professionals" bombing shit for me to make it safe.

See the photo, see the bomb hole, no avy until later. WPG has also bombed stuff that slid on their clients later. Remember the tragic Snowbird fatality last year in professionally controlled terrain? How about the Park City fatality in controlled terrain?
http://utahavalanchecenter.org/files...s/PICT0459.JPG

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bl2000

Goat: You tagged me butthurt, then said the aggression will not stand. WTF?

---

Forget it, Donny, you're out of your element!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trackhead

It's funny to watch posters in this thread with their fragile egos use terms like Gnar Gnar, elitist, extremo gnarcore, etc. Please try not to get your vagina all bruised up over it.

---

Surprised you butthurt whiners can laugh

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

Surprised you butthurt whiners can laugh

---

Walter, I love you, but sooner or later, you're going to have to face the fact you're a goddamn moron.

Damn this thread has legs
So does Jessica
http://icelebz.com/celebs/jessica_al...s/photo666.jpg
Damn I'd love to make that butt hurt

AM I WRONG! AM I WRONG!

;)

This isn't Nam Yeti, there are RULES!!!