the answer to "WTF is wrong with my boots?"

I like new toys, gizmos and gadgets, so I usully go hunt out the info on the new crap. I have found most of it (both the brands I sell and dont sell) it is the same thing, new marketing.
find the right boot fitter and they will LISTEN to you and help you find the right width, length, and flex, then tweak that for you.
you can only adjust so many things on a boot.
flex
F lean
canting (side to side lean)

other things that MOST people dont need/want/care about
walk mode or not
dynafit
vibram
replaceable soles
under boot planing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mntlion

I like new toys, gizmos and gadgets, so I usully go hunt out the info on the new crap. I have found most of it (both the brands I sell and dont sell) it is the same thing, new marketing.
find the right boot fitter and they will LISTEN to you and help you find the right width, length, and flex, then tweak that for you.
you can only adjust so many things on a boot.
flex
F lean
canting (side to side lean)

other things that MOST people dont need/want/care about
walk mode or not
dynafit
vibram
replaceable soles
under boot planing.

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You'd really stick a boot plane in the don't "need want care about" section?

for MOST people, under boot planing (true canting) yes. So many other things to do to a boot before that, and for most people it other things, that are cheaper, reversable, and simpler are much better options.
boot planeing is a great tool to have, but should be closer to the end of the options, not near the front.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by volklpowdermaniac

Question of etiquette to slightly hijack this thread...

Many of us, either a) can't afford to buy boots at full retail from our favorite boot fitters (or maybe many of us can...I can't, but I digress) OR b) can get the same boots through online sales, maggot deals, pro-form etc for a substantial savings
.

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a ski is a ski and a binding is a binding so I can buy them anywhere from anybody and mount them myself BUT I pay list for boots

I gotta wonder when you buy online after the shipping, maybe returning them to get the right size, paying the bootfitter, selling the boot a year later to repeat the process with a different boot how much $ did you REALLY net save ?

and with the amount of $$ you spend in the sport of skiing for a lift ticket gas to get there food vaca lodging what is the price of spending a little more $ for boots that fit, what is the price of poor performance & pain on the balance sheet ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

a ski is a ski and a binding is a binding so I can buy them anywhere from anybody and mount them myself BUT I pay list for boots

I gotta wonder when you buy online after the shipping, maybe returning them to get the right size, paying the bootfitter, selling the boot a year later to repeat the process with a different boot how much $ did you REALLY net save ?

and with the amount of $$ you spend in the sport of skiing for a lift ticket gas to get there food vaca lodging what is the price of spending a little more $ for boots that fit, what is the price of poor performance & pain on the balance sheet ?

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Starting to appreciate this more and more. Just dialoguing for off-season fodder.

Count EVERY little cost involved to make something that doesnt work right even the gas you burn driving across town IMO people spend a lot of money trying to save money

I paid list for new boots in whistler so did another crew member we figured since we were there for a month at the olympics what better place to buy and get boots that fit ... and we were right

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

Count EVERY little cost involved to make something that doesnt work right even the gas you burn driving across town IMO people spend a lot of money trying to save money

I paid list for new boots in whistler so did another crew member we figured since we were there for a month at the olympics what better place to buy and get boots that fit ... and we were right

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Agree, boots are the one piece of gear I have no problem paying retail on with a good bootfitter. Sure, getting a deal is great if they have some old models in stock, but hunting for the best price is better saved on other stuff. Steered a couple family members from out east toward Lou in Calgary (told em about mntlion as well but they wanted to buy while in Calgary before heading West) and they rave about the boots every time we talk skiing, and stop in to visit him on their trip out west every year.

Yeah lou is good if you can find a fitter where you can easily go back for fitting it can be good, my boots were great but my buddy went back to surefoot in whis a few times before she was happy AND she could ski there

Lou is good, sold me a set of conform'ables 100$ off when I was working in cowtown unfortunatley I needed some work on them but left before I could go back ... ended up doing it myself

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mntlion

for MOST people, under boot planing (true canting) yes. So many other things to do to a boot before that, and for most people it other things, that are cheaper, reversable, and simpler are much better options.
boot planeing is a great tool to have, but should be closer to the end of the options, not near the front.

