At least 3 dead, 15 injured after B.C. avalanche

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Originally Posted by gorgeskier

In the midst of what may have been the most terrifying minutes of their lives, they turned their avalanche beacons to search, they got out their probes and their shovels and they started rescue protocols IMMEDIATELY – likely while in a state of shock. They dug out those that were buried, they triaged the injured, they administered first aid, they built fires to keep them warm until the helicopters arrived. These people were heroic!! Without their quick and educated responses, many more people would have died.

...what they aren’t telling you is that there are likely double that number of snowmobilers who DIDN’T attend this year’s event – because of the conditions. Snowmobilers who DID heed the warnings.

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I think it's kind of strange and contradictory to say they're hero's for digging people out quickly, and then immediately mentioning that many people didn't go out because they knew it wasn't safe. I'm not trying to take anything away from a pretty good rescue effort, but it doesn't make you a hero to compitently deal with the reprocutions of really bad decision manking.

It's like she's taking the best aspects of the smart one's who stayed away, and the dumb one's who didn't, and combining them into some stereotypical super-sledder.

tragedy.

my condolences (as useless as they are) to those that lost loved ones, those that were physically injured, and to those that have suffered psychologically.



after reading this thread, the one mentioned above by backcountryislife, and a few media reports some thoughts spring to mind:

1) there is obviously continued antipathy between some skiers and some sledders, with stereotypes being thrown around painting both camps with broadly brushed stokes (e.g. "hippie/stoner skier; sledneck sledder).
there are intelligent people and complete idiots in both groups. this sums it up nicely:

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Originally Posted by JoeStrummer

... one group of ignorant assholes shouldn't make generalized comments about another group of ignorant assholes

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2) it sounds as if the majority of the people there had appropriate avy equipment and responded quickly and efficiently, minimizing further injurys and deaths.

3) some counts from past BISOs put participant/spectator attendence at ~1000, the fact that there were only 200 people is without a doubt better than having 1000 in attendence.
the central question is why those 200 people chose to attend the shootout in the face of such overwhelming evidence that a major slide was quite likely.

4) regarding the denial of some (not all) members of the sledder community. the following very disturbing quotes were taken from: [ame="http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2240832#post2240832"]Revy avalanche - Page 12 - SnoWest Forum[/ame]

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Originally Posted by ~Rowdy~

... This slide was going to happen whether or not this event happened, it just happened to be the same weekend, which drew more people to one location. ...

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Originally Posted by MKlim

... Most sledders including myself have lost people in sledding accidents and avalanches. Some times they are caused by stupidity, but sometimes including this time there is NO other word for what happened except for ACCIDENT. ...

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Originally Posted by MKlim

... If we looked at the Stats we all have much higher risk of being in a serious accident on the highway on the way to sledding then being trapped in a slide. Proven again that is a Freak accident ...

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Originally Posted by Wired1

... mother nature and the nature of mountains and snow is to blame, not the organizers. ...

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Originally Posted by MP_2009

...if the avy wasnt triggered by one guy it would of been triggered by someone else and if it didnt happen then it could of happened another day. ...

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Originally Posted by kane13

... The way i look at it is what happened, happened and everything in life happens for a reason.

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5) i hope that these views are the exception rather than the rule. i think that backcountryislife's comment from the snowest thread is quite apt (and it is my sincere hope that his attitude is typical of snowmachine riders):

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Originally Posted by backcountryislife

I have a lot of empathy & sadness for those that have passed & those that are left behind, I hope their families can move on with the rest of their lives in a positive manner.


On the other hand I am blown away & disgusted by the amount of denial in our community about what happened here. Very few want to admit the amount of negligence that occurred. It think it's shameful & is a disservice to the dead AND more important to those that have survived that people want to dent the reality which is... AN OUTRAGEOUS AMOUNT OF RULES WERE BROKEN HERE. By the riders, by the spectators, but the guy who cut above another rider and on & on... All I see here is poor decision making that needs to be curbed, and if we as a community keep saying that this was "an act of god" or that nobody is at fault, then we look like the morons that the rest of the world thinks we are right now.