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True, a planing is not reversible. But it really does make a difference in most skiers. There are indeed cheaper and simpler options (i.e. cuff alignment). And a boot plane can't even be considered unless the customer has a footbed and a cuff alignment ahead of time.

But a planing isn't something I would stick in the category of "most don't need." Honestly I would put it in the category of "most need, but don't understand." Most people (present company omitted of course) don't understand that planing isn't something only for racers. It will make EVERY skier better. A properly fitting boot helps for comfort. A properly canted boot helps immensely for skiability.

That's my opinion. I think that anyone who has skied in a flat boot vs. a canted (or "planed") boot would agree with me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snowy Spartan

True, a planing is not reversible. But it really does make a difference in most skiers. There are indeed cheaper and simpler options (i.e. cuff alignment). And a boot plane can't even be considered unless the customer has a footbed and a cuff alignment ahead of time.

But a planing isn't something I would stick in the category of "most don't need." Honestly I would put it in the category of "most need, but don't understand." Most people (present company omitted of course) don't understand that planing isn't something only for racers. It will make EVERY skier better. A properly fitting boot helps for comfort. A properly canted boot helps immensely for skiability.

That's my opinion. I think that anyone who has skied in a flat boot vs. a canted (or "planed") boot would agree with me.

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You make it sound like everyone should get their boots planed. I agree with mtnlion on this, its way down the list. Unless you live in a part of the country with lots of bowlegged cowboy skiers I can't see this needing to be done regularly. Plus, I wouldn't trust 90% of shops to do this correctly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kim Jong-un

You make it sound like everyone should get their boots planed. I agree with mtnlion on this, its way down the list. Unless you live in a part of the country with lots of bowlegged cowboy skiers I can't see this needing to be done regularly. Plus, I wouldn't trust 90% of shops to do this correctly.

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Knowing limited things about planing.... seems like it would be a poor choice if you ski three different bindings.... ie dukes, soli, fks, as I do, then you've got a boot that is planed but three different ramp angles on binders? seems like something would be off.

also, if you are on skis that flex different, are centered different, different widths under foot, have different binding ramp angles. the amount of planing may not be the same too?
Might be too that I'm out west, so edge hold is less an issue, and the ski can sink into the snow more to accommodate some of the need for planning?
glad it is working well for you however.

Planing for alignment can make a huge difference for those that need it. However, when you start throwing around words like "most" relative to the skiing public, it may help to consider what that means. The vast majority of the skiing public are not already in boots that have been fit properly, using footbeds that allow their foot to function naturally and dynamically, positioned well fore-aft and laterally in the boot, etc. For those that are (fit properly), planing may be the last piece of the puzzle to put in place. For many, though, the foregoing, done well, is often successful at neutralizing their stance enough to suffice. The very narrow margin for error, combined with the permanence of planing, necessitates an experienced, professional fitter who is a precise craftsman. This means that as a widespread approach to general fitting, it is not a workable addition to most bootshops. You can teach good fitting principles, but not everyone is capable of surgical skill excellence.

You know, everyone would drive safer in the winter, too, if we all drove Cross countrys, allroads or outbacks, but what are the odds that will happen? Not knocking planing...just being realistic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by volklpowdermaniac

Knowing limited things about planing.... seems like it would be a poor choice if you ski three different bindings.... ie dukes, soli, fks, as I do, then you've got a boot that is planed but three different ramp angles on binders? seems like something would be off.

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Ramp angle of bindings has nothing to do with how you'd plane your boots. Switching between different skis is exactly the reason you'd want to grind a correction into the sole of your boots, rather than shim under your bindings, etc. You customize your boots so your feet are comfortable and balanced. You don't customize your boots to match your bindings or ski flex or ski width.

I agree that there is something to be said for learning to ski with your bodies own physiology. If I'm dealing with a 60 year old who has been skiing for 55 years and is happy and comfortable with how he/she skis, I won't encourage them to plane some 2* correction in their boots, even if I feel that would make them look more balanced in their boots. But, the technology has it's place for certain skiers.