I've spent my last couple days fighting this perception on another site, the constant assumption that we're all stupid 2 stroke fueled lackeys seems to be relatively common amongst other bc travelers. Things like this don't help & if people don't start owning up to how we need to CHANGE instead of all the coombayaa bullsh** we'll keep dying, they'll keep being right & the gov't will just have better fuel to regulate us out of the backcountry.


Flame away, I'm the bad guy here.

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Originally Posted by backcountryislife

wow. That's scary.

I thought you Canadia-ans were above the stupid legal BS we play down here in the United Shitbox of America???

From what I keep hearing on the other sites, this wasn't even "the event" anymore anyhow, just stragglers left over from earlier. I'm not sure what to believe, but with the relative few that were there this seems more likely. It also makes sense that there were no film crews filming at the time.

In my head I want to blame the organizer, but I just can't see it legally. I also want to blame the guy who cut above a fellow sledder (rule # 2, right after rule # 1, 1 person at a time on a hill) but again, I just see this creating a horrid precedent.

Those of you on skis should be frightened as well, if this was to take hold, it could have EXTREME ramifications in the backcountry community.

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I am not going to mention any perticular cases but there is a big one that have been in the courts for years involving some backcountry skiers and split-boarders. It seems to be going know where fast.

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Originally Posted by Shorty_J

I think it's kind of strange and contradictory to say they're hero's for digging people out quickly, and then immediately mentioning that many people didn't go out because they knew it wasn't safe.

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Do keep in mind that when you look at the layout of the hill/bench, not EVERYBODY was sitting right in the slide path. Out of the 200 only 40-60 were hit, some of the people were maybe still not in a perfect location, but more relatively safe & better positioned considering the terrain.

I'm honestly not sure of how many were buried, from what I understand somewhere from 10-15 were dug out. If you've ever done any multiple burial scenarios (I sure as hell hope most all of you have) you understand the seriousness & difficulty of rescuing that many people. Heros? Hmm, I don't know. People who did a lot of things right after allowing something VERY serious to be done wrong, definitely. Scale aside, if you've ever been in a slide situation (been there a couple times with other groups that I saw) you'll see how hard it is to keep people's heads on straight.

I'm not saying they're a bunch of the best bc travelers out there, but I am saying that SOME credit needs to be given that they did as well as they did to get that many people to work together & rescue the rest of the group.


I'm curious to find out, after it all comes out, what kind of part avalanche packs played in this situation to keep some of these people alive as well.

It is my understanding from some light reading on SnoWest and SnowMud that it was two of the people out there that were instrumental in organizing and leading the search. One of them featured in the video below.

Some of the things these guys are pulling off on sleds is really mind blowing.

I also cant wrap my mind around the fact that the 2 guys who died were buisness partners and at opposite ends of the slide. 1 at the top who was stuck and had somebody set it off on him, and the other on the bottom watching. Weird.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzA_CIMRi6M"]YouTube- Krazy Canadian Adventures 2[/ame]

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Originally Posted by Shorty_J

How is it fearmongering. . . .

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This is fearmongering:

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Originally Posted by backcountryislife

Those of you on skis should be frightened as well, if this was to take hold, it could have EXTREME ramifications in the backcountry community.

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(emphasis supplied).

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Originally Posted by Big Steve

This is fearmongering:

(emphasis supplied).

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Get over yourself, it's the INTERNET, they're opinions. And obviously I'm behind the curve anyhow, as fatfish points out, this is already being litigated. From a liability standpoint, I guess I could care less about how you feel or whether it scares you, but the idea that an avy triggered by another skier could put you in court scares the hell out of me. How many avy's ONLY affect the one who set it off?

Preliminary report from CAA is now available, with photos:

http://www.avalanche.ca/Default.aspx...9-373138567eba

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Originally Posted by backcountryislife

Get over yourself, it's the INTERNET, they're opinions. And obviously I'm behind the curve anyhow, as fatfish points out, this is already being litigated. From a liability standpoint, I guess I could care less about how you feel or whether it scares you, but the idea that an avy triggered by another skier could put you in court scares the hell out of me. How many avy's ONLY affect the one who set it off?

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Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think it's been suggested that anyone other than the person triggering an avy could be prosecuted...

I don't think we would see every avalanche prosecuted - if an investigation shows that the triggerer had knowledge,was carrying gear, and understands/acknowledges that an error may have been made, then I can't see it going anywhere (or being convicted if it did).

OTOH, if some dumbass (ie. no knowledge/gear/acknowledgement of mistake) endangers themselves or others, then I don't really have a problem with them getting charged.

It's kind of like driving your car on the wrong side of the road - if you're stupid enough to do it then you deserve to get charged. Those of us driving on the correct side of the road don't have anything to worry about. I'd rather they left the road open and tried to deter/target the idiots, than restrict things for everyone.

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Originally Posted by srsosbso

This is interesting. Certainly similiar (and quite reasonable) thinking is applied to various local slack-country skiing in these parts. I've read different enough things about this incident to probably have it wrong by this point, but is it true that the main event was on one of these sled-compacted slopes, whereas the avalanche occurred at a different spot? That might suggest that the main event was not quite so ridiculous an idea as it might have seemed, whereas heading up this other slope might have been ill-advised.

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As far as I know, and as they have in the past, the event moves from bowl/hill to bowl/hill - starting closest to the cabin/trailhead and moving farther away. Turbo is the farthest big hill away from the cabin before you go really far like Turtle which is in another area. Turbo being the slope that it is doesn't get much compaction due to a) how far away it is and b) the fact that it is a demanding hill for sleds. I believe that it doesn't get climbed too many times per year (especially in the winter) and I have heard that there has hardly been anyone on it this year (low snow?)

So ya - having all of the other events (drags, etc) on the other more used hills was probably relatively safe. If the new snow didn't slab up then it would have probably been fine (armchair qb'ing from 100km away here).

That said - you never know when you are going to hit a patch of the hill that hasn't had compaction so why risk it??...

I'm not particularly worried about the judicial system handling this.

If somebody has knowledge that the avalanche danger is very high and that person effectively cuts across a slope knowing full well that a slide is at least very possible or even likely to come down on others, and that slide does come down, what is the issue with bringing negligence (criminal [i.e. manslaughter or similar] or civil) charges against that person? If the person was ignorant, then they're unlikely to be found liable (criminally, at least). Knowledge or intent is the required "mens rea" in the U.S. for the majority of crimes (and I'd imagine it's the same thing in Canada due to the common grounding in English common law). There are a few "general intent" crimes, but bringing down a slide is probably not one of them. Civil liability is a different story, but that's not what people in this thread were worrying about when discussing the RCMP investigation.

This post is only addressing the individual who cut the slab... and not any potential organizer of the event.



Incidentally, shorty_J, I don't think charging somebody for knowingly ripping a slab that causes injury to others creates a disincentive to learning about safe backcountry practices. If you don't learn, you'll die. That's a fairly powerful counter to that disincentive.

BTW, if this didn't make any sense, my excuse is that I'm commemorating the patron saint of Eire.

Edit: Singel, knowledge is actually the key. If somebody, say a Level II certified sledder (I don't know what you guys have up there but AAIRE Level II is pretty decent down here), ripped a bowl knowing it was *likely* to hurt the people in the runout, then that person is that much more culpable than some dumbass flatlander who didn't know anything. I guess my point is more academic because I don't think I know anybody who would still do stupid shit knowing they were likely to bring thousands of tons of snow down on people, but given the CAC forecasts prior to this incident it seems that one would have to be lucky *not* to bring that slope down if you were highmarking it. Bottom line: If somebody can prove the guy that cut the slab loose knew that he was fairly likely to do so (and the consequences are obvious), what's the problem with charging him? If there was no knowledge, there'll be an investigation and nothing will happen. Shit, even if there was, I still think it's unlikely for charges to come down. I don't think I'm being a litigious American prick here (;)), I just think there should be consequences for one's actions.

RIP to the deceased.

LightRanger speaks well, for an Irishman.

Did I miss something, or is the trigger guy's wife still saying this was his second time riding in the BC? And his 'friends' let him try and ride something like that face? With 2X worth of riding?
Something doesn't add up there...

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Originally Posted by sftc

RIP to the deceased.

LightRanger speaks well, for an Irishman.

Did I miss something, or is the trigger guy's wife still saying this was his second time riding in the BC? And his 'friends' let him try and ride something like that face? With 2X worth of riding?
Something doesn't add up there...