Also, I think the tools a bootfitter uses play a huge role in how big a proponent of boot planing they are. Someone using some retrofitted joiner is going to have to do a lot more work to get everything just right, compared to someone using a Keyser Boot Planer made by the Soze guys. A Keyser Boot Planer runs about $15,000 USD.

Looks like there is a maggot who is all over this stuff doing a traveling bootfit seminar:

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...Micro-Business

Quote:

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Originally Posted by weasel1

Planing for alignment can make a huge difference for those that need it. However, when you start throwing around words like "most" relative to the skiing public, it may help to consider what that means. The vast majority of the skiing public are not already in boots that have been fit properly, using footbeds that allow their foot to function naturally and dynamically, positioned well fore-aft and laterally in the boot, etc. For those that are (fit properly), planing may be the last piece of the puzzle to put in place. For many, though, the foregoing, done well, is often successful at neutralizing their stance enough to suffice. The very narrow margin for error, combined with the permanence of planing, necessitates an experienced, professional fitter who is a precise craftsman. This means that as a widespread approach to general fitting, it is not a workable addition to most bootshops. You can teach good fitting principles, but not everyone is capable of surgical skill excellence.

You know, everyone would drive safer in the winter, too, if we all drove Cross countrys, allroads or outbacks, but what are the odds that will happen? Not knocking planing...just being realistic.

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I guess this was my point. If you are going to go through the process, planing is another tool you can add. Sure it might not be "necessary." Neither is rocker in a ski, but in many situations, it can help/ make your day more enjoyable.

If you are going to get a boot fitted, I would assume it would be in a place where you trust their work/opinions. And if you trust them to do your boot, I would hope you would trust them to plane it as well. I know there aren't a whole lot of shops who can do that, but I would prefer to go to one of the best for my boots.

My original point sounded like I was drawing a hard line saying most people need to ski a planed boot. That was not my intention. It was that many people would benefit from a boot planing.

I have a question for all you boot fitting pros. I've done the shell test, and they seem to be the right size, a bit snug if anything - I have really low arches, so my instep is touching the shell where a normal arch would be above it. I'm using superfeet insoles to raise my arches a bit, so I don't think this is an issue. Boot is a Technica Dragon 110. Stock liners with ~30 days on them.

Anyway, 2 things:
1. Midway through last season I started getting pain on the bone on the inside of my ankle, the big bulgy one, and only on one foot. Might a better insole help or is some boot modification required? When I'm in the shell with no liner or insole, the bone is very close to the shell due to my flattish feet rolling the bone inward. Not quite touching, but 2-3 mm away and there's moderate pressure on the bone when I have the boot done up.
2. I have way too much forward lean (fell on my face when I straightened my knees). Took the plastic cuffs off the back of the liner, still too much. I have smallish calves. Is there any way to adjust forward lean? Shims or something under the toe?

Thanks for a very informative thread! I always felt like I was leaning way too far forward, but had no way to test it.

1) a more supportive footbed, or changing the footbed that you have might help. or making some more room in that part of the shell
2) maybe, depends on the boot. are you being pushed from right at the top of the boot, or more the whole back of the leg? sometimes doing up the power strap on the liner only will force your leg back more in the boot too.
I'm in banff, at soul ski and bike. call and make an appointment, and we can look at some solutions for both issues.

Sole planing for canting might not make your boots fit better, but once you do have a decent fit and good fore-aft stance, nothing imho will improve your skiing more than sole cant. The last 20% of adjustment will yield 80% of the improvement is sort of the rule when dealing with physical adjustments. True that always skiing in soft snow can compensate for being off in one's canting, but even in those circumstances you'll ski better with properly canted boots. I have very dissimilar legs when it comes to the curvature in the shin bones and always had a more powerful side due to not being canted correctly. I tried cuff canting with Strolz and canted soles with Daleboots both which helped a lot, but until I had my soles planed on a new pair of Lange RX 130s with the dedicated cants from Cantology I never was quite balanced and had to always think a bit about one side of my turns. If you're a off more than 0.5 degrees I would recommend having it done. My brother needed a 1.5 degree on one boot and 0.5 on his other one. After that correction it was nearly impossible to pick him out on the hill after skiing with him for years. His contortions on the 1.5 degree side totally disappeared. And a grind can be reversed with some work especially if you use a boot like the Lange RX130 with replaceable soles.

For boot fitting and canting in the greater SLC area I recommend "Ernie" Ernst at Boot Works in Park City.

I bought a pair of Tecnica Agent 120's a couple years ago on super clearance. The shell is the right size but they were super tight out of the box. I figured that I'd need some boot work but at the price I paid for the boot I figured I could have a lot of bootfitting done and still save money. In hindsight, that logic didn't pan out too well.

I went to a bootfitter who quickly identified a need for custom insoles. This didn't surprise me, the custom insoles in my touring boots were worth every penny and then some. The custom insoles he made resulted in a huge improvement but weren't enough. We did some aggressive toe punching which helped a lot but I was still having trouble. More work and still trouble.

Where I'm at now is that when I put the boots on they feel perfect. There's no need for me to even buckle the toe buckles while I ski but they don't pinch anywhere and they're very comfortable and best of all they ski great. There's only one problem. After the first run my big toes go numb and by midday I have toe bang so bad that both big toes are black under the nail from bruising. The bootfitter that I'm working with seems great but at this point it feels like fixing the problem is a needle in the haystack thing sort of thing.

So my question is this, do I keep paying for bootfitting work to be done, do I go to a different bootfitter for a second opinion, or do I pay full retail for a new boot at a shop that will do what it takes to make sure that the boot they sell me fits. It feels like the decision of whether to fix the old car or buy a new one. Should it really be that hard to fix a boot that makes your toes go numb?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

I bought a pair of Lange 130RS Wides from a bootfitter. We did all grinding and punching that was necessaryto make trhem fit, and despite the liner being really tight at first, the boots fit great.
My problem is, that in each and every boot i owned up to this point, including the new Lange, i always had pain in the head of the fibula (i don´t know if that is the correct term, please correct me if it´s not) after a few days of skiing.
I´m trying really hard to stay centered on the ski and put the pressure on the tongue while skiing, cause i figuered that the pain starts to get worse with every off balance landing or situation i have to go in the backseat. It feels as if my leg wants to snap in two on the lower part.
I went to the doctor a few days ago and he identified some changes in the bone structure near the head of the fibula. His guess was, that from constant irritation the changes in bone structure emerged and thats what is causing the pain.
I´ll have to wait till some more MRT and stuff is done and the doctor can be sure about all, but till then i want to do everything to keep this thing from happening again.

My question now is, has anybody ever had a problem like this, or have you ever had any customer with the same problem?
I was thinking about getting a foam liner, to prevent every last bit of movement in the boot, because that seems to be where the pain comes from.
Don´t get me wrong. The boot is definitely the correct size and does fit quite well. It´s just that in some situations like off balance landings in the backseat there is some movement of the foot in the shell, which seems to add quite some leverage to my lower leg.
The other thing is, that my calf muscles seem to end very abrupt and the point where they "end" is the place where the pain sits.
I thought, that maybe a foam liner could help by fillig the resulting gap between shell and lower leg?

Also the problem is less if i buckle my boots really really tight up to the point where i barely can´t take it any more at the end of a run.
I think that might confirm my impression that some really tight fitting boots might help prevent the problem.

I am definitely going to see my bootfitter about this problem, but having some suggestions from other experienced people would certainly aid him in solving this problem, which seems to be not that common.