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I think it might have been the downslope guy who was the greenhorn (not sure though).

Knowledge/intent is an interesting one here - not having avy training doesn't mean you shouldn't be aware that avalanches can occur. Does one need to be a firefighter to know that playing with fire is risky? Maybe not the best example, but it isn't exactly rocket science.

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Originally Posted by sftc

RIP to the deceased.

LightRanger speaks well, for an Irishman.

Did I miss something, or is the trigger guy's wife still saying this was his second time riding in the BC? And his 'friends' let him try and ride something like that face? With 2X worth of riding?
Something doesn't add up there...

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Not based on what I read: the widow of the guy who was high-marking is calling for tighter regulations for snowmobile events. There is no mention of this guy being a novice. The other victim (a spectator) was a novice: "Reynolds said her husband was not an avid sledder and that this year was only the second time that he had attended the event. "Kurtis was just a spectator who happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time," Reynolds said in a statement.""


Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/edmonton/st...#ixzz0iVPwLDSE

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Originally Posted by sftc

Did I miss something, or is the trigger guy's wife still saying this was his second time riding in the BC? And his 'friends' let him try and ride something like that face? With 2X worth of riding?
Something doesn't add up there...

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Shay, the man who died at the top of the hill, who was stuck & a guy rode above him, had been out twice (2 rides? 2 month long trips? not sure). I find it hard to believe that a guy with two trips would be trying to climb a monster like this, but I see it on a regular basis where I ride. I'll climb up the edge of the snow, practically in the dirt(windblown) to avoid avy danger, then some noob will crank right up the face right in the middle of the windload & get stuck. really bright.

Funny that the guy that really got people together for the rescue effort & stayed level headed was a guy called the Krazy Canadian... :biggrin:

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Originally Posted by backcountryislife

Shay, the man who died at the top of the hill, who was stuck & a guy rode above him, had been out twice (2 rides? 2 month long trips? not sure). I find it hard to believe that a guy with two trips would be trying to climb a monster like this, but I see it on a regular basis where I ride. I'll climb up the edge of the snow, practically in the dirt(windblown) to avoid avy danger, then some noob will crank right up the face right in the middle of the windload & get stuck. really bright.

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Did you not read the CBC article Van_skier linked to? Shay Snortland, who was stuck at the top, was an experienced sledder, Kurtis Reynolds, who had no experience, was at the bottom watching the show. Reynolds was a business partner of Snortland's.

What is alarming is the inability of so many people to read and understand a newspaper story, or listen to a TV or radio report and recognize the "angle" that the media outlet has decided to take.

I work in this business, and stories that are "alarmist" are like catnip for editors, so people need to relax and take with a grain of salt some of the stuff you are reading/hearing. Anyone worried about the government or the legal system over reacting to this incident should maybe stop doing that themselves.

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Originally Posted by Big Steve

This is fearmongering:

(emphasis supplied).

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Or you could emphasize these words instead...

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Originally Posted by backcountryislife

Those of you on skis should be frightened as well, if this was to take hold, it could have EXTREME ramifications in the backcountry community.

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Originally Posted by backcountryislife

Do keep in mind that when you look at the layout of the hill/bench, not EVERYBODY was sitting right in the slide path. Out of the 200 only 40-60 were hit, some of the people were maybe still not in a perfect location, but more relatively safe & better positioned considering the terrain.

I'm honestly not sure of how many were buried, from what I understand somewhere from 10-15 were dug out. If you've ever done any multiple burial scenarios (I sure as hell hope most all of you have) you understand the seriousness & difficulty of rescuing that many people. Heros? Hmm, I don't know. People who did a lot of things right after allowing something VERY serious to be done wrong, definitely. Scale aside, if you've ever been in a slide situation (been there a couple times with other groups that I saw) you'll see how hard it is to keep people's heads on straight.

I'm not saying they're a bunch of the best bc travelers out there, but I am saying that SOME credit needs to be given that they did as well as they did to get that many people to work together & rescue the rest of the group.


I'm curious to find out, after it all comes out, what kind of part avalanche packs played in this situation to keep some of these people alive as well.

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I fully agree... proper credit should be given for digging that many people up... it is indeed impressive. I still think it's contradictory to call people hero's for the two reasons that were listed in that post.