I´m desperate for any kind of advice, cause the doctor told me to stay away from the ski boots until we have everything figuered out! :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Loki87

I bought a pair of Lange 130RS Wides from a bootfitter. We did all grinding and punching that was necessaryto make trhem fit, and despite the liner being really tight at first, the boots fit great.
My problem is, that in each and every boot i owned up to this point, including the new Lange, i always had pain in the head of the fibula (i don´t know if that is the correct term, please correct me if it´s not) after a few days of skiing.
I´m trying really hard to stay centered on the ski and put the pressure on the tongue while skiing, cause i figuered that the pain starts to get worse with every off balance landing or situation i have to go in the backseat. It feels as if my leg wants to snap in two on the lower part.
I went to the doctor a few days ago and he identified some changes in the bone structure near the head of the fibula. His guess was, that from constant irritation the changes in bone structure emerged and thats what is causing the pain.
I´ll have to wait till some more MRT and stuff is done and the doctor can be sure about all, but till then i want to do everything to keep this thing from happening again.

My question now is, has anybody ever had a problem like this, or have you ever had any customer with the same problem?
I was thinking about getting a foam liner, to prevent every last bit of movement in the boot, because that seems to be where the pain comes from.
Don´t get me wrong. The boot is definitely the correct size and does fit quite well. It´s just that in some situations like off balance landings in the backseat there is some movement of the foot in the shell, which seems to add quite some leverage to my lower leg.
The other thing is, that my calf muscles seem to end very abrupt and the point where they "end" is the place where the pain sits.
I thought, that maybe a foam liner could help by fillig the resulting gap between shell and lower leg?

Also the problem is less if i buckle my boots really really tight up to the point where i barely can´t take it any more at the end of a run.
I think that might confirm my impression that some really tight fitting boots might help prevent the problem.

I am definitely going to see my bootfitter about this problem, but having some suggestions from other experienced people would certainly aid him in solving this problem, which seems to be not that common.

I´m desperate for any kind of advice, cause the doctor told me to stay away from the ski boots until we have everything figuered out! :(

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Out of curiosity, how is your dorsiflexion? I ask because I am in the beginning stages of working through backseat issues that are likely causing shin issues (in addition to making me ski like garbage). My hypothesis after researching is that it starts with my lack of dorsiflexion. I'll likely post with more detail soon in hopes of getting some specific feedback from some of the solid boot fitter types (which I am not). Just wondering of you may be dealing with a common root to a similar problem.

As i understand it, with limited dorsiflexion, you can´t bend the ankle forward enough. Is that right?
If so, then that doesn´t seem to be the problem for me, because when skiing, i can put pressure on the tongue and actually flex the boot (not much, but i suppose thats quite normal considering my weight and the 130 flex, but feels good to me) so that i actually can ride pretty good for most of the time.
But as i said, the problem starts after those few inevitable backseat hits which occur, when you get thrown in the backseat because of that unexpected pile of hard snow in your runout, a backseat landing or something like that.
It´s not that i ski in the backseat all the time, but rather that when i get tossed back, the pain starts and that is what causes me to get thrown back more often because my legs won´t hold up. From there on it´s like a circle of being tossed back, legs starting to hurt more, getting tossed back some more, legs hurting some more and so on.
I hope some experts might chime in on this and maybe have some ideas.

I would appreciate it, if you could give some feedback after seeing your boot fitter. I haven´t had a chance to go and see mine, but right now I´m still optimistic he might be able to offer some solution.
That guy did a lot of atomic´s worldcup racer´s boots a few years ago and helped develop their race-shell, so he definitely knows his stuff. I just hope it´s not a that uncommon problem.

I'm getting pissed off with my boots right now. I have a pair of Garmont Megarides with Scarpa overlap liners and for a couple years now, they've been dialed in PERFECTLY. I could skin for long days in warmth and comfort and they fit nicely for skiing down too.

The last two outings, my right boot is murdering my foot. It's sawed a hole in the top of my little toe, and ripped a blister in the side of my foot right below my little toe. Two hours out and my foot is being chewed up.

I suspect the liner has packed out a bit and the added space is allowing my foot to move a bit and rub. Is the solution a re-cooking? New liners? Use a foot-bed? I HATE my boots not fitting properly...

...and my local fitter that dialed them in back when is gone... :(

sounds like a new liner might help, how many days on the old ones?

STP has some closeout scarpa liners I think, or call intuition directly