By the way, the quote given of you from that last forum is excellent... kudos to you for stepping up to make those comments! What kind of reaction did you get?

I don't know how to mention any more clearly that I still can't see how you can determine whether or not a person knows how like a slide is at any given point? The avi forecasts are vague generalizations by definition and INDIVIDUAL user responsibility and acceptance of risk is implied. I.e. anyone below the path of a large avalanche has to be responsbible for themselves if they don't like what's going on above them on the hill, and get out of the area if it's not safe.

Something would have to be used as a frame of reference to determine if a person causing a slide should have known it was likely to happen, and I can't think of anything else that could be used by the avi forecast. I don't like the idea of that.

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Originally Posted by Eldo

What is alarming is the inability of so many people to read and understand a newspaper story, or listen to a TV or radio report and recognize the "angle" that the media outlet has decided to take.

I work in this business, and stories that are "alarmist" are like catnip for editors, so people need to relax and take with a grain of salt some of the stuff you are reading/hearing. Anyone worried about the government or the legal system over reacting to this incident should maybe stop doing that themselves.

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Fair enough... I respect what you're saying. I still think it's worth talking about, I don't feel like a discussion is necessarily an over-reaction.

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Originally Posted by Shorty_J

By the way, the quote given of you from that last forum is excellent... kudos to you for stepping up to make those comments! What kind of reaction did you get?

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Honestly after the kinds of reactions that were on there before, I expected to get nailed to the cross, but as one of 3 (there actually MAAAY be 4) left leaning snowmobilers in this hemisphere... I'm kinda used to it.

Actually the response was overwhelmingly positive (got 1 neg feedback & about 20 positive), the problem was that the one guy that was stating the position that I had was a tool that was just doing it to piss people off, so everybody went the opposite way, someone just needed to turn the conversation around to get into more constructive conversation of what went wrong & how can we keep from repeating it.

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Originally Posted by PaulB

Did you not read the CBC article Van_skier linked to? Shay Snortland, who was stuck at the top, was an experienced sledder, Kurtis Reynolds, who had no experience, was at the bottom watching the show. Reynolds was a business partner of Snortland's.

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Sorry man, didn't mean to put BS info out there. Don't know how I got that switched around.:redface:


Dude, You've got to keep in mind, my brain has been clouded by 2 stroke smoke. And, being a snowmobiler... it's pretty amazing that I can even still read at all.

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Originally Posted by Eldo

What is alarming is the inability of so many people to read and understand a newspaper story, or listen to a TV or radio report and recognize the "angle" that the media outlet has decided to take.

I work in this business, and stories that are "alarmist" are like catnip for editors, so people need to relax and take with a grain of salt some of the stuff you are reading/hearing. Anyone worried about the government or the legal system over reacting to this incident should maybe stop doing that themselves.

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I'd be interested to know exactly what Canadian media's (especially the CBC's) "angle" or agenda on over reporting avy incidents is. This made front page top headline on CBC news for at least 4 days straight. In fact, even if a single skier gets caught in an avy it's national headline news. Is it just the sensationalism factor (maybe because of Michael Trudeau), or do you think someone within CBC has taken it upon themselves to turn public opinion in order to get more regulation enacted?

One thing to consider is that the people writing about this have absolutely no idea about what they are writing about, they will not be critical, and, if you read the CBC news frequently, can barely string a story together.


This thread needs to just die.
The summary is...

Better than 1000 sledders knew shit was dodgy and stayed home.

Two guys were dumb and unlucky and died.

The once that went out, and sat at the bottom of a bowl to watch invincible gnar core dudes rip are: incredibly lucky to be alive, stupid, and should be subject to scorn and criticism, because: they are/were ignorant or stupid, endangered others (SAR), and still don't get it.

The out cry to educate a group (not all but a large sub portion of the sledding pop) of people that are willing to spend a fuck load of cash but not put in the time to learn and be attentive to conditions and ride with personal responsibility, is ridiculous. There is a large portion of this population that will buy gear (avi packs at 1K a shot) to save their shit rather that put in the time to learn and adhere to a responsible b/c user paradigm.

You can argue and discuss all sorts of bull shit angles and litigation and responsibility but it does not matter, stupid people do stupid shit and some times they die.